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post #2401 of 2429 Unread Yesterday, 02:49 AM
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You probably forgot to open madTPG.exe.
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post #2402 of 2429 Unread Yesterday, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillbruch View Post
You probably forgot to open madTPG.exe.
thxz. that was it
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
I ran a 9404 patch set profile today in onscreen mode with the idea of making non BT 1886 LUT. Made two Gamma 2.2 and one Rec. 709 2.22 gamma LUT's. I am happy to report they all seem to be ok, but I just ran a 92 point measurement report.
I should point out that I did not enable black point compensation when I ran the profile.

So unless I just got lucky it seems you don't have to enable black point compensation when meter is in on screen mode for a VT60 plasma.
When the black level of a screen is very low, and I guess that is the case with your plasma, you may not notice a problem because the clipping (if any) will be so minimal that no visible picture information will be lost. So yes, in that case you may be fine without BPC when targeting a non-BT.1886 gamma curve.

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From what I think you are saying, the only way to make a Gamma 2.xx 3DLUT is when running a profile you must check (enable) black point compensation first. ?
Currently, yes, although keep in mind that a "pure" 2.2 is not possible unless the display black is zero, so this will effectively give you an output offset curve (which will be very similar to a "pure" 2.2 curve though, especially if the display black level is very low). Graeme is developing a different approach to target such an output offset curve, which will eliminate the need for BPC, and will also become selectable in dispcalGUI when it's ready. This is currently not available in binary form though.

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If you don't enable black point compensation before you run a profile the only type of 3DLUT you can make is BT. 1886.
Well, you can still target a different curve by using one of the Rec709_Gamma2.x source profiles, but depending on the display black level, this may cause clipping, artifacts and colorization (as mentioned above, it's definitely possible to not notice such problems if the display black level is very low).

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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
For Tone Curve would you use Rec.709 or Gamma.?
I'm assuming you're talking about the calibration step (video card gamma tables)? I don't think I'd use the Rec. 709 tone curve, atleast not without ambient adjustment, because it is far from a BT.1886 or gamma 2.x curve. I'd use BT.1886 or a gamma 2.x curve.

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Ater the profile when creating a LUT what would you use for source profile, enable or disable Apply tone response curve. If Apply tone response curve is enabled what setting would you use.??
Personally I mostly use BT.1886, so source Rec709.icm with "Apply tone response curve" set to BT.1886, but 2.2 "relative" instead of 2.4 "absolute".
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Originally Posted by Stillbruch View Post
Now, I still have to get rid of that sort-of yellowish glimmer: http://picload.org/view/lpcoacr/scre...pc-hc.jpg.html ... if you watch closely, you should see that the "movie" (the intro should actually be totally black) is brighter/yellower than the black border of MPC-HC. RGB-Range is set up correctly, btw.
Please post the settings that you used when creating that 3D LUT.
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@graeme , fhoech, zoyd:

I'm wondering if maybe the madTPG/madVR API should automatically start madTPG.exe on the local PC if the calibration software tries to connect to madTPG and can't find it anywhere on the LAN? Or alternatively I could add a new API to manually start madTPG.exe on the local PC which you could then call if you like. What do you think?
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Just to say quickly to follow up on our recent discussion that Calman now supports MadVR natively. There is a new MadVR option in the cube generator that creates a 65 points LUT compatible with MadVR. The slight levels shift issue when the 64 points LUT was converted with another tool is gone. Results are excellent (on my JVC rs-45 all dEs under 3 and average under 1 dE 2000 for the colorchecker SG). As far as I know, only Ultimate and Studio support MadVR at this stage, but it might change. At the moment a new displays file is needed, but it will be included in the next official build. Thanks again for all the help to those involved in resolving this.

Last edited by Manni01; Yesterday at 10:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Please post the settings that you used when creating that 3D LUT.
collink.exe -v -qh -G -iaw -r65 -n -3m -et -Et -IB:2.4 -a "Std madVR-ti madVR 2014-07-11 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.cal" Rec709.icm "Std madVR-ti madVR 2014-07-11 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.icm" Std.icm

I followed the instructions as described in post 1, except: I used the madVR test pattern with 20% dark region emphasis and Rec709.icm preconditioning profile. I also used the GUI to create the 3D LUT, not the command line - I copied the above from the log.

By the way: The image doesn't look that washed out after all. Turns out I was looking at the TV from almost 80° angle while calibrating - the viewing angle of that model isn't so great, so the picture looked atrocious. Sitting in front of it, everything looks so much better. I'm impressed . And that yellow shimmer is only noticable when looking at the screen from an angle.
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@Manni01 , and thanks to you for pushing for madVR support in Calman!

