Sony KDL-70R550A post HCFR grayscale calibration blue push - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 07-13-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I finished setting the picture, brightness, color, and hue of my Sony KDL-70R550A using HCFR and my i1 DisplayPro. What I have noticed is that even setting the color temperature to warm, the blue channel is still 10% too high across the board from 0 IRE to 100 IRE.  I found that I can get into the service menu on this tv to adjust the color temperature, more accurately I can adjust R Gain, G Gain, B Gain, R Offset, G Offset, and B Offset.  I would like to bring this blue push down into compliance, but I have little experience with the Sony temperature controls.  Any advice on how I should tackle this?

 

The pictures below show the Sony service menu, the default values for the Gain and Offset do not change when I change between Vivid, Neutral, and Warm1.  This must mean that the actual values are NOT 512, 512, ... etc.  This must be how I can override them, but I don't know what the are right now so I can't intelligently lower the B Gain and B Offset for Warm1.  Does anybody know what the default values are for these controls?  Or how I would go about adjusting them to fix my blue push problem?  Not knowing the starting point for these values kinda sucks.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

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post #2 of 29 Old 07-15-2013, 01:10 AM
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I have sammy es6500 and was wondering the same but on mine all offsets (or was it labeled brightness?) were at 128 but but gains were everywhere Rg at 142 Gg at 128 Bg at 177 and was wobdering if there is a lot if blue push in 70-80-90% ranges? There was also a offset at level 128 and gain at 134 all in same menu

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post #3 of 29 Old 07-15-2013, 01:13 AM
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I meant to say I wonder if this is where my blue push is coming from? Stupid tapatalk wont let me edit

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post #4 of 29 Old 07-15-2013, 01:34 PM
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If you do not have controls in the user menu for gain and offset (or Sony's name for them if different), you can get yourself in huge trouble by messing in the service menu especially if you cannot determine original values so they can be reset if the adjustment doesn't work. The problem with service menus is that in "modern" TVs we generally don't need to mess with them any longer because the controls you need for calibration are in the main menu. That means there may be nobody else out there who knows anything about the service menu in your set and you'll be experimenting in an area that could disable or ruin the images on your TV with no way to restore the TV aside from a trip to the factory (likely at your expense because it will be obvious it wasn't a warranty failure).

If you don't have gain/offset controls in the User Menu, you may not be able to fix the issue. That may make you want to get into the service menu even more since that looks like your only possible solution. All I can say is, unless someone else has done what you are trying to do in the service menu of your specific model, and you have specific steps on what to do to make the necessary adjustment (and save it so it "sticks"), you'll be experimenting and that is ALWAYS dangerous to the TV.

Next, you don't have blue push. "Push" is a very specific problem related to the way the color decoder works. You have (presumably) excess blue in the images and that is NOT blue push, it is something different requiring the correct description. Color decoders in digital video displays never (in my experience, I've seen a lot of models from a lot of manufacturers, but by no means have I seen every model and every manufacturer and every year) have problems with "push" of any color. But digital TVs can CERTAINLY have too much or too little of any primary or complementary color. The entire concept of "Push" may be completely impossible in the digital video world since each pixel has numeric values assigned to the red, green, and blue pixels, there's really no color decoder per se. The TV may convert one color format to another, but that's simple math (well, not exactly simple, but simple once encoded into a chip correctly), but unless you have some sort of specific processing turned on, the TV won't change the values of any of the red, green, or blue pixel values arbitrarily. The color decoder in analog TV was a whole different beast and manufacturers often did diddle with it in an attempt to make fleshtones look more natural when the images were VERY blue (like 9500K or even more blue than that).

Finally, there's no such thing as IRE in digital video even though it may be used in software, discs, and TV menus. IRE is an analog video concept that describes how an input voltage relates to screen brightness. That simply does not exist in digital video and should not be used in the digital video realm. It is NOT interchangeable with % white and just confuses the conversation when that term is used. In digital video we use % white (0%-109%) or digital levels (16-235 or 0-255).
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post #5 of 29 Old 07-15-2013, 04:02 PM
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What Doug said!

