Do backlight strobing/scanning features like 'LED Motion Plus' affect meter profiles? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 64 Old 07-17-2013, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
My 2012 Samsung LED LCD has the 'LED Motion Plus' feature that uses either backlight scanning or strobing (not sure which) to supposedly reduce motion blur. My question is about meter profiling and whether this feature has any impact on a profile. For example, if I create a profile for my C6 with the i1pro spectro with the TV having LED Motion Plus OFF and then use the profiled C6 while LED Motion Plus is ON, will the profile be any less accurate? And vice versa?

And while I'm on the subject of display settings and meter profiles, if I was to create a meter profile with the display in it's default home picture settings [standard mode] (or even default store [dynamic] mode for that matter) would it be any less accurate than one done in Movie mode? Basically are there any settings on the TV that can affect profiling and thus must be set correctly/consistently before profiling to ensure the profiling works?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 64 Old 07-17-2013, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
and what about settings on the BD player being used the pattern source for the profiling?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #3 of 64 Old 07-18-2013, 11:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
ElectronicTonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 949
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 60
I would just leave that setting off while calibrating, then you can turn back on after. If you do calibrate with it on, leave it on for both meters, that way the profiles are the same.
ElectronicTonic is offline  
post #4 of 64 Old 07-18-2013, 07:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Chad B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Piqua, OH
Posts: 2,055
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 342
The two replies above sound like they think the OP is some sort of dummy or novice, both of which are untrue. These are intelligent questions that deserve more intelligent responses. I'd like to see Sotti's take on it.
PlasmaPZ80U likes this.
Chad B is offline  
post #5 of 64 Old 07-18-2013, 07:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryInRI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in RI
Posts: 5,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Wow, someone with an acknowledged and respected reputation calling a spade a spade. Too much of that condescension going around these days. Thanks, Chad, nice call.

Larry
Chad B and PlasmaPZ80U like this.
LarryInRI is offline  
post #6 of 64 Old 07-19-2013, 12:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
ElectronicTonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 949
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The two replies above sound like they think the OP is some sort of dummy or novice, both of which are untrue. These are intelligent questions that deserve more intelligent responses. I'd like to see Sotti's take on it.

I didn't intend my post to come off that way. If the OP took it that way, I apologize.

I was just giving my simple opinion on his issue, nothing more.
ElectronicTonic is offline  
post #7 of 64 Old 07-19-2013, 02:17 AM
Advanced Member
 
PE06MCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Second para of original post strikes a chord with me as well.
I have always used the 'User' mode irrespective of whether other modes eg 'movie' or 'games' are closer to D65 color temperature.
My reasoning is that maybe the none 'user' modes may prevent the ability to switch off some of the the TV's video aids (re DougB's suggestions).

Are my fears justified or is it an unnecessary precaution?
PE06MCG is offline  
post #8 of 64 Old 07-19-2013, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Perhaps I need to rephrase my question. I'm really asking whether there are any settings on a display like my Samsung LED LCD that can affect SPD enough to throw off a meter profile. As in creating the meter profile with one combination of settings and then later using it with another combination of settings... 'LED Motion Plus' being one of those settings. It's really a more of a what if question than me saying that I'd calibrate a display in Standard/Dynamic mode with lots of 'auto' crap on (which I didn't say).

It's about meter profiles specifically.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #9 of 64 Old 07-19-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

I would just leave that setting off while calibrating, then you can turn back on after. If you do calibrate with it on, leave it on for both meters, that way the profiles are the same.

it reduces light output by ~50% and changes grayscale (and low end gamma) a little

of course, I could just create the profile with LED Motion Plus on if I want it on later but the question is does it really matter? or will the meter profile be valid regardless of whether LED Motion Plus is on or off?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #10 of 64 Old 07-19-2013, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

I would just leave that setting off while calibrating, then you can turn back on after. If you do calibrate with it on, leave it on for both meters, that way the profiles are the same.

when profiling both meters were using the exact same display (TV) /source settings (PS3/BD Player)
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #11 of 64 Old 07-19-2013, 01:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 226
The answers are missing the mark, including my first one.

There are 2 issues... the altered gamma from a dimming backlight feature and scanning or strobing of the LED array to improve motion.

You can tell quite easily if the profile would be affected with backlight strobing or scanning active...