Back to ArgyllCMS (in this thread) now, though...
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Originally Posted by Stillbruch View Post
collink.exe -v -qh -G -iaw -r65 -n -3m -et -Et -IB:2.4 -a "Std madVR-ti madVR 2014-07-11 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.cal" Rec709.icm "Std madVR-ti madVR 2014-07-11 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.icm" Std.icm

I followed the instructions as described in post 1, except: I used the madVR test pattern with 20% dark region emphasis and Rec709.icm preconditioning profile. I also used the GUI to create the 3D LUT, not the command line - I copied the above from the log.
Thanks. The only thing that I can think of right now that could lift the black level is the calibration.

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Originally Posted by Stillbruch View Post
By the way: The image doesn't look that washed out after all. Turns out I was looking at the TV from almost 80° angle while calibrating - the viewing angle of that model isn't so great, so the picture looked atrocious. Sitting in front of it, everything looks so much better. I'm impressed . And that yellow shimmer is only noticable when looking at the screen from an angle.
Ok, that sounds reasonable. In case the black level raise still bothers you, you could try to skip calibration ("just profile").
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Back to ArgyllCMS (in this thread) now, though...

Of course
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Thanks. The only thing that I can think of right now that could lift the black level is the calibration.
(...)
Ok, that sounds reasonable. In case the black level raise still bothers you, you could try to skip calibration ("just profile").
It doesn't bother me that much, but it would still be nice to know if there was a way to avoid the elevated black level without losing the calibration. By the way, skipping calibration and just profiling ... how is that different from creating a 3D LUT-file without the "-a" option? I do understand that profiling takes the previously run calibration somehow into account.

Nevertheless, thanks to everyone for helping me.

EDIT
The black level raise seem to manifest on all devices I've calibrated/profiled, even if it is extremely subtle. Either I'm doing something wrong or the i1Display Pro is messing with me.

Last edited by Stillbruch; Yesterday at 11:35 AM.
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@fhoech


With regards to BPC, I have a Pioneer Kuro 600m, which measures around 0.0004 for it's black level, I presume there would be no benefit from using BPC? even though it's not exactly 0 level black like Oled.


Did you find anything with regards to the profiling dispread crash, as you know the command line works fine to competition, so presume a problem with the GUI?


Thanks.
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Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post
With regards to BPC, I have a Pioneer Kuro 600m, which measures around 0.0004 for it's black level, I presume there would be no benefit from using BPC? even though it's not exactly 0 level black like Oled.
To be on the safe side I'd still re-generate the profile with BPC on. Just enable BPC, make sure the rest of the profiling settings are ok, then choose "Generate profile from measurement data..." in the "Options" menu and select your existing non-BPC profile. The reverse also works should you later decide that you want BT.1886 instead.

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Did you find anything with regards to the profiling dispread crash, as you know the command line works fine to competition, so presume a problem with the GUI?
No solution so far. Are you using a 64-bit version of Argyll CMS by chance? (if you're using the Zero Install version of dispcalGUI under a 64-bit Windows, this will be the case - I may need to change that)
One problem that I didn't anticipate is that the 64-bit Argyll CMS seemingly cannot interact with the 32-bit madTPG process, but this shouldn't crash the Argyll CMS tools (instead it should pop the message "Error - new_disprd() failed with 'Window Access Failed'").
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm wondering if maybe the madTPG/madVR API should automatically start madTPG.exe on the local PC if the calibration software tries to connect to madTPG and can't find it anywhere on the LAN? Or alternatively I could add a new API to manually start madTPG.exe on the local PC which you could then call if you like. What do you think?
I think that could be useful. I'd prefer an automatic start obviously as this presumably requires less (zero?) work on my and Graeme's side
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
To be on the safe side I'd still re-generate the profile with BPC on. Just enable BPC, make sure the rest of the profiling settings are ok, then choose "Generate profile from measurement data..." in the "Options" menu and select your existing non-BPC profile. The reverse also works should you later decide that you want BT.1886 instead.

Great thank you, BPC rate setting is at default 4%, could you explain the rate setting for me, what does it actually do?


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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
No solution so far. Are you using a 64-bit version of Argyll CMS by chance? (if you're using the Zero Install version of dispcalGUI under a 64-bit Windows, this will be the case - I may need to change that)
One problem that I didn't anticipate is that the 64-bit Argyll CMS seemingly cannot interact with the 32-bit madTPG process, but this shouldn't crash the Argyll CMS tools (instead it should pop the message "Error - new_disprd() failed with 'Window Access Failed'").

No, kept to the 32bit files and I installed dispcal with the recommended general installer executable, which did place the D-cal and zeroinstall shortcut in my desktop, so yes 0 install.


I've resorted to manual .ti3 creation for now.


Os is win 8.1 x64.

Last edited by -Hitman-; Yesterday at 01:59 PM.
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Great thank you, BPC rate setting is at default 4%, could you explain the rate setting for me, what does it actually do?
Wait, I think we're talking about different things. I was talking about "black point compensation" (a profiling option), while you seem to be talking about "black point correction" (a calibration option).

