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post #2521 of 2854 Old 08-12-2014, 10:12 AM
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Feel free to create a bug entry in the madVR bug tracker, but you should be aware of that I won't have a multi-monitor setup to test with for probably the next 4 months, so I won't be able to do anything about it anytime soon.
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post #2522 of 2854 Old 08-12-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Feel free to create a bug entry in the madVR bug tracker, but you should be aware of that I won't have a multi-monitor setup to test with for probably the next 4 months, so I won't be able to do anything about it anytime soon.


Ok no problem.


Thanks M.
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post #2523 of 2854 Old 08-12-2014, 06:28 PM
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Thumbs up 3DLUT report

madshi, msdVR is installed as well as the DispacalGUI and madTPG on the same PC. I do not remember the order of running the dispcalGUI and madTPG.
However, I have successfully created the 3DLUT following the guide.
I will share the workaround and some measurements charts.
First, I have installed the latest dispcalGUI (beta).
Then I have figured out that I have missed the "Dark region emphasis" change while creating the testchart - it was 0% on mine.
So I created the new testchart with 20% "Dark region emphasis" and passed the measurements without a problem.
I have rolled back to the 2.1 latest stable dispcalGUI and ran the same calibration again - passed it. But now I got an error during the profiling process : "Error - test_crt returned error code 3 ".
I do not know what that error means, so I have just restated the profiling and in a couple of hours it has passed successfully.
3DLUT was created with no issues.

So here are some charts from my setup :PC with AMD HD7970 -> Anthem MRX 300 -> JVC X30 (no CMS) -> Carada 96' Criterion Brilliant White Projection Screen.
All the measurements were taken with DTP-94 color meter with ColorHCFR with AVS HD 709 patterns (MP4).
The screenshots on the left are the measurements of the hardware calibrated projector without the 3DLUT. The screenshots on the right are the same projector with the created and applied 3DLUT on madVR.

Greyscale:


Primaries:


Luminance:


Gamma:


RGB:


Color temperatures:


CIE diagramm:


As you can see the grey scale delta E was decreased but the delta E of the primaries/secondaries was in fact increased but still to the acceptable level.
The gamma was increased as well. Overall the results with the 3DLUT applied are polished more than expected and the charts are almost flat.
The primaries/secondaries delta E might be the price paid for that.
Since I have used the controllers on my projector to calibrate it prior to the dispcalGUI calibration, I am curious to see how accurate is the dispcalGUI calibration and the madVR with 3DLUT on the less calibrated devices.

madshi and all the involved souls, thank you for the amazing work and the great tools you share with us. Thumbs UP !
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post #2524 of 2854 Old 08-12-2014, 07:33 PM
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IceB.

If you are using Argyll/dispcal, you may want to use the measurement report found in dispcal>Tools.

I use the xl.ti1, measures 490 points.

ss
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post #2525 of 2854 Old 08-15-2014, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
If you are using Argyll/dispcal, you may want to use the measurement report found in dispcal>Tools.
Could we please establish that when talking about "dispcal", we should refer to the Argyll CMS dispcal.exe command line utility, and when talking about dispcalGUI, we refer to dispcalGUI (obviously)? Things get really confusing otherwise . If you don't want to type out "dispcalGUI" and want a (even) shorter form, I propose the abbreviation "DCG" (or "dcGUI", probably a little more concise).

--

On another note, I've updated the dispcalGUI Beta snapshot to 2.1.1.5. This continues the moderate visual overhaul I've started to give the user interface in 2.1.1.4, already has support for upcoming Argyll CMS 1.7 features (provisional), and I'm aiming for a stable release soon. Until then, feel free to try the snapshot (changes from last stable release) if you want. If you used the 0install setup, you can switch over to the "testing" version to get the snapshot. Alternatively, download a standalone version of the snapshot (for Windows) as zipfile.
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post #2526 of 2854 Old 08-15-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Could we please establish that when talking about "dispcal", we should refer to the Argyll CMS dispcal.exe command line utility, and when talking about dispcalGUI, we refer to dispcalGUI (obviously)? Things get really confusing otherwise . If you don't want to type out "dispcalGUI" and want a (even) shorter form, I propose the abbreviation "DCG" (or "dcGUI", probably a little more concise).
Now I am confused.

