First time calibration with Spectracal C3 and VT60 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 07-20-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I have pretty much no experience with calibration other than using AVIA and Video Essentials to set basic color, tint, contrast and brightness. So, I decided to pick up the basic kit from SpectraCal that includes the C3 meter and a tutorial license for Cal Man 5. I am using AVS HD disc for patterns and have a Panasonic BDT220 blu ray player. The display is a 65VT60, stand mounted in a medium to bright lit room. I have had the set 3 weeks. I'm guessing a little more than 100 hrs on it. I found the tutorial to be somewhat frustrating as they seem to think you already know what patterns to use. I think I figured it out and used the CalMan window patterns for grayscale and full color. I don't understand how to know when to adjust high or low for RGB in the W/B settings. I just kept adjusting until all three colors were as close to 0 for each step. The error was worse in the 40-60% range. One thing I saw that I didn't understand was white and 100% white. Besides not have adjustments to white, I only saw 100% white as a pattern.

I went through the calibration blindly without concern on what the setting were,trying not to base anything on what I think they should be or have seen others post. So, when I was done, I get the settings below. First thing I noticed was I couldn't get white balance to show true white even at 100 contrast. I also find the final setting for brightness to be much higher than what I've seen others posting. I went through color and tint twice and came up with the same settings, but again, they seem high. I find it really odd that my W/B settings are so extreme. I don't recall the error and when I went to save the calibration, it crashed, so I don't have a report. I was going to redo everything in Pro 2 when it gets dark and see how things change.

If anyone has any comments, I'd like to hear where you can see obvious flaws or things that don't make sense. If that is possible without setting how the setting look on the display. Is there a basic "how to" or guide that would help me learn more about how the setting work and interact?

Picture Mode Professional 1
Contrast 100
Brightness 18
Color 54
Tint 7
Sharpness 50
Color temp Warm 2
Vivid Off
CATS Off
Video NR Off
MPEG Remaster Off
Resolution Remaster Off
Caption Smoother Off
Brilliance enhancer Off
Motion smoother Off

Pro Settings
Panel Brightness Mid
AGC 0
Black Extension 0
Color gamut Rec 709

W/B detail adjustment
Red High 1
Green High 1
Blue High 0
Red Low 5
Green Low 1
Blue Low 1

Color detail adjustments
Red 6, -4, -24
Green -1, -11, -35
Blue -5, 2, -28
Cyan -13, -4, -47
Magenta -31, -8, -49
Yellow -23, -4, -39

Gamma 2.4
more detail adjustment - no changes

Advanced picture
Game mode Off
24p Direct in 96Hz
1080p pure direct On
HDMI content type - auto on all
HDMI/DVI RGB range Standard (16-235)
Black Level Light

Screen Settings
Format Full
Overscan Off
H size 1
Screen display On
4:3 side bars Off
Pixel orbiter Auto
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post #2 of 18 Old 07-20-2013, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick pic with these settings. Cell phone picture adds red.
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post #3 of 18 Old 07-20-2013, 06:32 PM
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^^^^^^

Ok, one of the keys when you first start to learn to calibrate, is don't over calibrate. Keep your changes small, stay away from using Green as much as possible for your grayscale/balance/gamma. If you find you are making a lot of changes to your setting and keep going back to those setting to make more changes it maybe time to start over..
The reason why I am only showing a limited starting point is you can first learn and set on your own. Use the default setting for Gamut and Gamma adjustments.
Use your AVSHD disc to see how just these setting look using the contrast test and the brightness test. Look at the clipping pattern (flashing bars)
are the bars flashing up to say 244, are the bars all gray in color.
Using Calman what is your peak light output white (30FL to 35FL), is your low light reading about .0012FL. If yes then you now have a good starting point.
You can now try to make small changes to your W/B detail settings, Be very careful not to make large changes to the 100 W/B detail settings and stay away from using green. Also look at your RGB charts a see if when you change say Red how does it affect Green and Blue..

Once you get a better understanding of these settings and the effect they have on the over all calibration then go on to your Gamut/CMS.

Picture Mode Professional 1
Contrast 63
Brightness +1
Color 50
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Color temp Warm 2
Vivid Off
CATS Off
Video NR Off
MPEG Remaster Off
Resolution Remaster Off
Caption Smoother Off
Brilliance enhancer Off
Motion smoother Off

Pro Settings
Panel Brightness Mid
AGC 0
Black Extension 0
Color gamut Rec 709

W/B detail adjustment
Red High -3
Green High 0
Blue High -3
Red Low 0
Green Low 0
Blue Low 0

It takes time, so keep the faith.smile.gif

ss
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post #4 of 18 Old 07-20-2013, 06:50 PM
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Good tips from ss.

