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post #1 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been getting some unusual results when calibrating my Panasonic VT50 plasma with an i1 Pro that is less than 3 years old. I end up adjusting Green saturation to the max level (50) on the VT50 and Blue saturation also ends up unusually high. When I use the i1 Pro to profile a brand new i1 Display3 Pro, I usually get an error that the profile is out of range. I typically leave both meters on the display for at least 30 minutes before profiling.

I've used the i1 Pro to run LCD monitor profiles using X-Rite's i1 Profiler software and the results are always very good.

Just wondering what I should do with the i1 Pro ? Is it useless on a plasma ? Should I send it to X-Rite for re-certification ?

Sean
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post #2 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Another possibility, after a bit of Googling, is not enough power from the USB port on my laptop. May have to try using my HTPC next time. Here is what I found on X-Rite's website:


i1Pro Fails Reflectance Calibration Test:

If your i1 is failing the reflectance calibration test in i1Diagnostics, there are a couple of things you can try to remedy the situation.
•Make sure that your calibration tile is clean and free of debris.
•Try plugging your i1Pro into the USB ports on the back of your computer or try using a powered USB hub. The i1Pro requires a great deal of power from the USB port and power fluctuations may cause the lamp to fire incorrectly.

If neither of these steps correct the problem it will need to come into our facility for service. X-Rite provides a one-year warranty on the i1Pro with proof of purchase. If your device is out of warranty, the flat rate for repair will apply.

Sean
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post #3 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 06:16 AM
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stash64

Sounds like you're on the right track. On my i1pro2, the readings are different between using a powered hub and going direct to the usb port on the laptop. The presumption is that the powered hub has the correct voltage and the laptop output ....well, you just don't know. lol

After using a powered hub to power the i1pro, then be sure that you've got your grayscale right. Then do gamma, then back to grayscale and confirm gamma. Then do color.

Which calibration software are you using?

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post #4 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

stash64

Sounds like you're on the right track. On my i1pro2, the readings are different between using a powered hub and going direct to the usb port on the laptop. The presumption is that the powered hub has the correct voltage and the laptop output ....well, you just don't know. lol

After using a powered hub to power the i1pro, then be sure that you've got your grayscale right. Then do gamma, then back to grayscale and confirm gamma. Then do color.

Which calibration software are you using?

Is there a specific list for recommended powered USB hubs or will any do?
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Is there a specific list for recommended powered USB hubs or will any do?
I think any will do, as long as it's powered and its output correctly meets USB spec. For years, I've used a no-name powered hub purchased at a computer fair with my I1Pros and C-5 with no issues.

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post #6 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 10:45 AM
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Thanks Rolls!

My next question would be, how would you know if the power IS low on the laptop?

My laptop is about a year old but quite a good one, Dell Latitude E5540, that I always have plugged in, so that I don't use battery power.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 10:46 AM
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I'm thinking my colormunki photo (spectro) also suffers from this as the readings for red in particular shift as well. (particularly the x,y readings the Luminance isn't affected as much) Might buy a USB hub and see if the readings are more stable.

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post #8 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 10:51 AM
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I would definitely get a powered usb hub but as to your laptop,
check your manual usually there are at least one usb port sometimes two which can provide
power; is is usually limited to 500 ma max.

Cheers
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 11:03 AM
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Suppose the only way to check is to get the hub and do a readings check, there cheap so worth the test.

Ty.
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post #10 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

I would definitely get a powered usb hub but as to your laptop,
check your manual usually there are at least one usb port sometimes two which can provide
power; is is usually limited to 500 ma max.

Cheers
Rew

Laptops-even from the big manufacturers-can be quite variable when it comes to power output on their USB ports. If you look in Device Manager, you'll find you may have "ghost" peripherals such as internal wireless cards and modems that are attached to the laptop's USB bus and draining the power available to the external ports. Even if they aren't on the USB bus they can still be dragging down the laptop's not-too-robust low-voltage power rails. This variability is the reason I bought a powered hub in the first place. That and the extra reach the hub and its extension cable gave me.

