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post #2701 of 2835 Old 10-06-2014, 11:22 AM
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Ok it's working!
How should I proceed to manually do the spectrometer self-calibration before creating my ccmx file when enabling "Allow skipping of spectrometer self-calibration" ?
Will I be prompted for anything concerning the colorimeter? Because if a dialog box appear after the spectro measurements for the colorimeter, we have to switch madtpg in window mode.
From my understanding, for creating the ccmx file in projector mode, we have to prepare the colorimeter and the spectro and make all the testchart measurement in one way without any prompting to avoid this window mode.

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post #2702 of 2835 Old 10-07-2014, 06:11 AM
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Hi,

I will be honest this thread has grown so much im loosing my head a bit therefor im sure the following questions have been answered more than once, so please accept my apologizes in advance.

to create the initial profile (using my i1Display - corrected to my i1Pro 2 using the latest version of Dispcal and Argyll CMS 1.7 (latest beta)
Do I need to do any additional setup, exposure time, pattern delay etc. or is this done automatically (using madTTPG)?

when creating a 3DLUT with a power law gamma on 2.2 do I:
select source profile to Rec709_Gamma22.icm
Tick apply tone response curve and set custom, gamma 2.2, and relative.
what do I do with Black output Offset.
what do I do with Rendering intent.

when creating a 3DLUT with a power law gamma on 2.4 do I:
select source profile to Rec709_Gamma24.icm
Tick apply tone response curve and set custom, gamma 2.4, and relative.
what do I do with Black output Offset.
what do I do with Rendering intent.

when creating a 3DLUT with a Rec1886 2.4 gamma do I:
select source profile to Rec709.icm
Tick apply tone response curve and set Rec1886, gamma 2.4, and absolute.
what do I do with Black output Offset.
what do I do with Rendering intent.

can the above also be applied if I want to create LUT's for Rec601(of course changing the source profile to match)?

Thank you for your time in this, im this (--) close to giving up on CalMAN so would love to understand how dispcal/argyll CMS works, is there any good sources for information?

Thank you

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post #2703 of 2835 Old 10-07-2014, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
Do I need to do any additional setup, exposure time, pattern delay etc. or is this done automatically (using madTTPG)?
Argyll CMS automatically calculates and uses a display update delay with the i1 Display Pro, and usually this works very well. So unless you notice any problems, there's no need to do additional setup (in the off chance the automatically determined delay isn't enough, you can adjust it either by setting some environment variables, or in dispcalGUI choose "Set additional commandline arguments..." in the "Options" menu, then look under "Environment").

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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
when creating a 3DLUT with a power law gamma on 2.2 do I:
select source profile to Rec709_Gamma22.icm
Tick apply tone response curve and set custom, gamma 2.2, and relative.
There's no need anymore to use any of the Rec709_Gamma2X.icm profiles if you enable "apply tone response curve" (although it doesn't do any harm either, still I'd recommend using the default Rec709.icm that Argyll CMS provides).

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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
what do I do with Black output Offset.
This depends on the type of curve you want to target. Set it to 0% for BT. 1886-like (100% input offset), set it to 100% for what people refer to as "pure power". Set it to a value in-between to get a blend between input and output offset (personally I like a value around 50% as this seems to give a good compromise when it's unknown how the video material has been mastered, but that's just personal preference).

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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
what do I do with Rendering intent.
Personally I go with "relative colorimetric", but "absolute with white point scaling" can also be used (if you adjusted the display's whitepoint to match the target whitepoint, there will be very little difference between the two).

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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
when creating a 3DLUT with a power law gamma on 2.4 do I:
select source profile to Rec709_Gamma24.icm
Tick apply tone response curve and set custom, gamma 2.4, and relative.
what do I do with Black output Offset.
what do I do with Rendering intent.

when creating a 3DLUT with a Rec1886 2.4 gamma do I:
select source profile to Rec709.icm
Tick apply tone response curve and set Rec1886, gamma 2.4, and absolute.
what do I do with Black output Offset.
what do I do with Rendering intent.
See above.