Start with one of the 2 meters and measure something like 50% white with the backlight scanning/strobing on and again with the scanning/strobing off (dynamic/dimming backlight off during this). Compare the 2 sets of measurements... same result? That meter is not affected by the backlight scanning/strobing. Different results? That meter IS affected by the backlight feature and you should have it off for profiling or measurements.

Repeat the same process with the other meter. You'll get one of the 2 results... same measurements both times or different.

If either meter's measurements are affected by the backlight strobing/scanning, you'll have to have it off every time you profile or make measurements. If both meters produce the same readings with the backlight strobing/scanning on and off, you could leave the backlight feature on or off. The strobing/scanning backlight feature shouldn't affect gamma if you adjust 100% white to the same reading for each measurement. If you measure 100% white at 40 fL with the strobing/scanning feature off and 30 fL with the strobing feature on, adjust 100% white to 40 fL when scanning/strobing is on so you are comparing apples to apples... a strobing/scanning backlight is likely to produce less measurable light so you want to compensate for that if needed.

Regardng the gamma issue... that's more related to dimming/dynamic backlights or auto iris on a projector... though strobing/scanning backlight could make for somewhat different gamma measurements since the peak white level and black level may be lower when you turn on strobing/scanning backlight. Equalizing luminance for strobe/scan on/off should eliminate gamma effects from turning strobe/scan on or off.

Dynamic backlights and automatic iris features on projectors DO produce odd gamma measurements if they are on during the calibration, but it is NOT because they are messing with gamma. It is because of our measurement method of displaying 1 step of the grayscale at a time. The iris or backlight will increase the light measured for bright grayscale steps and reduce the light measured for darker steps and that does indeed make for odd-looking measurement results, primarily for gamma. BUT, if you were to measure a grayscale ramp pattern that has all 10 or 20 grayscale steps displayed at the same time, and you measured all the steps on that one pattern, you would measure a consistent gamma no matter whether you had the backlight feature on or off. That's because the pattern is "stationary" and the backlight or iris feature is not changing the light output while the measurements are being made.

Not take another scenario that simulates what an auto iris or dynamic backlight does... set the luminance so that 100% white measures 30 fL and measure grayscale/gamma with the backlight feature or auto iris turned off. You will get a "good" gamma... let's say you measure, nominally, 2.25 gamma. Now change the Contrast setting so you get only 15 fL for 100% white (simulating the auto iris or dynamic backlight when you have darker images being displayed). Now, still with the auto iris or dynamic backlight OFF, measure your grayscale/gamma again. It's going to be darn close to 2.25 though the black level will be darker and white dimmer which will throw the gamma calculation off a bit, compared to the brighter measurements. BUT, the grayscale steps will have a similar relationship to each other as they did when the panel was producing 30 fL. We only see one luminance level per frame which is like measuring grayscale using a ramp pattern...all steps in a single image/frame. We don't see multiple luminance levels in a single frame (which is similar to measuring grayscale with the dynamic backlight or auto iris turned on, but only measuring 1 step at a time) --- of course there is an exception... backlight arrays with true local dimming. But even with local dimming, each luminance level (per frame) will have roughly the same gamma, though your MEASUREMENT of gamma with local dimming on would be pretty strange if the test patches were all in 1 frame but spread out over the screen so the TV was brightening some patches and dimming others.

Taking this a step further... if you could somehow duplicate the crazy looking gamma you measure with dynamic backlight or auto iris turned on while the backkight/iris was OFF, your images would look pretty horrible overall. But the images do NOT look horrible if you calibrate with backlight/iris features turned off, then turn them on after calibration. That's because the measurements you make while the backlight/iris feature turned on aren't revealing the TRUE frame-by-frame gamma you see when the feature is turned on.

A lot of people have a hard time digesting this. If you don't get it the first time, try going through it again or a couple more times.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #12 of 64 Old 07-20-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
When using either meter, light output is reduced by ~50% when the feature is on (LED Motion Plus). Also, the 10% step measures a bit darker relative to 100% (goes from around 2.1 with the feature off to around 2.2 with the feature on). All other steps (20% to 90% in 10% increments) do not change in any significant or measurable way. Also, all this is done in Movie mode where the auto-dimming backlight feature is disabled (fixed backlight in movie mode). Also, the RGB levels change a bit when the feature is turned on vs. off (but the difference in dE between the two is well under 3).