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post #6 of 29 Old 07-16-2013, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Doug, those are fine comments for those that are scared to look under the hood.  I remember the Chevy dealer saying that you shouldn't touch anything under the hood, because you can really mess things up.  Well, I'm a shade tree mechanic and proud of it.  You and I are shade tree TV mechanics, or we wouldn't be on these forums and we sure as heck wouldn't be posting in the "Display Calibration" section if we weren't.  I'm not scared to make adjustments to the color temperature in the service menu, but I'm also not stupid.  Hence the reason, I'm looking for sage advice from others that have done Sony color temperature calibration.  Does anybody know what the default values are for the GAIN and OFFSET numbers?  Any other words of advive for adjusting these settings in a Sony?  is there a nice tutorial I've missed for setting GAIN and OFFSET  in general?

 

I have NO problems with adjusting the VIVID mode, as it is worthless anyway.  Thanks!

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post #7 of 29 Old 07-16-2013, 12:49 PM
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That is why you buy something like a Radiance Mini, or one of the Color boxes today. If you have an older TV with limited color control but it still is worth hanging on to it for you, invest in some external 3D LUT device.......... it can fix most if not all these issues.

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post #8 of 29 Old 07-16-2013, 01:44 PM
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I'm not a shade-tree mechanic. I'm a mechanical engineer with softeware, electrical, and computer engineering "add ons". I started out as an automotive engineer working for a manufacturer and changed to being an imaging systems engineer in 1972. I've been working on imaging systems of one kind or another since 1972, including film and digital cinema systems. I consider myself a highly experienced and capable imaging systems professional.

I have adjusted many Sony models... but not yours. Nobody who has not touched YOUR particular model can offer advice because Sony TVs (or any other brand) do not work the same from year to year and model to model (the exception being different size TVs within 1 particular model range... those do typically share a menu and response to controls). So you either have to have someone who has spent hours and hours working on your specific model who can tell you how to get where you want to go... or you have to put that time and effort in yourself. AND if you do end up having to do all the digging and analysis of what various controls are doing, you have to accept that if you are in the service menu, you could seriously whack the TV into having visible problems you may never be able to fix. It's not guaranteed to happen, but it CAN happen. Not knowing the original settings is one place where you can really get in trouble because you may not be able to backtrack if the control does something you don't like... especially if you don't notice there's a problem for days or weeks after the adjustment (that happens at times also).

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post #9 of 29 Old 07-22-2013, 10:18 PM
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If the OPs Sony is anything like mine, those RGB values in the service menu are for setting the unit's base white balance, which is what Warm1, Warm2, Cool, etc. are derived from by the set's operating system. Sony does not publish what these values are, nor what that target white point is, and they are not in the service manual. White balance/grayscale should be done from the controls in the User menus if the set has them..

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post #10 of 29 Old 09-23-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

That is why you buy something like a Radiance Mini, or one of the Color boxes today. If you have an older TV with limited color control but it still is worth hanging on to it for you, invest in some external 3D LUT device.......... it can fix most if not all these issues.

 

I'm interested in external LUT's.  I've coded in various color models decades ago.  And I also have the R550A the OP has (mine is the 60"), but a slightly different problem.

 

Over in the R550A thread, we've been calling this the "Lavender Lips Effect", and it's a odd way that red goes out of control on skin color on some channels, along with too much blue that looks like it first and primarily shows up for lips.  It's really weird, and I've used the WOW disk & filter for calibration and some of us (I included) just cannot get this effect to stop.

 

Now to be clear, skin color sometimes shifts to a lavendar-ish (making it look like an odd razor burn), but the lips are always the most pronounced.  Given that lavendar requires blue, this might be the same excess blue the OP was talking about.  However, the reds themselves do go nutty at the top end.

 

I had been wondering about the LUT stuff, I have some indexing ideas, but Lumagen's cheapest model tend to be $1500 to $2000, which is crazy for a $1400 TV, and I can't find any others.