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No, kept to the 32bit files and I installed with the general installer executable, which did place the zeroinstall shortcut in my desktop but not used it.

I've resorted to manual .ti3 creation for now.

Os is win 8.1 x64.
Hmm. Actually, I was wrong. The 64-bit version of Argyll CMS 1.6.3 seems to work fine with the latest madVR (0.87.10) on my Windows 7 x64 test system.
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Wait, I think we're talking about different things. I was talking about "black point compensation" (a profiling option), while you seem to be talking about "black point correction" (a calibration option).
Sorry my bad, I was looking at the wrong part, I did mean BL compensation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@graeme , fhoech, zoyd:

I'm wondering if maybe the madTPG/madVR API should automatically start madTPG.exe on the local PC if the calibration software tries to connect to madTPG and can't find it anywhere on the LAN? Or alternatively I could add a new API to manually start madTPG.exe on the local PC which you could then call if you like. What do you think?
Yes. Adding an API is better, since it conceals MadVR installation details from the caller.
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
When the black level of a screen is very low, and I guess that is the case with your plasma, you may not notice a problem because the clipping (if any) will be so minimal that no visible picture information will be lost. So yes, in that case you may be fine without BPC when targeting a non-BT.1886 gamma curve.


Currently, yes, although keep in mind that a "pure" 2.2 is not possible unless the display black is zero, so this will effectively give you an output offset curve (which will be very similar to a "pure" 2.2 curve though, especially if the display black level is very low). Graeme is developing a different approach to target such an output offset curve, which will eliminate the need for BPC, and will also become selectable in dispcalGUI when it's ready. This is currently not available in binary form though.


Well, you can still target a different curve by using one of the Rec709_Gamma2.x source profiles, but depending on the display black level, this may cause clipping, artifacts and colorization (as mentioned above, it's definitely possible to not notice such problems if the display black level is very low).


I'm assuming you're talking about the calibration step (video card gamma tables)? I don't think I'd use the Rec. 709 tone curve, atleast not without ambient adjustment, because it is far from a BT.1886 or gamma 2.x curve. I'd use BT.1886 or a gamma 2.x curve.


Personally I mostly use BT.1886, so source Rec709.icm with "Apply tone response curve" set to BT.1886, but 2.2 "relative" instead of 2.4 "absolute".
Thank you, that explains a lot.

As It stands now using Argyii, BT 1886 set at 2.4 Absolute using source Rec709.icm works the best. Using Gamma 2.2, 2.22 setting comes out close to BT. 1886 2.2 and looks good in the measurement report, but imo BT. 1886 2.4A is the only way to go using Argyii. That is for my VT60 plasma, and not using the Black switch as I setup in my post.

I have been meaning to run a profile using LS and my Lumagen 2041, now that Lumagen has fixed the patches and LS supports it. So I will run a 9000+ patch set using LS and gamma 2.2 and compare to Argyii BT1886 3DLUT.
That's not to say I am unhappy using madTPG, it seems to work better than LS/CM's internal patch generators, along with the switch in dispcal to reset the video card to linear.

ss
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
To be on the safe side I'd still re-generate the profile with BPC on. Just enable BPC, make sure the rest of the profiling settings are ok, then choose "Generate profile from measurement data..." in the "Options" menu and select your existing non-BPC profile. The reverse also works should you later decide that you want BT.1886 instead.
I will try this, thanks.
Update
Just remade my profile per your instructions and inputted the new LUT into eecolor.
Ran a few basic test patterns no measurements yet. Seems to work well.

Last edited by sillysally; Yesterday at 11:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Wait, I think we're talking about different things. I was talking about "black point compensation" (a profiling option), while you seem to be talking about "black point correction" (a calibration option).


Hmm. Actually, I was wrong. The 64-bit version of Argyll CMS 1.6.3 seems to work fine with the latest madVR (0.87.10) on my Windows 7 x64 test system.
Just saw this post, and yes I have np using 64-bit version Argyll CMS 1.6.3/Beta 1.7, with madVR/TPG (0.87.10) and dispcalGUI 2.1.0.8. Plus 0 installer.

I also have Windows 7 prox64 bit.

ss
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Generally speaking, how plasma should be calibrated so that ABL is minimized and the gamma curve will be accurate, window sizes, etc..?
What settings in madTPG are Standard for accurate calibration of a plasma TV, Window size %, Background darkness %, Linear/Gamma...

Are the window patterns in the AVS709HD disc are good enough if not using madTPG?
APL vs Windows?
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Quote:
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Generally speaking, how plasma should be calibrated so that ABL is minimized and the gamma curve will be accurate, window sizes, etc..?
What settings in madTPG are Standard for accurate calibration of a plasma TV, Window size %, Background darkness %, Linear/Gamma...