So, because the light output goes to half when the feature is on, calibrating with it off and then turning it on later doesn't really make sense to me. It makes more sense to fine tune everything with the feature on to make sure I get enough light output and that any grayscale differences are compensated for. As far APL goes, since the backlight is fixed in movie mode I can use any pattern type (windows of any size, full fields, or APL windows of any size) and get essentially identical readings (tiny fractional dE differences at worst between different pattern types).
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #13 of 64 Old 07-20-2013, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
So, if both meters are affected the same way by the LED Motion Plus feature, does it mean I can use my meter profile for my C6 (created with i1pro spectro) both with the feature on and off? Will the profile be equally accurate for both on and off? My question is more about the relationship between the two meters as the feature is toggled on and off (whether that relationship changes... which I don't believe it does but I wanted to be sure from a conceptual/theoretical viewpoint).

What I'm asking again is whether backlight scanning/strobing features affect SPD and if they do, is it enough to require meter profiling is done with those features on should you desire to use the meter profile later with the feature on.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #14 of 64 Old 07-23-2013, 10:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

When using either meter, light output is reduced by ~50% when the feature is on (LED Motion Plus)..

I'm assuming the point of this feature is to emulate the phosphor decay characteristics of a CRT vs. the normal sample and hold characteristic of LCDs?

If so, then the reduced luminance measurement with it turned on makes sense, although, at the moment, I find my self at a loss wrt the ramifications. I suspect that this may be a case where differences in the field of vision for the two meters *might* be significant. OTOH, if they are in "agreement" wrt luminance with the feature on or off, then I don't see a reason to be overly concerned.

That being said, there's certainly a conundrum deciding which luminance measurement is "right" for the purposes of determining gamma issues and peak output ... I think that's probably the bigger issue here.

The Parrot has squawked ...
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #15 of 64 Old 07-24-2013, 05:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Backlght scanning or strobing has nothing to do with emulating anything about CRT.

It exists as a potential means of eliminating motion blur that is an inherent problem of LCD technology. Put simply, LCD pixels do not turn on/off as quickly as you would like in order to reproduce motion without comet-tail blur. LCD images look very sharp and precise when the image is "still" like a photo, but move that photo and LCD blur reduces resolution by 3/4 to 2/3 of what it is for the still image. The visibility of the motion blur depends greatly on image content... come combinations of color and luminance make the motion blur much more obvious, while other combinations tend to hide the motion blur.

When you scan or strobe the backlight, the engineers are attempting to show you all the pixels in the display AFTER they have had time to change to the proper state for the frame being displayed, hopefully missing all or most of the lost resolution due to motion blur.

By the way, you can EASILY view motion blur on LCD TVs by putting your computer's desktop on the TV, opening an image viewer app and make the image about 15% of the size of the screen or so, then grab the image with your mouse and drag it around the screen in different directions. You will see more or less motion blur depending on the direction of motion and content of the image. One of the more obvious examples I've seen was a profile image of a parrot's head. Lots of stripes around the eyes... those stripes all but disappear when you put the image in motion. Do the same test on a plasma or DLP display and you lose very little resolution.

That's not to say plasma and DLP images are perfect... both have their issues. But motion blur bugs a lot of people, including me. So it's nice to have tech options where motion blur is more or less a non-issue.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #16 of 64 Old 07-24-2013, 06:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Backlght scanning or strobing has nothing to do with emulating anything about CRT.

It exists as a potential means of eliminating motion blur that is an inherent problem of LCD technology. Put simply, LCD pixels do not turn on/off as quickly as you would like in order to reproduce motion without comet-tail blur. LCD images look very sharp and precise when the image is "still" like a photo, but move that photo and LCD blur reduces resolution by 3/4 to 2/3 of what it is for the still image. The visibility of the motion blur depends greatly on image content... come combinations of color and luminance make the motion blur much more obvious, while other combinations tend to hide the motion blur.

Humm ... that's actually the point I was trying to get at. smile.gif The reason we don't see "blur" so much on a CRT is because the "pixel"/scanline luminance decays over the length of time that the individual video frame is displayed. Turning the backlight off or "strobing" it essentially does the same thing.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #17 of 64 Old 07-25-2013, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Still... phosphor decay happens naturally when the pixel is not being excited by an electron beam. Plasma TV has phosphors, but loses very little resolution during motion. And towards the end, phosphors in CRT displays were "fast enough" to perform similar to plasma panels if they'd had 720x480x3 electron beams (or 1920x1080x3 electron beams for HD). Plasma and CRT should be equally "fast". In fact, CRT could operate at higher refresh rates than 60 Hz and still not show appreciable blur.