One thing I want to point out, though, is that I think the VT60's mll is below the C3's range of readability.
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post #5 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback. I did try again in the dark. I am getting the same results for color and tint. It I leave them at 50 and 0, the blinking squares are very obvious with the blue filter. With 63 contrast and 1 brightness, the white bars were showing about half way across the screen. Several past the reference point. The 16 bar on black looked pretty good. When I got to the CMS, I again notice that all of the colors luminescence readings are off the chart to start with. It doesn't tell me what charts to use, so I am using the ones from Calman window 100% color. I read them all, then started on yellow and brought luminescence down 17 to get it close to right. I had a late start and at this point it was 2 am and decided to call it a night. Seemed like I was making to big of an adjustment again.
I don't know how to check peak light output?
After setting brightness, contrast, tint and color, the tutorial sets RGB using 10-109% and then sets all the colors from 100%. I don't recall it going through any other steps or taking other readings. But I've only been through it twice.
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post #6 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Rabbit View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I did try again in the dark. I am getting the same results for color and tint. It I leave them at 50 and 0, the blinking squares are very obvious with the blue filter. With 63 contrast and 1 brightness, the white bars were showing about half way across the screen. Several past the reference point. The 16 bar on black looked pretty good. When I got to the CMS, I again notice that all of the colors luminescence readings are off the chart to start with. It doesn't tell me what charts to use, so I am using the ones from Calman window 100% color. I read them all, then started on yellow and brought luminescence down 17 to get it close to right. I had a late start and at this point it was 2 am and decided to call it a night. Seemed like I was making to big of an adjustment again.
I don't know how to check peak light output?
After setting brightness, contrast, tint and color, the tutorial sets RGB using 10-109% and then sets all the colors from 100%. I don't recall it going through any other steps or taking other readings. But I've only been through it twice.

You can check light output with the meter positioning step in the basic workflow.

Also, and apologies if I'm stating the obvious: the tutorial version doesn't support reporting but you can take screenshots, crop the graphs/readings and put them into your posts here. I've been doing that when I needed help.

One more edit: are you sure you should be selecting the 109% option for white balance?

Adjusting settings according to personal preference is not calibration.
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post #7 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Rabbit View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I did try again in the dark. I am getting the same results for color and tint. It I leave them at 50 and 0, the blinking squares are very obvious with the blue filter Forget about changing Color and Tint using a blue filter, leave it at the default. With 63 contrast and 1 brightness, the white bars were showing about half way across the screen. Several past the reference point. The 16 bar on black looked pretty good. Thats all good When I got to the CMS, I again notice that all of the colors luminescence readings are off the chart to start with. It doesn't tell me what charts to use, so I am using the ones from Calman window 100% color. Use the color windows in your AVSHD disc I read them all, then started on yellow and brought luminescence down 17 to get it close to right. I had a late start and at this point it was 2 am and decided to call it a night. Seemed like I was making to big of an adjustment again.
I don't know how to check peak light output? At this time your peak light out put probably is abut 30FtL to 33 FtL, that's good.
After setting brightness, contrast, tint and color, the tutorial sets RGB using 10-109% and then sets all the colors from 100%. I don't recall it going through any other steps or taking other readings. But I've only been through it twice. Don't worry about 10-109%, worry about 10 to 100%. when you set your 100% using the controls in your VT60 that is setting peak light. and once you set 100% don't change it.

My reply's are in Blue

As I have suggested don't try and adjust everything, start with your RGB grayscale/color temp. Once you get a understanding of how to set your RGB using the 10 Point settings in your VT60 then move on to your CMS/Gamut. One step at a time.

As rahzel pointed out your meter or for that matter consumer grade meters like the I1Pro2, I1display pro 2 will not be very effective reading below 30%.

I don't have tutorial so I don't know how your work flow goes, I do have Calman 5 Professional.

ss
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post #8 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I went back to the start and used the basic tutorial. I started with the settings you suggested above.

The color temperature was between 6530 and 6560 before. 6480 - 6495 after the changes

I didn't really follow the next section on setting gamma. You input the gamma value and then take 2 measurements (30 and 80) and it tells you the gamma. Problem is it only allow a series reading, not a single reading, so i have to guess when and switch 2 chapters to change from 80 to 30 mid stream. I tried 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4.
2.0 = 1.9
2.2 = 1.8
2.4 = 2.0
The one that matched the closes was 2.0, so I went with it.

With 100% green, this is what it shows before changes.

After changing RGB.


I then adjusted RGB at 80 and 30. Here are the before and after shots. I didn't make any changes to green. I ended up with the following:
RH 1
GH 0
BH -1
RL -1
GL 0
BL 2

BEFORE

AFTER
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post #9 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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It was much easier to get 100 to balance out nicely, but after getting it set, the 30 would be messed up. Usually low on red. I "settled" on the settings above, trying to balance both of them.
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post #10 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Rabbit View Post

I went back to the start and used the basic tutorial. I started with the settings you suggested above.