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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
can the above also be applied if I want to create LUT's for Rec601(of course changing the source profile to match)?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
Thank you for your time in this, im this (--) close to giving up on CalMAN so would love to understand how dispcal/argyll CMS works, is there any good sources for information?
The documentation is always a good source, also the Argyll CMS mailinglist / dispcalGUI forums
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post #2704 of 2835 Old 10-07-2014, 07:35 AM
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Perfect thank you very much.

just two last question's

under "tone response curve" what is the difference between relative and absolute? and when would you select what.

is it possible to verify the correction matrix?

Last edited by ACappo; 10-07-2014 at 08:32 AM.
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post #2705 of 2835 Old 10-07-2014, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
under "tone response curve" what is the difference between relative and absolute? and when would you select what.
See the collink -Ib and collink -IB documentation (in dispcalGUI relative = effective, absolute = technical).

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is it possible to verify the correction matrix?
You could measure a testchart twice, once with the spectrometer used to create the correction and once with the colorimeter while using the correction. Then e.g. run colverify on the two measurement files.
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post #2706 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 03:46 AM
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Hello fhoech
I've just tested the last release (v2.5.0.3 Beta) but the option "Allow skipping of spectrometer self-calibration" is not working.
I manually calibrated the spectro with "Options --> Spectrometer self-calibration" (which work perfectly) and then checked the option "Allow skipping of spectrometer self-calibration" but in "Tools --> Create colorimeter correction --> Matrix --> Measure Testchart" I'm still asking to put the calibration plate on the i1Pro.

Concerning the ccmx creation, is it better to use the modes "XXX Adaptive HiRes" or "XXX Adaptive" for the i1Pro?

Thanks for your support!

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post #2707 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 06:45 AM
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Guys,


I need some help. I created a 3dlut file for MadVR. My digital front projector (JVC X35) has no build-in CMS and even if it had, ArgylCMS proved me in the past that it is far better then a CMS system on a digital projector. I know from my previous JVC projectors I could achieve perfect colors with a maximum delta of something between 0.1 and 0.9.


Well, it has been a while since I used ArgylCMS but I think I set it up ok. Still, the results I m getting are not good at all. Here are the results WITH using the created 3dlut file, measured in Chromapure with 100% color patterns:



My settings that I use in ArgylCMS are as following:






The results I get in ArgylCMS are:







And I created the 3dlut file with the following settings:



As I understand from the results I m getting an average delta of 0.62. This doesn t make sense to me that my results in Chromapure are so worse.

Am I doing something wrong?

ps. I also tried different color spaces as starting point in my projector (I have STANDARD, WIDE 1 and WIDE 2. All give me bad results. The results are a little bit better then without using the ArgylCMS file in madVR but like I said, with my previous JVC X7 I could achieve a near perfect CMS measurement with Chromapure after making a 3dlut file with ArgylCMS. Maybe some of my settings are wrong?


Here is the 3dlut file that I use (if this is relevant anyway to post?):
Code:
http://speedy.sh/8BDss/Unnamed.3dlut

And the icm file that was created
Code:
http://speedy.sh/7Mgtk/Unnamed.icm

Last edited by sanderdvd; 10-11-2014 at 06:56 AM.
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post #2708 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 07:24 AM
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Maybe a stupid question but are you sure that chromapure is using madvr as pattern generator and that your 3dlut is correctly setup under madvr ?

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post #2709 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
Well, it has been a while since I used ArgylCMS but I think I set it up ok. Still, the results I m getting are not good at all. Here are the results WITH using the created 3dlut file, measured in Chromapure with 100% color patterns:

That's not a very conclusive test though. What this tells you is basically the fit to Rec. 709 of just primaries/secondaries i.e. a very limited number of points at the outermost edges of the gamut, and it seems your projector's gamut is not quite large enough to encompass all of Rec. 709. I'd recommend at the very least a colorchecker-type test to get some idea about points that have a higher probability of being actually in-gamut.