The only time pixel persistence has been an obvious issue was back in the days of green or orange monochrome computer monitors where phosphors were intentionally "slow" in order to reduce flicker effects under typical fluorescent office lighting. But those "slow" phosphors were intentionally "slow" not state of the art fast phosphors used for full motion video.

LCD pixels respond slowly while being actively driven to new states (i.e. red 82% to red 21% to red 4% to red 99%... in each case the pixel is actively driven but takes it's sweet time actually getting to the new state. There's no "emulation" going on in LCD tech, they are just trying to hide the blur which is worse in LCD than CRT has been since the 1960s or thereabouts.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #18 of 64 Old 07-25-2013, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Still... phosphor decay happens naturally when the pixel is not being excited by an electron beam. Plasma TV has phosphors, but loses very little resolution during motion. And towards the end, phosphors in CRT displays were "fast enough" to perform similar to plasma panels if they'd had 720x480x3 electron beams (or 1920x1080x3 electron beams for HD). Plasma and CRT should be equally "fast". In fact, CRT could operate at higher refresh rates than 60 Hz and still not show appreciable blur.

The only time pixel persistence has been an obvious issue was back in the days of green or orange monochrome computer monitors where phosphors were intentionally "slow" in order to reduce flicker effects under typical fluorescent office lighting. But those "slow" phosphors were intentionally "slow" not state of the art fast phosphors used for full motion video.

LCD pixels respond slowly while being actively driven to new states (i.e. red 82% to red 21% to red 4% to red 99%... in each case the pixel is actively driven but takes it's sweet time actually getting to the new state. There's no "emulation" going on in LCD tech, they are just trying to hide the blur which is worse in LCD than CRT has been since the 1960s or thereabouts.

are there any LED/LCDs out there that have full motion resolution (identical to CRT and Plasma) and how can one distinguish the difference between motion blur in the source and motion blur created by the display (because sources like 30 fps video games and 24 fps movies can have quite a bit of blur built into the source before it ever gets processed by the display)?

FWIW, my Samsung LED LCD (EH6030) is 120Hz and has backlight strobing to create a 240Hz like effect (240 CMR) but has no frame interpolation of any kind (lacks Auto Motion Plus, which would include sliders for blur reduction and judder reduction)

However, it is 3D capable and for some reason handles motion better than the equivalent 120Hz 2D model with Auto Motion Plus, the EH6000. I know this because I had that model before and video games looked much blurrier on it as did HD cable TV programming and Netflix Instant Streaming.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #19 of 64 Old 07-25-2013, 11:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

LCD pixels respond slowly while being actively driven to new states (i.e. red 82% to red 21% to red 4% to red 99%... in each case the pixel is actively driven but takes it's sweet time actually getting to the new state. There's no "emulation" going on in LCD tech, they are just trying to hide the blur which is worse in LCD than CRT has been since the 1960s or thereabouts.

LOL .. OK I see we're quibbling over the term "emulation" here, even when we agree on the specifics biggrin.gif

I actually think LCD "blur" has a much to do with how our vision works as it does with the "slow" LCD response. Without having a significant "dark" interval between pixel paints (or frames,) I suspect that our vision system is simply unable to separate the sequential frames.

So whether that dark interval results from "natural phosphor decay" or shutting off the backlight, the result is the same. No? smile.gif I think the word "emulation" works here.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #20 of 64 Old 07-26-2013, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Our vision doesn't have a problem with DLP or Plasma at the same frame/refresh rates as LCD. LCD blur is nothing but a technical limitation of LCD technology... a limitation that is VERY difficult to change, otherwise more progress would have been made in eliminating the problem.

Emulation is still not even remotely close to right... "modern" CRTs have very "fast" phosphors that can operate at 72 Hz or even higher refresh rates without blur. Your notion that CRT phosphors are all "slow" and "blurry" is not correct. In fact, there's a booming subculture of HD CRT hobbyists who get into it because CRTs are the "fastest" displays they can find for gaming... nothing else is as fast from input to image.