So is the proper way to refer to what I posted above, dispcalGUI. Leave Argyll CMS out.
Or should I have said, Argyll CMS dispcal.exe command line utility when referring to dispcalGUI.?

ss
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post #2527 of 2854 Old 08-16-2014, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
So is the proper way to refer to what I posted above, dispcalGUI.
Yes, that's what I meant (my remark wasn't aimed at you specifically, more as general comment. In your above post it was apparent that you meant dispcalGUI).
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post #2528 of 2854 Old 08-28-2014, 01:30 PM
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In the guide on the first post is it OK to use the 64 bit version of ArgyllCMS and then use the 64 bit version of MPC-HC or should I scrap what I have done so far and redo it all with the 32 bit version of ArgyllCMS and use the 32 bit version of MPC-HC? Sorry if it is a silly question, am new to this stuff but just wasn't sure if the first post has been updated since possible 64 bit versions may be supported through that chain.

Also I followed everything on that first page guide (with the exception I did use 64 bit ArgyllCMS) and everything seemed to go through. Only part I wasn't sure what to do was after the 'calibrate and profile' completed I wasn't sure what to hit, I think the options were 'Dont install, install and apply, cancel' ....something along those lines. I tried the Install and apply and gave me an error about applying to a virtual device so I just hit Dont Install.

Anyhow still reading up and learning, hopefully will be able to check out a report of the calibration tonight and see how it went. Great tools!
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post #2529 of 2854 Old 08-28-2014, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystigiandoll View Post
In the guide on the first post is it OK to use the 64 bit version of ArgyllCMS and then use the 64 bit version of MPC-HC or should I scrap what I have done so far and redo it all with the 32 bit version of ArgyllCMS and use the 32 bit version of MPC-HC? Sorry if it is a silly question, am new to this stuff but just wasn't sure if the first post has been updated since possible 64 bit versions may be supported through that chain.
MPC HC has nothing to do with creating the 3d lut. and there is no 64 bit madVR version. 64 bit argyllcms works totally fine because there is a 64 bit madTPG. and the created 3d lut doesn't care about 64/32 bit it's not a program it's a LUT a 3D LUT. i created mine with a 64 bit version of argyllCMS.

Quote:
Also I followed everything on that first page guide (with the exception I did use 64 bit ArgyllCMS) and everything seemed to go through. Only part I wasn't sure what to do was after the 'calibrate and profile' completed I wasn't sure what to hit, I think the options were 'Dont install, install and apply, cancel' ....something along those lines. I tried the Install and apply and gave me an error about applying to a virtual device so I just hit Dont Install.
this guide is about creating 3D lut not for general use. so everything is working as intended. you just have to create the 3 D LUT from this.
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post #2530 of 2854 Old 08-28-2014, 03:14 PM
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Yap sounds good. Just stumbled on some older posts when 64/32 bit had some compatibility issues so just double checking to make sure I don't shoot myself in the foot right away. As for the media player, I know it doesn't have anything to do with this set up, just another old thread that 64 bit player didn't work with madvr but I can deal with media players later, just good to know everything so far is right! Thanks!
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post #2531 of 2854 Old 08-29-2014, 03:25 AM
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@ Florian, Graeme

Thank you VERY much for adding Black Output Offset to the 3DLUT creation in the latest Beta.
Now I can compress the blacks to my liking and watching environment.

Using Offset of 0% (aka BT.1886) gives me too elevated first few steps.
Using Offset of 100% completely crushed (turned to black) the first 3-4 steps.

I have created several 3D LUTs of 95%, 90%, 85%, 80% Offset and found the perfect black compression for my display.
Now I can see the first step without having the lows too bright.
I used the same % value to create a proper calibration ICM for my OS as well.


I also find that a Relative curve gives a proper gamma above 50% (probably even lower), but Absolute will not even reach 2.2 and remained to too bright/low.

A quick question:
In what circumstance should I use Absolute if it will not even reach proper gamma value at any region?
Maybe it's more linear and not over compressing ("bending") the dark region?
* I should point that the display is a Dell U2410 with 850:1 CR and 0.1 cd/m2 MLL.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-29-2014 at 04:33 AM.
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post #2532 of 2854 Old 08-29-2014, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
@ Florian, Graeme