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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
My settings that I use in ArgylCMS are as following:






The results I get in ArgylCMS are:







And I created the 3dlut file with the following settings:

Looks sane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
As I understand from the results I m getting an average delta of 0.62. This doesn t make sense to me that my results in Chromapure are so worse.
Note that the profile self check error is only an indicator that can show you if something went wrong during the profiling (or the measurements). E.g. if the errors were grossly higher than, say, 1.0 average and 5.0 peak, I'd suspect misreads or some other problem. It doesn't tell you anyhing about how well (or not) using the profile would be able to simulate another colorspace.

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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
Am I doing something wrong?
Unlikely. The reason you're not getting good match for Rec. 709 at the outer edges of the gamut is because your projector's gamut is too small (especially green) and doesn't encompass the whole Rec. 709 colorspace. This may be a hardware limitation, or a setting on the projector that limits the colorspace more than would be desirable.

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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
ps. I also tried different color spaces as starting point in my projector (I have STANDARD, WIDE 1 and WIDE 2. All give me bad results.
This would indicate it's a hardware limitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
The results are a little bit better then without using the ArgylCMS file in madVR but like I said, with my previous JVC X7 I could achieve a near perfect CMS measurement with Chromapure after making a 3dlut file with ArgylCMS. Maybe some of my settings are wrong?
(Hardware) settings on the projector, maybe, although the above seems to indicate that's not the case. Changing calibration, profiling or 3D LUT settings around definitely won't improve your gamut.
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post #2710 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 08:07 AM
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I also have a JVC x35 and this problem is well know. The gammut is too small for rec709 on the primary green color. You can't do anything. It's a hardware limitation... But you can achieve very good result with Argyll + DispCalGUI.

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CIECAM and Viewing Conditions

Hi guys,

I'd like to experiment a bit using the -d option in collink.

My idea is to take into account 2 different problems in a front projection setup:
  • the average ambient light due to reflections of white walls (with regard to the screen surround conditions, and not the impossible attempt to prevent the screen itself to be washed out)
  • the yellow color of very dim lights used sometimes when I can't switch every lights off (tipically soccer matches with friends)
Argyll seems to be pretty advanced since it has implemented CIECAM02 appearance model, but honestly I can't understand how to set the -d option after having made some measure, and even more honestly I accept suggestions about how making such measurements with an iD3.

Thanks
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post #2712 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 09:11 AM
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Cross posted from the HCFR thread, here are my CIECAM linking parameters:

Code:
rem CAM night/studio 2% mastering enviro
collink -v -G -qh -iaa -3e -et -Et -Ib:0.5:2.4 -cjd -cb:15 -ca:2.0 -cl:100 -cw:95.0470:100.00:108.833 -djd -dw:0.325:0.345 -da:1.7 -db:15 -dl:125 -dg:1.6 -dg:123.78:100:0.0 rec709.icm 100414.icm 100414_3.icm
rem CAM night/studio 10% mastering enviro
collink -v -G -qh -iaa -3e -et -Et -Ib:0.5:2.2 -cjd -cb:15 -ca:18.0 -cl:180 -cw:95.0470:100.00:108.833 -djd -dw:0.325:0.345 -da:1.7 -db:15 -dl:125 -dg:1.6 -dg:123.78:100:0.0 rec709.icm 100414.icm 100414_4.icm
rem CAM day/studio 2% mastering enviro
collink -v -G -qh -iaa -3e -et -Et -Ib:0.5:2.4 -cjd -cb:15 -ca:2.0 -cl:100 -cw:95.0470:100.00:108.833 -djd -dw:0.3246:0.3427 -da:3.7 -db:15 -dl:125 -dg:3.0 -dg:90.46:100:51.23 rec709.icm 100414.icm 100414_5.icm
rem CAM day/studio 10% mastering enviro
collink -v -G -qh -iaa -3e -et -Et -Ib:0.5:2.2 -cjd -cb:15 -ca:18.0 -cl:180 -cw:95.0470:100.00:108.833 -djd -dw:0.3246:0.3427 -da:3.7 -db:15 -dl:125 -dg:3.0 -dg:90.46:100:51.23 rec709.icm 091914.icm 100414_6.icm
So using the night/studio 2% mastering environment as an example:

Assumed Studio parameters
-cb:15 15% background (used gray world approximation for 11 deg. field)
-ca:2.0 dim surround set at 2% of display white in cd/m^2
-cl:100 100 cd/m^2 display white
-cw:95.0470:100.00:108.833 assume neutral surround

Measured destination parameters
-dw:0.325:0.345 I used 25% of the distance to the measured adaptation area white point
-da:1.7 measured average surround luminance in cd/m^2
-db:15 15% background (used gray world approximation for 11 deg. field)
-dl:125 display white in cd/m^2
-dg:1.6 1.6% measured reflectance of screen
-dg:123.78:100.0:0.0 measured XYZ of ambient light reflected by screen
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post #2713 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
Hello fhoech
I've just tested the last release (v2.5.0.3 Beta) but the option "Allow skipping of spectrometer self-calibration" is not working.
Oops, I accidentally made it do a reflective white calibration instead of an emissive dark calibration. I've updated the snapshot to fix this (2.5.0.4).
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post #2714 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 10:47 AM
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Humm I'm still asking to make the spectro self-calibration before measurement.
And I'm still asking to put the colorimeter in place before measurement (=> madtpg in window mode.)

If you could correct this, it would be great!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
Humm I'm still asking to make the spectro self-calibration before measurement.
The calibration needs to be recent (I think Argyll CMS checks if it's older than 50 minutes). In any case, try clearing out C:\Users\Your Username\AppData\Roaming\Cache\ArgyllCMS (this is where instrument calibrations are stored).

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Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
And I'm still asking to put the colorimeter in place before measurement (=> madtpg in window mode.)

If you could correct this, it would be great!
There's no way around this, users need to know which instrument should be on the screen for any given measurement. What I could do though is add a timeout, say 20 seconds, after which the "OK" button is automatically selected. This should give enough time to re-position the instrument on the screen.
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Quote:
There's no way around this, users need to know which instrument should be on the screen for any given measurement. What I could do though is add a timeout, say 20 seconds, after which the "OK" button is automatically selected. This should give enough time to re-position the instrument on the screen.
Or have three buttons:
1: Measure Testchart with the reference spectrometer
2: Measure Testchart with the colorimeter
3: Create matrix correction file

What do you think?

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When I set my VT60 (plasma) Gamut to Rec. 709, my green outer is pushed to the right a little. dE2000 high is 2.56
When I set my VT60 Gamut to Native, Green is spot on. dE2000 high is 1.54

The test I use is dispcalGUI, Measurement Report (default settings) verify video xi ti1 (493 points).

Judging from the above report what would be the better Gamut setting in the VT60 to achieve best Rec. 709 Gamut.

ss
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The calibration needs to be recent (I think Argyll CMS checks if it's older than 50 minutes). In any case, try clearing out C:\Users\Your Username\AppData\Roaming\Cache\ArgyllCMS (this is where instrument calibrations are stored).
I deleted the i1pro cal file and then restarted DispCalGUI but after manually making the spectro self-calibration (Options --> Spectrometer self-calibration) and selected "Allow skipping of spectro self-calibration", I'm always asked to make the spectro self-calibration when mesauring the testchart with the spectro (Tools --> Create colorimeter corretion)
The .i1p_853534.cal is well created in C:\Users\François\AppData\Roaming\Cache\ArgyllCMS
As you can see I have a special character in my name "ç"

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
When I set my VT60 (plasma) Gamut to Rec. 709, my green outer is pushed to the right a little. dE2000 high is 2.56
When I set my VT60 Gamut to Native, Green is spot on. dE2000 high is 1.54

The test I use is dispcalGUI, Measurement Report (default settings) verify video xi ti1 (493 points).

Judging from the above report what would be the better Gamut setting in the VT60 to achieve best Rec. 709 Gamut.

ss
You have to select the biggest gammut possible. After calibration, primary colors will be perfect

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post #2720 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
You have to select the biggest gammut possible. After calibration, primary colors will be perfect
Thanks for your reply.