As for whether there are any LCD products that are "blurless" -- I haven't seen any yet. Sony's $25K 1000ES projector (4K) is as close to "blurless":as I've seen from ANY LCD-based display. And Sony LCD digital cinema projectors... if they have any blur, it is DAMN difficult to find in movie content (give me some test patterns and I could probably find it though). JVC projectors with LCoS imagers are not far behind the Sony projector. But I haven't seen any LCD flat panel as good as either of those yet. I've heard Sony's 4K flat panels are excellent in regards to freedom from blur, but I haven't had one here to examine closely so can't say for sure.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #21 of 64 Old 07-26-2013, 12:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Rejhon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: North America
Posts: 8,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

By the way, you can EASILY view motion blur on LCD TVs by putting your computer's desktop on the TV, opening an image viewer app and make the image about 15% of the size of the screen or so, then grab the image with your mouse and drag it around the screen in different directions.
Here's another good demo of LCD motion blur:
Are you aware of the beta test of the brand new Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests website?

View www.testufo.com in a supported web browser that can do VSYNC (e.g. Google Chrome or IE10+, running on a recent GPU)

Several motion tests are:
www.testufo.com/#test=framerates ....... Framerate comparison
www.testufo.com/#test=photo .............. Moving photo
www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking ...... Demo of sample-and-hold blur -- eye tracking based motion blur
www.testufo.com/#test=blackframes ...... Demo of black frame insertion

The above links even works on newer iPad's as it is running a supported web browser (good way to show off).
Feel free to contact me by PM, if you'd like to discuss improvements to motion tests, for reviewer purposes (e.g. addition of moving test patterns).
Quote:
That's not to say plasma and DLP images are perfect... both have their issues. But motion blur bugs a lot of people, including me. So it's nice to have tech options where motion blur is more or less a non-issue.
Are you aware of the recent computer gaming community's buzz around LightBoost strobe backlight LCD computer monitors that have less motion blur than plasmas? (e.g. 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost, as well as the media/blogger coverage about LightBoost?) These displays achieve actual true measurable MPRT's of 1.4ms, and these outperform scanning backlights which historically has the backlight diffusion problem limiting the degree of motion blur reduction.

From measurements made, they are the first consumer LCD's already on the market, to finally exceed the motion resolution of certain CRT computer monitors, even according to oscilloscope measurements. Some former Sony FW900 CRT users have remarked that it has clearer motion than their Sony CRT (during LightBoost=10%) since 1.4ms strobes is faster than the medium-persistence CRT phosphor found on their FW900 CRT. That said, the color quality of a properly calibrated FW900 CRT is vastly superior, just that the LCD motion blur monster has finally been slayed in certain strobe-backlight LCD displays. Sony's new "Motionflow Impulse" (interpolation free) comes close, but doesn't perform as well as LightBoost. There are a bunch of "It's like a CRT" talk in various testimonials and things like the customer reviews on amazon for VG248QE (hit Control+F and find the word "lightboost").

On a 120Hz computer monitor with the LightBoost strobe backlight enabled (see list of 120Hz monitors) and viewing TestUFO: Moving Photo at 1440 pixels/sec -- this photo in motion, looks as sharp as stationary -- when you're using the LightBoost=10% setting. Motion clarity looks the same at all pixel speeds. Even the Panasonic VT50 plasma has more motion blur when viewing this moving photo at 1440 pixels/sec and faster (e.g. look at the windows in the castle at the top).

Mind you, computer gaming can be more demanding on motion blur than even sports broadcasts (this is when 1ms differences in motion blur start to become noticeable, as 1ms = 1 pixel motion blur at 1000 pixels/sec); some high end FPS gamers are quite picky on motion blur (sometimes moreso than color), buying expensive Geforce Titan's or 780's to achieve 120fps@120Hz gaming at 1920x1080 at computer-monitor-viewing distances.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

Mark Rejhon is offline  
post #22 of 64 Old 07-26-2013, 01:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Rejhon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: North America
Posts: 8,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

are there any LED/LCDs out there that have full motion resolution (identical to CRT and Plasma)
Yes. LightBoost. See above post.

And to lesser extent, Sony's new interpolation-free "Motionflow Impulse". This works great for 60fps material -- computer graphics & console games & sports motion on TV. The Sony Motionflow Impulse is a strobe backlight on Sony that outperforms scanning backlights. It comes very close too without needing to use interpolation, but it has dimness/flicker disadvantage. Do not forget to disable the ambient light sensor because it can excessively dim the image -- Motionflow Impulse becomes too dim when the ambient light sensor is enabled. Sony HDTV's in the series HX920, HX923, HX925, HX929, XBR950, W905A, W802A all now has this interpolation-free plasma-competing strobe mode, which shines during HTPC 60fps video game.