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post #11 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 02:01 PM
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if my i1pro passes the i1 diagnostics perfectly, could I still be getting insufficient power from my laptop's usb ports? I have a HP ENVY dv7-7212nr Notebook PC
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post #12 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 02:03 PM
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I forgot to add, retrospective to the thread, heat with the i1pro is definitely a problem when in contact with a plasma display, which generate a lot of surface heat.

I found that results were often inconsistent requiring more dark recalls and tended to struggle reading 40% grey stimulus after about an hour of calibrating, taking longer to obtain a measure.

I have made a simple cure for this, for which I found a 4" tissue cardboard inner tube that fitted perfectly onto the i1 grey locking aperture, I covered the inside of the tube with black felt I had lying around and made an attachment bar for my tripod from a mic boom stand and have the i1 attached to this setup and gently resting on the front of the plasma, now 4" away from the heat.

Results are now consistent, more accurate and no reading difficulties, no matter how long i'm calibrating.
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

I forgot to add, retrospective to the thread, heat with the i1pro is definitely a problem when in contact with a plasma display, which generate a lot of surface heat.

I found that results were often inconsistent requiring more dark recalls and tended to struggle reading 40% grey stimulus after about an hour of calibrating, taking longer to obtain a measure.

I have made a simple cure for this, for which I found a 4" tissue cardboard inner tube that fitted perfectly onto the i1 grey locking aperture, I covered the inside of the tube with black felt I had lying around and made an attachment bar for my tripod from a mic boom stand and have the i1 attached to this setup and gently resting on the front of the plasma, now 4" away from the heat.

Results are now consistent, more accurate and no reading difficulties, no matter how long i'm calibrating.

You've created a mixing chamber, which not only isolates the probe from the heat, but also keeps the probe from "seeing" light from pixels just outside its viewing angle. I don't know if that's a problem with plasmas, but it has been with LCDs.

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post #14 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

if my i1pro passes the i1 diagnostics perfectly, could I still be getting insufficient power from my laptop's usb ports? I have a HP ENVY dv7-7212nr Notebook PC

I think it's possible. The diagnostics is a quick check of the probe's functions and doesn't last anywhere near as long as an actual calibration does. The calibration would give more time for USB power inconsistencies to manifest themselves. If you're seeing gross fluctuations or results that don't make sense try an inexpensive powered hub. It may straighten things out.

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post #15 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 08:05 PM
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Royce,

Does the i1 diagnostics see errors in color or just major failures?

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post #16 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

I forgot to add, retrospective to the thread, heat with the i1pro is definitely a problem when in contact with a plasma display, which generate a lot of surface heat.

I found that results were often inconsistent requiring more dark recalls and tended to struggle reading 40% grey stimulus after about an hour of calibrating, taking longer to obtain a measure.

I have made a simple cure for this, for which I found a 4" tissue cardboard inner tube that fitted perfectly onto the i1 grey locking aperture, I covered the inside of the tube with black felt I had lying around and made an attachment bar for my tripod from a mic boom stand and have the i1 attached to this setup and gently resting on the front of the plasma, now 4" away from the heat.

Results are now consistent, more accurate and no reading difficulties, no matter how long i'm calibrating.

It would be nice to show photo.

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post #17 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Royce,

Does the i1 diagnostics see errors in color or just major failures?

Jim, it runs through color patches displayed on the monitor during the tests. Whether it quantifies color errors, or just notes that they are occurring, I honestly don't know. The report to the user only notes "Pass" or "Fail" for each test.

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post #18 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

Jim, it runs through color patches displayed on the monitor during the tests. Whether it quantifies color errors, or just notes that they are occurring, I honestly don't know. The report to the user only notes "Pass" or "Fail" for each test.

If you save the log file (in the 2.5.1 version) it gives you the exact XYZ coordinates it read in the color tests ... however, there's no way to tell if there is an "error" unless it reads "blue" when you should have gotten "red" ... there's no way for the diagnostics to know about the characteristics (actual reference values) of monitor.

However, the diagnostics also return the values from the reflectance tests, unfortunately, they're in Lab coordinates and I don't know what white point is used for the reference (my guess would be D50 since that's where Xrite references their specifications for the i1Pro.) In theory, the meter should "know" what to expect back from the white tile.

Again, you have to save the results as a log file and then read though the log file with notepad (or some other text editor/viewer) to get at this information.