The color temperature was between 6530 and 6560 before. 6480 - 6495 after the changes

I didn't really follow the next section on setting gamma. You input the gamma value and then take 2 measurements (30 and 80) and it tells you the gamma. Problem is it only allow a series reading, not a single reading, so i have to guess when and switch 2 chapters to change from 80 to 30 mid stream. I tried 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4.
2.0 = 1.9
2.2 = 1.8
2.4 = 2.0
The one that matched the closes was 2.0, so I went with it.

With 100% green, this is what it shows before changes. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
After changing RGB. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I then adjusted RGB at 80 and 30. Here are the before and after shots. I didn't make any changes to green. I ended up with the following:
RH 1
GH 0
BH -1
RL -1
GL 0
BL 2

BEFORE Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
AFTER Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

That's a good looking 2-point greyscale smile.gif

The multi-point (10-point) GS step will give you an average gamma number across all 10 points. I correct my gamma at specific points if the average changes a lot as I move up from 10%. Not entirely accurate, I know.

On a side note: I asked Spectracal support which version above tutorial that will give me a gamma reading for each point. Strangely enough, especially considering that I was basically sitting there with my credit card in hand and ready to upgrade, they didn't want to answer.

Adjusting settings according to personal preference is not calibration.
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post #11 of 18 Old 07-22-2013, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Rabbit View Post

It was much easier to get 100 to balance out nicely, but after getting it set, the 30 would be messed up. Usually low on red. I "settled" on the settings above, trying to balance both of them.

100 is the one you want to get spot on. 30 close is fine.

Now you are starting to see how changing say Red at 100 will affect Red at 30, also blue will probably be affected a little.. So if you know you need to raise Red at 30 set Red at 100 a tick or two low, you raise Red at 30 that should affect Red at 100 by raising it. Also you are seeing that raising Red and Blue is dropping Green without changing (+-) green.

When you do start on your CIE chart Gamut/CMS you will see the same thing happen. That's why I said to start with the primary's Red, Green and Blue, once you have gotten RGB close then the secondary's should also be close and not need much adjustments.

You are starting to learn, keep the faith and you will get there, it just takes time.
Also at this point I would start to check to see if you are getting any IR from the pattern window. What I do when I start to see IR is leave my screen sweeper on over night.

btw, are you still setting color and or tint, and I hope you have 0 out any settings for color gamut. Why I say this is because the Green circle in your CIE chart should be at or beyond the green square at this stage.

ss
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post #12 of 18 Old 07-23-2013, 03:12 AM
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I noticed you are referring to a setting called Warm 2, but on my 50 VT60 there is only Cool, Normal and Warm.
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post #13 of 18 Old 07-23-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Helder Carvalho View Post

I noticed you are referring to a setting called Warm 2, but on my 50 VT60 there is only Cool, Normal and Warm.

I take it you don't have a North American model ?

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post #14 of 18 Old 07-23-2013, 09:38 AM
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Nop, Continental Europe 50VT60EU
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post #15 of 18 Old 07-23-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Helder Carvalho View Post

Nop, Continental Europe 50VT60EU

Sorry I am talking about the USA version of the VT60. You may want to add in your sig or locate where you are from and that you have Continental Europe VT60.

That said I would think the basic's I am talking about would still be helpful.

ss
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post #16 of 18 Old 07-23-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post


btw, are you still setting color and or tint, and I hope you have 0 out any settings for color gamut. Why I say this is because the Green circle in your CIE chart should be at or beyond the green square at this stage.

ss

I picked up ControlCAL and ran through the whole thing again. Wow, so much easier with the ControlCAL connection.

Before I started, I checked the settings and the color detail adjustments were not zero. I cleared them all before I started again and the circle is in the box now.

I figured out how measure light output and it was 35.85.

I did a two point and then did the 10 pt. Seems like anything 30 and under doesn't want to balance out. I adjusted 30 as best I could and left 10 and 20 at 0. I would suspect my color meter is limiting me here, but for $150, I'm not complaining.



I also went back through the colors. I found that lum has to be turned way down on most all of the colors.



I am still using SS basic setting and skipping adjustments for color, tint, brightness, contrast and sharpness.
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post #17 of 18 Old 09-03-2013, 09:29 PM
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I am reading your thread with keen interest in your progress. I recently bought a 65" VT60 and am strongly considering purchasing the CalMAN bundle with the C3 meter. Thanks for posting.

Panasonic TC-P65VT60
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post #18 of 18 Old 09-04-2013, 09:44 AM
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IMO, the D3 colorimeter (retail or OEM version) is a better investement than the C3 if you plan on calibrating for years to come and also possibly for better low light sensitivity which could be useful on displays like the VT60 which have extremely dark black levels.
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