However, LightBoost is still the world's LCD motion clarity champion but is currently limited to computer usage.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

Mark Rejhon is offline  
post #23 of 64 Old 07-26-2013, 03:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Your notion that CRT phosphors are all "slow" and "blurry" is not correct. In fact, there's a booming subculture of HD CRT hobbyists who get into it because CRTs are the "fastest" displays they can find for gaming... nothing else is as fast from input to image.

WTF Doug???? I've never made that statement ... In fact,I actually imply the exact *opposite* in every post I've made in this thread.

I swear, sometimes if feels like we're saying the exact *same* thing in two completely different languages. biggrin.gif

From Merriam Webster's dictionary: Emulate: ... 2) IMITATE, to imitate ...

"Strobing," "scanning" or otherwise momentarily turning off the backlight on an LED-LCD does the exact same thing as allowing the "fast" phosphors on a CRT to decay between "paints." Namely it inserts a blank void into the temporal stream of images (or pixel paints.) The faster the phosphor, the longer the blank void will last at any given refresh rate. IOW, It's not what we *see* that's the problem, it's what we *don't* see. The problem with LCD is that it doesn't go dark *between* paints, LCD a "sample and hold" device as opposed to a momentary "on/off switch" like CRT.

As for the human vision issue, the problem is that the very same hardwiring that allows us to assemble a series of stationary pictures into a full motion image actually works against us we can't separate those stationary images apart each other ... This is what causes the "blur," not the slow response of the LCD crystals per se. If LCD response time were really the problem, then things like frame interpolation @ 120Hz or 240Hz, would look even blurrier than LCD v1.0 @60Hz. Frame interpolation is actually the wrong approach to the problem. It isn't that there's too little information being displayed, it's that the information we do have is displayed for too long.

There's a reason (or two) why old tyme film projectors use "gates" to momentarily block the light between frames. wink.gif

Now input lag, which you alluded to above, is a completely different topic. wink.gif

PS: If you still have issues with what I'm saying, I would ask that you re-read it and think (really think) about it for a while. .... Please ... for the love of whatever higher power you answer to wink.gif

Whew! I think I need an adult beverage now biggrin.gif
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #24 of 64 Old 07-27-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Yes. LightBoost. See above post.

And to lesser extent, Sony's new interpolation-free "Motionflow Impulse". This works great for 60fps material -- computer graphics & console games & sports motion on TV. The Sony Motionflow Impulse is a strobe backlight on Sony that outperforms scanning backlights. It comes very close too without needing to use interpolation, but it has dimness/flicker disadvantage. Do not forget to disable the ambient light sensor because it can excessively dim the image -- Motionflow Impulse becomes too dim when the ambient light sensor is enabled. Sony HDTV's in the series HX920, HX923, HX925, HX929, XBR950, W905A, W802A all now has this interpolation-free plasma-competing strobe mode, which shines during HTPC 60fps video game.

However, LightBoost is still the world's LCD motion clarity champion but is currently limited to computer usage.

do you know what kind approach 'LED Motion Plus' is using on Samsung LED-LCD TVs? like my UN46EH6030, which is 120Hz but doesn't use motion interpolation like most 120Hz and 240Hz Samsungs? it has a limited full-array LED backlight if that matters and is 3D capable
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #25 of 64 Old 07-27-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Our vision doesn't have a problem with DLP or Plasma at the same frame/refresh rates as LCD. LCD blur is nothing but a technical limitation of LCD technology... a limitation that is VERY difficult to change, otherwise more progress would have been made in eliminating the problem.

Emulation is still not even remotely close to right... "modern" CRTs have very "fast" phosphors that can operate at 72 Hz or even higher refresh rates without blur. Your notion that CRT phosphors are all "slow" and "blurry" is not correct. In fact, there's a booming subculture of HD CRT hobbyists who get into it because CRTs are the "fastest" displays they can find for gaming... nothing else is as fast from input to image.