PS: Apparently, Xrite doesn't believe in using CR/LF so the log reads like a long stream of conscious sentence.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

You've created a mixing chamber, which not only isolates the probe from the heat, but also keeps the probe from "seeing" light from pixels just outside its viewing angle. I don't know if that's a problem with plasmas, but it has been with LCDs.

Hi Rolls,

The final calibration observations look right and perfect skin tones throughout the range, in fact they look the best I've seen on this display, the measurements are not too different to my "direct contact" measurements, no notable deviations and i'm finding the calibrations are now much faster with the boot applied.

I've also come across other calibrators now using the probe a few inches off screen during a night calibration and some using a similar diy "boot" method on plasmas, this also enables calibrations during the day as it stops ambient light entering the probe .

Can you elaborate on what you mean by off angle light as my method should simulate a direct view off screen measurement similar to PJ calibrations.



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IMG_0075_zpsc6d95d4e.jpg


IMG_0077_zps17c4d5e2.jpg


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post #20 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 07:25 AM
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Hitman,

I really like your tube idea but have you compared day time to dark room readings?

My reason for asking is that I would think that the surrounding glass surface has a way of transmitting light/color and influencing the readings.

Hope I'm wrong because I'd seriously would rather calibrate during the day than keep having to do this at night. Days are getting longer.

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post #21 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 10:00 AM
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The i1 is suppose to work in the daytime with the direct mount attached in direct contact mode, the DIY boot is the same contact diameter, however when I'm calibrating during the day my blackout curtains are closed and not much light is entering the room.

If I get some time i'll leave the curtains open and see if there is a measurable difference, I have a large window directly opposite the display.
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post #22 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

I think it's possible. The diagnostics is a quick check of the probe's functions and doesn't last anywhere near as long as an actual calibration does. The calibration would give more time for USB power inconsistencies to manifest themselves. If you're seeing gross fluctuations or results that don't make sense try an inexpensive powered hub. It may straighten things out.

that's just the thing, I don't see any signs of a problem... which is why I never bothered buying a powered USB hub

I always plug in the laptop when calibrating and I only use the relatively short USB cable that came with the i1pro1.
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post #23 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 04:14 PM
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Don't forget there are 2 types of heat changes with this type of measurement.

You have the thermal/ambient heat from direct contact or room temperature.There might be a reasonble temperature difference from pulling the meter out of storage and the ambient temp.

The other source of temperature change/difference is light itself. A high luma output from the display has energy, the sensor measurements detects this energy to give you the reading, but this also is converted into heat. High end spectral devices have thermal cooling to deal with this light heat. The problem with heat is that it changes the detection response of a sensor, typically the noise floor rises.

I find my i1pro settles after a 10~20mins of use where dark readings don't alter the reported values that much.

FWIW i always use a powered hub.

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post #24 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Hi Rolls,

The final calibration observations look right and perfect skin tones throughout the range, in fact they look the best I've seen on this display, the measurements are not too different to my "direct contact" measurements, no notable deviations and i'm finding the calibrations are now much faster with the boot applied.

I've also come across other calibrators now using the probe a few inches off screen during a night calibration and some using a similar diy "boot" method on plasmas, this also enables calibrations during the day as it stops ambient light entering the probe .

Can you elaborate on what you mean by off angle light as my method should simulate a direct view off screen measurement similar to PJ calibrations.



@prsut

The off-angle bit refers to the color shift you see as you go off-axis on LCDs, particularly older ones. An earlier generation of colorimeters built for use with CRT displays was very sensitive to this. One of the methods employed to make these meters work with LCDs was to attach an extension tube to prevent off-angle light being read by the sensors. Newer meters have mixing chambers incorporated into their designs.

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post #25 of 25 Old 06-22-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Hitman,

I really like your tube idea but have you compared day time to dark room readings?

My reason for asking is that I would think that the surrounding glass surface has a way of transmitting light/color and influencing the readings.

Hope I'm wrong because I'd seriously would rather calibrate during the day than keep having to do this at night. Days are getting longer.

Jim,

Tested the tube fitting today and confirm it works fine and does not let any light enter the chamber, the readings taken at night and at day (daytime with curtains open and natural light filling the room), the results are the same.

Atb.
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