Thank you VERY much for adding Black Output Offset to the 3DLUT creation in the latest Beta.
Now I can compress the blacks to my liking and watching environment.
Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear that the addition knob is useful.
Quote:
I used the same % value to create a proper calibration ICM for my OS as well.
I think there is an inconsistency in the matching control in dispcal (it is reversed). I'm not sure quite how to make that consistent with collink, without confusing people.
Quote:
I also find that a Relative curve gives a proper gamma above 50% (probably even lower), but Absolute will not even reach 2.2 and remained to too bright/low.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by relative/absolute in this context. Do you mean effective/technical gamma, or something else ?
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post #2533 of 2854 Old 08-29-2014, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
I'm not quite sure what you mean by relative/absolute in this context. Do you mean effective/technical gamma, or something else ?
I guess (in dispcalGUI I went with "relative" = effective, "absolute" = technical). So "absolute" (technical) gamma will have a lower effective gamma due to being influenced by the black level more, but I think this is by design?
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post #2534 of 2854 Old 08-30-2014, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear that the addition knob is useful.
Its very useful.
Now I can create new 3DLUT in 5 minutes to test Black Out Offset, instead of waiting 1.5 Hours for a new calibration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
I think there is an inconsistency in the matching control in dispcal (it is reversed). I'm not sure quite how to make that consistent with collink, without confusing people.
Are you sure they are reversed from one another? For me it behaves as expected.
It looks exactly the same when using the same Black Output Offset (-f [degree]) percentage with 3DLUT and ICM profile (collink, dispcal).
I have tested it with black steps pattern and switched between 3DLUT/Off (OS On), using madVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
I'm not quite sure what you mean by relative/absolute in this context. Do you mean effective/technical gamma, or something else ?
Absolute:
-G option is an alternative that allows the actual power to be specified instead, meaning that when combined with the displays non-zero black value, the response at 50% input will probably NOT match that of the ideal power curve with that gamma value.

Relative:
-g option is used to set and actual response curve that makes an allowance for the non-zero black of the actual display, and will have the same relative output at 50% input as the ideal gamma power curve, and so best matches typical expectations.

Only -g (Relative) gives me proper gamma with this test image (gamma 2.2), whether -G will not.




The question was: Why use -G if it can't even match the gamma I calibrate to (expected gamma)?
Don't we want the image to look like the mastering studio intended at least above the first black region?
If I can reach 2.2 at 10% and up with -g, why not? Whats the point of -G?
Why BT.1886 uses -G -f0 if most LCD displays will not ever reach 2.4 with this terms? Don't we want at least some region to be 2.4?

Thanks
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post #2535 of 2854 Old 08-31-2014, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Are you sure they are reversed from one another? For me it behaves as expected.
I think the sense is the same, but defaults are reversed.
Quote:
Absolute:
-G option is an alternative that allows the actual power to be specified instead, meaning that when combined with the displays non-zero black value, the response at 50% input will probably NOT match that of the ideal power curve with that gamma value.

Relative:
-g option is used to set and actual response curve that makes an allowance for the non-zero black of the actual display, and will have the same relative output at 50% input as the ideal gamma power curve, and so best matches typical expectations.
Right, so you mean technical gamma vs. effective gamma.

They both should be able to achieve exactly the same resulting curve. Internally, effective gamma is converted to a technical gamma number.
Quote:
The question was: Why use -G if it can't even match the gamma I calibrate to (expected gamma)?
Some people insist on using a fixed, technical power value and BT.1886 demands it. I find the effective gamma much more useable, because it is more closely related to the visual result in the face of a black offset.
Quote:
Don't we want the image to look like the mastering studio intended at least above the first black region?
One of the practical problems is that there is no certainty about how the mastering studio was setup, nor how the director and colorist wanted a film to look. The more the mastering setup is standardized, the better this situation will get. An issued that consumers face is that their gear is not necessarily as good as a mastering studio, nor is their viewing environment as controlled, so it's useful to be able to compensate for these differences.
Quote:
If I can reach 2.2 at 10% and up with -g, why not? Whats the point of -G?
Why BT.1886 uses -G -f0 if most LCD displays will not ever reach 2.4 with this terms? Don't we want at least some region to be 2.4?
I'm afraid I think log/log values can be quite useful in measuring what's going on, but assigning visual significance at any other point than 50% is fraught. It's not a visually linear scale.
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post #2536 of 2854 Old 09-02-2014, 02:20 PM
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Hello everybody,
Maybe some of you have the same problem but when I enable the 3dlut in madvr (tv, projector of pc screen) I always observe this phenomena on the upper and lower black bands:


The blacks of the image where the 3dlut is working are not as dark as the rest.
Do you know how I can correct this?
I targeted a BT1886 without black point compensation. I used the settings posted on the first page
Thanks for your help!