As for whether there are any LCD products that are "blurless" -- I haven't seen any yet. Sony's $25K 1000ES projector (4K) is as close to "blurless":as I've seen from ANY LCD-based display. And Sony LCD digital cinema projectors... if they have any blur, it is DAMN difficult to find in movie content (give me some test patterns and I could probably find it though). JVC projectors with LCoS imagers are not far behind the Sony projector. But I haven't seen any LCD flat panel as good as either of those yet. I've heard Sony's 4K flat panels are excellent in regards to freedom from blur, but I haven't had one here to examine closely so can't say for sure.

how close do the best LCD flat-panels (HDTVs) get to CRT/Plasma level motion performance? I guess I'm asking about direct view/flat-panel displays only.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #26 of 64 Old 07-27-2013, 09:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Rejhon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: North America
Posts: 8,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

do you know what kind approach 'LED Motion Plus' is using on Samsung LED-LCD TVs? like my UN46EH6030, which is 120Hz but doesn't use motion interpolation like most 120Hz and 240Hz Samsungs? it has a limited full-array LED backlight if that matters and is 3D capable
Most Samsung scanning backlights I've seen, require the use of interpolation, plus also they can't manage the scale of motion-blur-eliminating efficiencies that newer strobe backlights technologies can do. Most scanning backlights only improve things by small amounts, such as 50% improvement (1.5x better), 100% improvement (2x better). But the newer strobe technologies have actual measured scale of efficiences that can go from ~3x to ~12x improvement in motion blur. (12x improvement occurs with LightBoost=10% -- where you used to get over 10 pixels of LCD motion blur in fast full-framerate pans going half-a-screen-width per second, you now get less than 1 pixel of blur in the exact same fast pan).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

how close do the best LCD flat-panels (HDTVs) get to CRT/Plasma level motion performance? I guess I'm asking about direct view/flat-panel displays only.
On that note, when Doug replies to you, I want to find out if Doug Blackburn has yet tested Sony's new interpolation-free "Motionflow Impulse". It is not as good as the best plasmas (e.g. Kuro) but it starts to outperform several lower-quality plasmas in some motion attributes. Such high-efficiency low-lag interpolation-free strobe backlights, are so brand new, that most reviewers have not tested these fully.

The main problem with Sony's interpolation-free Motionflow Impulse is loss of brightness (turning off the ambient light sensor helps), and the 60Hz flicker. However, it's something that needs to be on the table during testing by magazine reviewers (for 60fps testing -- sports / gaming console / HTPC), since I've mentioned that it is currently the LCD HDTV champion in interpolation-free motion blur elimination, which doesn't add too much input lag, so it's the first LCD motion-blur-eliminator available in Game Mode. To get any better than that on LCD technology, needs to move to the 120Hz computer monitor world (24"-27" sizes) where you now have the CRT-motion-resolution-matching LightBoost strobe backlights (see motion blur chart). With LightBoost enabled, configured to 10% strobe-length setting, and running at 120fps@120Hz, I can actually resolve single-pixel details (hair-line details that are only 1/1920th of the screen width) during moving test patterns moving at 1440 pixels/second (three-quarters of screen width per second) -- you can't even do that with a plasma display. Out of current technologies, only CRT and LightBoost displays are able to do that. But excluding the high-end computer monitor world, the current champion in LCD motion blur elimination, is currently the Motionflow Impulse setting of some newer Sony HDTV's, not plasma-beating, but at least approximately plasma-competing, without using interpolation.

Past scanning backlights have long been vastly hampered backlight diffusion (on segments interfering with off segments), which interferes with motion blur elimination. The full-strobe backlight technologies (LightBoost in monitors, and Motionflow Impulse in Sony HDTV's) finally solve the scanning backlight diffusion problem and manage to efficiently eliminate motion blur in a rather dramatic way never seen before on LCD's.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

Mark Rejhon is offline  
post #27 of 64 Old 07-27-2013, 10:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Meanwhile out in the real world, I suspect that 90% of what people call LCD "blur" is actually just MPEG2 compression artifacts (perhaps "enhanced" by too high of a setting on the sharpness control.) I moved from a CRT RPTV to a basic 60Hz EEFL backlighted LCD a couple of years ago. In the two years since, I can only remember one instance where I saw "blur" that was probably caused solely by the LCD set. Then again, I don't sit 4 feet away from a 60" display either. ... More like 9 feet from a 42"er ... yes, on purpose. smile.gif

Yes, I've watched more than a few hockey/football/basketball games without any significant blur trauma. Ironically, the blur instance mentioned above actually occurred on a figure skating broadcast. ... YMMV.