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post #11 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 11:10 AM
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STL_HD_Guy, I purchased the same TV a few weeks ago (KDL-70R550A ). I have been looking all over for some calibration settings, but haven't had much luck. I found a couple of reviews on Amazon that had some settings I tried and wasn't happy with. Google led me to this thread. Seeing how you have the professional calibrating equipment, I was hoping you could post you picture settings for this TV please? I'll probably end up having Geek Squad come out to do a calibration, but I wanted to try on my own first. Thanks!
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post #12 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rizoss16 View Post

STL_HD_Guy, I purchased the same TV a few weeks ago (KDL-70R550A ). I have been looking all over for some calibration settings, but haven't had much luck. I found a couple of reviews on Amazon that had some settings I tried and wasn't happy with. Google led me to this thread. Seeing how you have the professional calibrating equipment, I was hoping you could post you picture settings for this TV please? I'll probably end up having Geek Squad come out to do a calibration, but I wanted to try on my own first. Thanks!

 

Did you look at the centralized settings spreadsheet I maintain in the R550 thread I started?

 

Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70"

 

Links to it are in the very first post.  This is a spreadsheet of settings that people consider to be their very best for their own set.  Of course, all TVs are different, but they offer an outstanding starting place.

 

I ALSO supply a link to an empty spreadsheet so you can fill in your own settings as you go along trying different things.  This is critically important, because there is no worse feeling than having a combination that reallly really works that you switch away from briefly only to realize that you've forgotten what it was.


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 02:31 PM
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Did you look at the centralized settings spreadsheet I maintain in the R550 thread I started?

Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70"

Links to it are in the very first post.  This is a spreadsheet of settings that people consider to be their very best for their own set.  Of course, all TVs are different, but they offer an outstanding starting place.

I ALSO supply a link to an empty spreadsheet so you can fill in your own settings as you go along trying different things.  This is critically important, because there is no worse feeling than having a combination that reallly really works that you switch away from briefly only to realize that you've forgotten what it was.

I did see this chart, thank you. I'm going to test out some of the settings tonight. I just wasn't sure what methods were used to arrive at these settings, and figured I'd ask the guy who we know has the hardware for calibration.
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Did you look at the centralized settings spreadsheet I maintain in the R550 thread I started?

Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70"

Links to it are in the very first post.  This is a spreadsheet of settings that people consider to be their very best for their own set.  Of course, all TVs are different, but they offer an outstanding starting place.

I ALSO supply a link to an empty spreadsheet so you can fill in your own settings as you go along trying different things.  This is critically important, because there is no worse feeling than having a combination that reallly really works that you switch away from briefly only to realize that you've forgotten what it was.

I did see this chart, thank you. I'm going to test out some of the settings tonight. I just wasn't sure what methods were used to arrive at these settings, and figured I'd ask the guy who we know has the hardware for calibration.

 

Some were done by trial and error.  Others were done after running a calibration BD like Disney's WOW.  I think one of them was done by a calibrator, but I can't remember if he put something into the chart or not.


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #15 of 29 Old 01-31-2014, 08:54 AM
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-31-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by STL_HD_Guy View Post
 

 

 

 

I just noticed something.  In this service menu, you are given a "warm1" color temp option.  The R550 user settings do not have this (the lower Sony models hasve only "Warm").  What happens if you change that warm1 to warm2?  Is warm2 there?  How does it present itself when back in the user settings I wonder?


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #17 of 29 Old 04-24-2014, 09:45 AM
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Hello,

How did you enter the "Factory Mode"? I know how to get into the service mode but not the factory mode.


Thanks, Siegfried
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post #18 of 29 Old 04-24-2014, 10:02 AM
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Hello,

How did you enter the "Factory Mode"? I know how to get into the service mode but not the factory mode.


Thanks, Siegfried

 

(???)  There is a factory mode?


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #19 of 29 Old 04-24-2014, 10:05 AM
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see pictures in post #1
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post #20 of 29 Old 05-23-2014, 01:29 AM
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I am also wondering how to enter the factory mode. I was able to get into the service mode by pressing INFO+5+VOL UP and Power, but it shows a different screen with no white balance options
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post #21 of 29 Old 05-23-2014, 05:38 AM
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I am also wondering how to enter the factory mode. I was able to get into the service mode by pressing INFO+5+VOL UP and Power, but it shows a different screen with no white balance options

 

Ok, now I'm confused.