Last edited by Francois76l; 09-02-2014 at 03:27 PM.
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post #2537 of 2854 Old 09-03-2014, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
The blacks of the image where the 3dlut is working are not as dark as the rest.
Do you know how I can correct this?
I targeted a BT1886 without black point compensation. I used the settings posted on the first page
Thanks for your help!
Were the blacks darker before calibration/3dlut?
If so, this is typical and expected from displays with low contrast ratio when calibrated to BT.1886.

Most displays (especially low contrast ones) native gamma curve is a back compensated power law (effective gamma).
If your are used to this gamma behavior then calibrate to bt1886, it'll look brighter with lower actual gamma value and elevated dark shades.

The upcoming (currently in beta) ArgyllCMS+DispcalGUI will give you the ability to generate a madVR 3DLUT with Compensated power law and have the blacks compressed like you used to see.
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post #2538 of 2854 Old 09-03-2014, 01:45 AM
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Ok Thanks James for your reply!
Should I make a new calibration with black points compensation without BT1886 and with the REC707_Gamma2X.icm profile or should I wait for the new version?

The new DispcalGUI version will be able to calibrate with BT1886 gamma mapping with best black possible on all kind of devices with good or low contrast ratio?
If so, it will be amazing!

HiFi:Nad C320BEE+Marantz CD-63 MkII-Ki Signature+Boston VR2+DIY cabling
HC:Onkyo TX-SR875+Boston VR2+CR8+Chorus cc800v+Subwoofer MJ Acoustic Ref1 MKII
DISPLAYS:Panasonic P50ST50E/JVC DLA-X35+110" gain 0.8+HTPC (LAV+ffdshow+Avisynth+MPC-BE+MadVr)

Last edited by Francois76l; 09-03-2014 at 02:00 AM.
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post #2539 of 2854 Old 09-03-2014, 03:35 AM
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@Francois76l

Wait for the new version.
From the image you've posted it looks like source step RGB 0,0,0 does not equal RGB 0,0,0 at output, after calibration.
It was also fixed in the new version.

@gwgill
It would be great if in the resulting .cal file step 0 is actually 0,0,0 which is not if using -f0 (input offset).
I always have to edit the .cal manually and set step 0 to zero, only then profile the display.
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post #2540 of 2854 Old 09-03-2014, 03:48 AM
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Thanks for this great news! What about the 100% white?

I will wait for the new version

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post #2541 of 2854 Old 09-05-2014, 08:03 PM
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I'm happy to announce that I've released dispcalGUI 2.5.

Following are the changes from the previous stable release (2.1) that may be relevant for 3D LUT creation. People who have used the snapshots already know about most of them.

  • Enable black output offset instead of all-input offset for 3D LUTs, measurement report and synthetic profile creation (based on Argyll CMS 1.7 beta development code 2014-07-12, thanks to Graeme Gill). Note that for 3D LUTs, if using output offset ideally Argyll CMS 1.7 should be used aswell once it becomes available since the current implementation in dispcalGUI that enables output offset when used with Argyll CMS 1.6.3 or older has limited 16-bit precision for the black point mapping (due to the implementation altering the source profile TRC on-the-fly in that case, and the ICCv2 16-bit encoding used for the TRC tags in the source profile), while Argyll CMS 1.7 will enable full floating point processing (due to the black point mapping then taking place internally in collink, and dispcalGUI not having to alter the source profile TRC beforehand).
  • Enable interactive display adjustment without creating calibration curves by setting “Tone curve” to “As measured”. This also causes all calibration setting placeholders in the profile name to be ignored.
  • Renamed “Apply BT.1886 gamma mapping” to “Apply tone response curve”.
  • Always override the source profile tone response curve when using “Apply tone response curve” (3D LUT creation and measurement report) so the result will be correct for the chosen parameters regardless of source profile tone response curve.
  • When creating or loading a profile (except presets), it is now automatically set as the current profile in the measurement report and 3D LUT creation windows.
  • Enabled interactive display adjustment for the madVR and Resolve presets and altered them to not do video card gamma table calibration by default.
  • When a virtual display is selected, don't offer profile installation but 3D LUT creation instead.

Full changelog

Enjoy!
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post #2542 of 2854 Old 09-05-2014, 11:35 PM
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Amazing software, Thank you VERY much !
I've been using ArgyllCMS + DispcalGUI combo for years, and it keeps getting better and more accurate.