My point is simply that I suspect the issue of LCD blur has probably been a wee bit "overhyped." The more significant problem remains the source material. For instance, I saw "The Hobbit: Part 1" in a modern digitally sourced, DLP theater and there was plenty of "blur" to be seen especially during the "magic mountain ride" romp through the goblins' cave.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #28 of 64 Old 07-28-2013, 03:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Meanwhile out in the real world, I suspect that 90% of what people call LCD "blur" is actually just MPEG2 compression artifacts (perhaps "enhanced" by too high of a setting on the sharpness control.) I moved from a CRT RPTV to a basic 60Hz EEFL backlighted LCD a couple of years ago. In the two years since, I can only remember one instance where I saw "blur" that was probably caused solely by the LCD set. Then again, I don't sit 4 feet away from a 60" display either. ... More like 9 feet from a 42"er ... yes, on purpose. smile.gif

Yes, I've watched more than a few hockey/football/basketball games without any significant blur trauma. Ironically, the blur instance mentioned above actually occurred on a figure skating broadcast. ... YMMV.

My point is simply that I suspect the issue of LCD blur has probably been a wee bit "overhyped." The more significant problem remains the source material. For instance, I saw "The Hobbit: Part 1" in a modern digitally sourced, DLP theater and there was plenty of "blur" to be seen especially during the "magic mountain ride" romp through the goblins' cave.




The last years I have personally Checked over 400 Consumer LCD/LED from 19 inch to 60 inch using various Moving Resolution Videos (Motion Graphics or Actual Video Content) from the above Disk Collection and from others I have at my HDD...

None LCD/LED Model (without Motion Enhancement Enabled) comes ever close to the Cheapest LG Plasma 720p/1080p Model.... There's a lot of motion blur anywhere in LED/LCD....

During the test I'm always checking 6 Panels the same time (1 Cheap Plasma vs. 5 LCD/LED) from Singal that it comes from Video Streamer with 6x HDMI Native Outputs the same time. The Motion Resolution Tests are 60i or 50i and some 24p. You can't use 24p Signal to compare Motion Resolution because 24 frames are not enough... 24 fps motion judder is native problem.

With Motion Enhancement Enabled there's an improvement to some LCD/LED TV's but there a lot of picture artifacts, these artifact are very easy to be noticed by anyone using some reference motion patterns, but there dificult to see at actual contect, but if you are familiar with these Motion Tests for years, it's easier to notice that artifacts problems to actual content easier.

There scenes at all movies (like The Hobbit) that the camera is moving so fast that the 24p can't capture the full resolution during the camera motion flow..so the picture is becoming blurred due to that fps limit.

If you pause that 'blurred' scene you are talking, you will see that the picture is not clear at all at pause mode or if you bluray player or pc player has 'next frame forward' button you will see that the 24fps are not enough for these scene becasue they can't capture the full action/motion from frame to frame.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #29 of 64 Old 07-28-2013, 03:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

My 2012 Samsung LED LCD has the 'LED Motion Plus' feature that uses either backlight scanning or strobing (not sure which) to supposedly reduce motion blur. My question is about meter profiling and whether this feature has any impact on a profile. For example, if I create a profile for my C6 with the i1pro spectro with the TV having LED Motion Plus OFF and then use the profiled C6 while LED Motion Plus is ON, will the profile be any less accurate? And vice versa?

And while I'm on the subject of display settings and meter profiles, if I was to create a meter profile with the display in it's default home picture settings [standard mode] (or even default store [dynamic] mode for that matter) would it be any less accurate than one done in Movie mode? Basically are there any settings on the TV that can affect profiling and thus must be set correctly/consistently before profiling to ensure the profiling works?

Use your C6 unprofiled and run a 21-Step Grayscale + 5/10-Step Saturation/Luminance with Motion Plus Disabled, Then do the same run but with Motion Plus Enabled.

Later run the above 2 tests by using only the i1PRO. Then Report your findings.... Is there difference in chromaticity? or only at Luminance?

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #30 of 64 Old 07-28-2013, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Use your C6 unprofiled and run a 21-Step Grayscale + 5/10-Step Saturation/Luminance with Motion Plus Disabled, Then do the same run but with Motion Plus Enabled.

Later run the above 2 tests by using only the i1PRO. Then Report your findings.... Is there difference in chromaticity? or only at Luminance?

thanks, I'll give it go when I get a chance and post my results here

but do I really need to do saturation or luminance sweeps for gamut or can a just do a typical 75% color run (100% sat, 75% stim)?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off