 

If someone can verify for me the following, then I'll put detailed instructions into the top post of the R550A thread: Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70".

 

  1. Are there both a factory and service mode, and if so, what are the differences?
  2. What are the key combinations for each?  This is still unclear which of the two we are talking about here.
  3. BRICK AVOIDANCE: Is there anything that cannot be easily fixed once altered?

 

Thanks!


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #22 of 29 Old 05-23-2014, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, now I'm confused.

If someone can verify for me the following, then I'll put detailed instructions into the top post of the R550A thread: Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70".
  1. Are there both a factory and service mode, and if so, what are the differences?
  2. What are the key combinations for each?  This is still unclear which of the two we are talking about here.
  3. BRICK AVOIDANCE: Is there anything that cannot be easily fixed once altered?

Thanks!

For what I gather. . There seems to be two different ones. .with the factory mode having the w/b options and the service mode just having a few options. .most of them useless to calibration
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post #23 of 29 Old 05-23-2014, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by erick0071 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, now I'm confused.

If someone can verify for me the following, then I'll put detailed instructions into the top post of the R550A thread: Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70".
  1. Are there both a factory and service mode, and if so, what are the differences?
  2. What are the key combinations for each?  This is still unclear which of the two we are talking about here.
  3. BRICK AVOIDANCE: Is there anything that cannot be easily fixed once altered?

Thanks!

For what I gather. . There seems to be two different ones. .with the factory mode having the w/b options and the service mode just having a few options. .most of them useless to calibration

 

Well be careful.  There are a couple of us speculating in the R550A thread that they might have changed their CMS system (read as "crippled it less than before") by firmware update.  A couple of us are reporting a decrease in something we called the "Lavender Lip Effect".  If this is true, I can't imagine that the folks who already shelled out $250+ for a calibration are too psyched.


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #24 of 29 Old 05-23-2014, 06:13 AM
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I read the official thread as well. I've been looking for a way to fix my grayscale. .as my model is a model made for the armed forces exchange that is Multisystems and it appears that they didn't put much effort when calibrating at the factory. . My display shows a really big blue push all across and the gamut is way off.. eve the firmware is a different one.
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post #25 of 29 Old 05-30-2014, 11:11 AM
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Has anyone any insight at all as to Sony's service vs. factory menu?  Are they accessed the same across all [most] Sony's?


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #26 of 29 Old 06-02-2014, 09:07 AM
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Has anyone any insight at all as to Sony's service vs. factory menu?  Are they accessed the same across all [most] Sony's?

I went as far as PM'ing the OP guy, but as of today, not a response yet. Maybe someone on the official thread can give us some insight.. maybe the people at Spectracal forums...dereksmith maybe.
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post #27 of 29 Old 06-02-2014, 10:06 AM
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I thought I had posted this here, but apparently it must've been a different thread.

 

I found a text description on youtube (silly place) that shows a couple ways into both a Sony service menu and factory mode.

 

Be careful with this stuff!

 

It's only 45 seconds long.


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post #28 of 29 Old 06-03-2014, 11:40 AM
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I thought I had posted this here, but apparently it must've been a different thread.

I found a text description on youtube (silly place) that shows a couple ways into both a Sony service menu and factory mode.

Be careful with this stuff!

It's only 45 seconds long.


Which one have you used? I used the first combination and that's is how I got to the empty service menu. Like I said, no w/b settings on that one.
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post #29 of 29 Old 06-03-2014, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I thought I had posted this here, but apparently it must've been a different thread.

I found a text description on youtube (silly place) that shows a couple ways into both a Sony service menu and factory mode.

Be careful with this stuff!

It's only 45 seconds long.

Which one have you used? I used the first combination and that's is how I got to the empty service menu. Like I said, no w/b settings on that one.

 

I haven't tried any yet.  Scared to.  Did you try the 3rd one?  Look at 34 seconds in.  That's "factory mode".


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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