Are the window patterns in the AVS709HD disc are good enough if not using madTPG?
APL vs Windows?
See the first post in this thread to setup dispcal and madVR, it works for plasma's also.

Using madTPG for my plasma, I use window size of 8%, Black background see link(MadVR - ArgyllCMS). Linear for video card.

AVS709HD will not work for profiling, you would need to use madTPG as your pattern source.

ss
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@fhoech


I don't know if this is intentional within the GUI but it looks like a small bug to me and adds confusion to the user with regards to the "Profiling" naming convention, if one is using the calibration part and selects Gamma (instead of REC 1886)- 2.x - absolute, the profile naming still refers to and remains BT 1886 S but if changed from absolute to relative it reflects the true gamma label to "2.4".


I find it confusing for the user especially when going back to a "pre" cal as I had to double check my profile was created with the correct settings after seeing BT1886 included in the label and really should be kept separate as power law transfer is separate/not connected to BT 1886?


Maybe also something can be done to keep calibrate and profile separate, so if the user creates a profile only, it's label will not contain calibration details or possible for the a user to easily create his own defined name eg. under the "profile name variables" ad an editable window containing the actual profile name rather than the current fixed overlay one?
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Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post
I don't know if this is intentional within the GUI but it looks like a small bug to me and adds confusion to the user with regards to the "Profiling" naming convention, if one is using the calibration part and selects Gamma (instead of REC 1886)- 2.x - absolute, the profile naming still refers to and remains BT 1886 S but if changed from absolute to relative it reflects the true gamma label to "2.4".

I find it confusing for the user especially when going back to a "pre" cal as I had to double check my profile was created with the correct settings after seeing BT1886 included in the label and really should be kept separate as power law transfer is separate/not connected to BT 1886?
If the profile name (provided you use the %cg placeholder variable) says Rec. 1886, then it is Rec. 1886. Note that the Rec. 1886 selection in the tone response dropdown is just a shortcut for Gamma 2.4 "absolute" with 0% black output offset.

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Maybe also something can be done to keep calibrate and profile separate, so if the user creates a profile only, it's label will not contain calibration details or possible for the a user to easily create his own defined name eg. under the "profile name variables" ad an editable window containing the actual profile name rather than the current fixed overlay one?
I'm not sure what you mean. You can change the profile name to anything you want, you don't even have to use any placeholder variables if you don't want to.
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Thanks for the explanation, that makes things clearer.


So if I want to profile based on powerlaw 2.2~2.5, this is achieved (removing any reference/connection with 1886), I presume selecting Gamma+matrix?


Could you explain the "3xGamma"?


Ty.

Last edited by -Hitman-; Today at 04:52 AM.
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Thanks for the explanation, that makes things clearer.

So if I want to profile based on powerlaw 2.2~2.5, how is this achieved (removing any reference/connection) with 1886, I presume I select Gamma+matrix?

Ty.
For most accurate results, use XYZ LUT profile type and a large testchart. Enable black point compensation, then use source Rec709_Gamma2.x.icm with "Apply BT.1886 mapping" disabled when creating the 3D LUT.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
For most accurate results, use XYZ LUT profile type and a large testchart. Enable black point compensation, then use source Rec709_Gamma2.x.icm with "Apply BT.1886 mapping" disabled when creating the 3D LUT.
I've created my first 1399 point lut the other evening with the XYZ+ matrix and left bt1886 unchecked but with only the Gamma - rec709.icm, however really pleased with the results, I will now do another with the additional settings, thank you.


What's the difference between XYZ matrix and XYZ swapped matrix?


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I've created my first 1399 point lut the other evening with the XYZ+ matrix and left bt1886 unchecked but with only the Gamma - rec709.icm, however really pleased with the results, I will now do another with the additional settings, thank you.
Note that using Rec709.icm without BT.1886 mapping will result in a relatively bright picture (overall gamma around 1.9).

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What's the difference between XYZ matrix and XYZ swapped matrix?
For 3D LUT use, the only difference is that XYZ LUT + swapped matrix will be faster to generate. For an explanation of the differences when used as normal display profile, see the dispcalGUI documentation or Argyll CMS documentation.

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Note that using Rec709.icm without BT.1886 mapping will result in a relatively bright picture (overall gamma around 1.9).

Yes i realise this now but it was a first test run anyway, I will reprocess the profile-to-3dlut using the correct icm, just to see how it looks.


Currently running a new profile with the amended setting/s using the max available massive test chart for gamma 2.2 rec709.


I'll need to also read up now on test charts/settings and how I can create a custom file and increase the no. of patches etc..


Thank you again for the help!




Edit: I must have used the correct gamma 2.x rec709.icm as it's the same when I've re-done the lut process, twas late night at the time of creation and just forgot.

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