BTW, Where is the quick button in dispcalGUI to open madTPG?
Its a very lengthy procedure to manually go to c:\program files\madvr\madTPG.exe every time, instead of just clicking a single button in dispcalGUI.
Thanks.

Last edited by James Freeman; 09-05-2014 at 11:50 PM.
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post #2543 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post

BTW, Where is the quick button in dispcalGUI to open madTPG?
Its a very lengthy procedure to manually go to c:\program files\madvr\madTPG.exe every time, instead of just clicking a single button in dispcalGUI.
Thanks.
You could drag MadTPG to the desktop and create a shortcut icon (by holding down the right mouse key over it and drag to the desktop, release the right M-key and select create shortcut from the menu that will appear).
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post #2544 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 03:43 AM
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Can anyone provide a link to the argyllcms 1.7?
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post #2545 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 04:17 AM
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post #2546 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
BTW, Where is the quick button in dispcalGUI to open madTPG?
Its a very lengthy procedure to manually go to c:\program files\madvr\madTPG.exe every time, instead of just clicking a single button in dispcalGUI.
I'm still hoping madshi will implement auto-launch for madTPG when Argyll CMS tries to access it, that way you won't even have to click a button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Note that this beta version currently doesn't contain an updated collink (if I'm not mistaken), so the note about 16-bit encoding precision for output offset 3D LUTs in the first bullet point in my above post still applies (it may or may not matter, but in case you notice any weirdness at black then this could be a factor. I don't think you have to worry much, just keep it in mind).
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post #2547 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 07:14 AM
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A noob question, is there a summary of what the impact of black output offset is and when/why you would use it?
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post #2548 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I'm still hoping madshi will implement auto-launch for madTPG when Argyll CMS tries to access it, that way you won't even have to click a button.
He will (on request by the calibration software), when he finds some time...
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post #2549 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 07:29 AM
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Hi there,
I've recently discovered the possibility to do 3dlut with MadVR and yesterday I did my first test - which did not come up great.

I am slowly browsing through the 2500 posts here but if someone was so kind to give me a hand I'd appreciate that.

My first thought is: before I run a 2500+ patterns on my projector (which happens to be in my bedroom, so that means that either I sleep on a sofa or I'll have coloured nightmares) can I run a cut version on it to confirm it's working? The one I made did not even produce a decent greyscale. I just want to run a test to confirm the workflow works on my system (or, better, that I am doing it properly) before leaving the probe on for 5 hours - or more, it's just a i1D2.
The second one is: I can disable the existing calibration on madTPG; when the 3dlut is loaded and running on madVR do I need to disable my monitor's calibration? I disabled the calibrations yesterday when I run the patterns from madTPG, but when checking the results with HCFR I've got awful readings with or without windows calibration enabled.

Let me thanks the developers for this massive software, it's just incredible! Thank you!

Tony
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post #2550 of 2854 Old 09-06-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
A noob question, is there a summary of what the impact of black output offset is and when/why you would use it?
You'd use output offset if you want to target what people usually refer to as "pure power" gamma curve instead of BT.1886 (although "true" pure power would require a black level of zero, thus what they really mean is an output offset curve). A blend between input and output offset is also possible, by using a value between 0% and 100%.

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Originally Posted by Tony359 View Post
Hi there,
I've recently discovered the possibility to do 3dlut with MadVR and yesterday I did my first test - which did not come up great.
Can you explain a little more what the problem was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony359 View Post
My first thought is: before I run a 2500+ patterns on my projector (which happens to be in my bedroom, so that means that either I sleep on a sofa or I'll have coloured nightmares) can I run a cut version on it to confirm it's working?
You can reduce the number of patches, although I wouldn't go below 500. In dispcalGUI you can try the "Large testchart for LUT profiles, optimized for gamma 2.2 with Rec. 709 primaries (D65)" which has 679 patches.

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Originally Posted by Tony359 View Post
The second one is: I can disable the existing calibration on madTPG; when the 3dlut is loaded and running on madVR do I need to disable my monitor's calibration? I disabled the calibrations yesterday when I run the patterns from madTPG, but when checking the results with HCFR I've got awful readings with or without windows calibration enabled.
Yes, you need to disable the calibration when playing video through madVR (you could also create a 3D LUT that doesn't incorporate the calibration, but you'll get higher quality if you don't do that).

Last edited by fhoech; 09-06-2014 at 07:53 AM.
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