Because in NA TV shows like Breaking Bad are shot/mastered using Rec 709 Gamut. If you use a larger Gamut the outside of the Rec. 709 spects you will end up with clipping of the outside color points.

What I am trying to get at is which setting is correct in my VT60 (Native or Rec. 709)

ss
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post #2721 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 01:41 PM
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the LUT's I get are all very bright. so let me first of all ensure my initial profile is correct.


and madTPG


My TV is setup to HDMI Black Level Low which enables BTB and WTW

any comments would be great.
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post #2722 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
My TV is setup to HDMI Black Level Low which enables BTB and WTW
Make sure your video card is forced to 0-255 HDMI output.
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post #2723 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 01:54 PM
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it is or im 99.99% sure, I will ensure toning.

I have used madLevelsTweaker.exe to it, and verified using patterns from Calman.
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post #2724 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 02:32 PM
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If TV and video card are all set to 0-255, why MadVR is set to 16-235?
On your screenshots, your receiver (TX-SR876) is grayed, which mean that this device is not connected. Only "Chi meixxx" is available.
For every device, you have to declare the device type (Receiver or Digital Monitor/TV in your cases)

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post #2725 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 02:55 PM
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the tv is set to 16-235 and the gpu is set to 0-255 to pass btb and wtw. and I can confirm that the GPU output 0-255. so does that not mean my settings as per the ss above is correct

and correct the onkyo was not connected when the ss was taken
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post #2726 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 03:15 PM
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There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR:

1- Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255.
This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously.

2- Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 16-235. madVR has to be set to 0-255.
This is not recommended, because the GPU stretches the madVR output, probably in 8bit without dithering, so banding could be introduced.

3- Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 0-255. madVR is set to 16-235.
This is the recommended setup for best image quality if your display can't do 0-255. This setup results in banding-free madVR image quality. However, levels for desktop and games will be incorrect, because desktop and games will render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects black at 16,16,16.

So you are on case 3 as me for my ST50
I've just tried a display calibration with options "white level drift compensation" and "black level drift compensation" and I can now see the blanking bars from 6 to 237
So maybe one of those options shouldn't be use. I will try a new calibration tonight.


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post #2727 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post

3- Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 0-255. madVR is set to 16-235[FONT=&quot].
This is the recommended setup for best image quality if your display can't do 0-255. This setup results in banding-free madVR image quality. However, levels for desktop and games will be incorrect, because desktop and games will render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects black at 16,16,16.
This setting is also recommended if you are only using the laptop to generate a LUT for video level playback from other devices.
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post #2728 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
I deleted the i1pro cal file and then restarted DispCalGUI but after manually making the spectro self-calibration (Options --> Spectrometer self-calibration) and selected "Allow skipping of spectro self-calibration", I'm always asked to make the spectro self-calibration when mesauring the testchart with the spectro (Tools --> Create colorimeter corretion)
The .i1p_853534.cal is well created in C:\Users\François\AppData\Roaming\Cache\ArgyllCMS
As you can see I have a special character in my name "ç"
It's working for me. What does the log say?
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post #2729 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post
the LUT's I get are all very bright. so let me first of all ensure my initial profile is correct.
dispcalGUI main settings look ok, but please post your 3D LUT settings as well.
As a side note, (although it won't influence the brightness), you may want to use one of the testcharts optimized for Rec. 709 in the future, or create your own optimized chart based on a previous profile as per the first post in this thread (I don't think it's worthwile to create a new profile now that you already have one though, just keep it in mind for future profiling runs).
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post #2730 of 2835 Old 10-11-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
What I am trying to get at is which setting is correct in my VT60 (Native or Rec. 709)

ss
If native and Rec.709 both enclose the Rec.709 gamut then either of them will work fine for a 3dLUT calibration. What you don't want is to start out with a setting where any of the 3 primaries are undersaturated (inside) the Rec.709 gamut.
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