Samsung Cal-Day and Cal-Night share 10pt grayscale? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 08-07-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I found firmware 1109 of Samsung F8500 shared the same 10pt grayscale and CMS values between Cal-Night and Cal-Day. It is buggy or not?
If not correct, how do I get 10pt GS independent from video modes?
Another thing is color temp higher than 50 IRE didn't move at all even if the value is maxed.. Is it also another recent bug found in Samsung firmware?

Thanks for reading...
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post #2 of 22 Old 08-07-2013, 01:01 PM
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Greetings

Depending on where you set the contrast control, the 10 point GS does not always correspond with a specific % pattern. You can be moving 50% all over the place and not see anything with the 50% pattern, but 60% is all whacked out or 40% is all whacked out. You need to check the stuff around 50% to see what is really going on with the control.

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post #3 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Depending on where you set the contrast control, the 10 point GS does not always correspond with a specific % pattern. You can be moving 50% all over the place and not see anything with the 50% pattern, but 60% is all whacked out or 40% is all whacked out. You need to check the stuff around 50% to see what is really going on with the control.

regards

does 10-pt work this way on all Samsungs that have it? LG seems to have implemented their 10-pt controls better (at least that was my experience with the LK450 LCD).


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post #4 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Michael. If you say Contrast, it's 85 and it's not set higher than default value 90.
I haven't seen this issue with Samsung LED D or E series before. F8500 with firmware 1109 didn't work very well to me. 50 - 100 IRE hardly moved.
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post #5 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 10:11 AM
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On the Samsung D-series plasma the 10-point controls shift at lower contrast settings.

E.g. at contrast 90 they're fine (2 affects 20%, 3 affects 30% etc), at contrast 85 some shift one click (6 affects 70%, 7 affects 80% etc), and at contrast 75 they shift both one and two clicks (3 affects 40%, 4 affects 50% and then 6 affects 80% and 7 affects 90%).

These are examples only but pretty close to what I get on my set. Identifying which control affects what isn't too hard of course. The biggest problem is that in my contrast 75 example above, the 5 control affects both 60% and 70%. That can be a challenge sometimes...

Changing contrast just one click can have a big effect on where the shifts occur. So, for example, getting a nice flat dE graph is nearly impossible at contrast 75 but changing to 76 or 74 may make calibration much easier.

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post #6 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

On the Samsung D-series plasma the 10-point controls shift at lower contrast settings.

E.g. at contrast 90 they're fine (2 affects 20%, 3 affects 30% etc), at contrast 85 some shift one click (6 affects 70%, 7 affects 80% etc), and at contrast 75 they shift both one and two clicks (3 affects 40%, 4 affects 50% and then 6 affects 80% and 7 affects 90%).

These are examples only but pretty close to what I get on my set. Identifying which control affects what isn't too hard of course. The biggest problem is that in my contrast 75 example above, the 5 control affects both 60% and 70%. That can be a challenge sometimes...

Changing contrast just one click can have a big effect on where the shifts occur. So, for example, getting a nice flat dE graph is nearly impossible at contrast 75 but changing to 76 or 74 may make calibration much easier.

I've also experienced this with the C and D series plasma.
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post #7 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 12:25 PM
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Curious: Can you stack 10pt on top of the 2pt GS on these, or is it either/or?

On my LG LCD it appears to be designed specifically to scale the adjustment points based on the Contrast a/o the 2pt RGB "drive" level. In fact, it even calculates the target luminance levels for you (based on power law gamma, of course.) I don't understand how LG can manage to do this for a $500 set, but it seems to escape the abilities of Samsung and Panasonic designers even on their top-of-the-line displays. confused.gifwink.gif
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post #8 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 01:10 PM
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A very interesting post here on the spectracal site about the shift in the 10 point on certain models when contrast and brightness are moved from default. There is a very slick way to test this out as you will see if you read this post.
http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=4808#p31663

Doug

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post #9 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Curious: Can you stack 10pt on top of the 2pt GS on these, or is it either/or?

On my LG LCD it appears to be designed specifically to scale the adjustment points based on the Contrast a/o the 2pt RGB "drive" level. In fact, it even calculates the target luminance levels for you (based on power law gamma, of course.) I don't understand how LG can manage to do this for a $500 set, but it seems to escape the abilities of Samsung and Panasonic designers even on their top-of-the-line displays. confused.gifwink.gif

Good question. I have to bottom out the 2-point red gain on my set (I have to set it to 0 on the 0-50 scale, default is 25) in order to get the dE low enough. Although I never gave it any thought, I've definitely been able to move the red high end both ways i.e. also down using the 10-point afterwards.

I think that's what you meant. If not, please ignore smile.gif

Adjusting settings according to personal preference is not
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post #10 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

Good question. I have to bottom out the 2-point red gain on my set (I have to set it to 0 on the 0-50 scale, default is 25) in order to get the dE low enough. Although I never gave it any thought, I've definitely been able to move the red high end both ways i.e. also down using the 10-point afterwards.

I think that's what you meant. If not, please ignore smile.gif

Sounds like you deciphered my post. On my LG the "stacking" is more of a way to knock out 90% of the work. You can do it all with the 10pt, it just means doing more adjustment at each point, plus the 2pt is the only way to deal with the 109% stimulus level and the sub 10%, if the your meter has enough game to go that low.

I have no way to "prove" it, but I suspect the LG 2pt GS controls actually control "drive" levels, while the 10pt GS and CMS manipulate the source video like a LUT would. But that's just a WAG.
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post #11 of 22 Old 08-08-2013, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

A very interesting post here on the spectracal site about the shift in the 10 point on certain models when contrast and brightness are moved from default. There is a very slick way to test this out as you will see if you read this post.
http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=4808#p31663

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post #12 of 22 Old 08-09-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Curious: Can you stack 10pt on top of the 2pt GS on these, or is it either/or?

On my LG LCD it appears to be designed specifically to scale the adjustment points based on the Contrast a/o the 2pt RGB "drive" level. In fact, it even calculates the target luminance levels for you (based on power law gamma, of course.) I don't understand how LG can manage to do this for a $500 set, but it seems to escape the abilities of Samsung and Panasonic designers even on their top-of-the-line displays. confused.gifwink.gif

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Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

Good question. I have to bottom out the 2-point red gain on my set (I have to set it to 0 on the 0-50 scale, default is 25) in order to get the dE low enough. Although I never gave it any thought, I've definitely been able to move the red high end both ways i.e. also down using the 10-point afterwards.

I think that's what you meant. If not, please ignore smile.gif

I agree, Samsung should have fixed this behavior with their 10-pt controls by now since this issue has been going on in one form or another for several years (basically since the 10-pt controls with first introduced on Samsungs in the C models, 2010).

FWIW, not all Samsungs that have 10-pt controls actually need them (unless you want to use BT.1886 gamma, since native gamma is using the power formula). My EH6030 doesn't have 10pt controls but doesn't need them (very flat, linear RGB tracking and [power] gamma with 2-pt controls).


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post #13 of 22 Old 08-09-2013, 11:14 PM
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I agree, Samsung should have fixed this behavior with their 10-pt controls by now since this issue has been going on in one form or another for several years (basically since the 10-pt controls with first introduced on Samsungs in the C models, 2010).

To me, it seems that this is one of those things that takes far more effort to get wrong than it does to get right. If you design it as a LUT(ish), then it doesn't matter where the contrast is set, the 10 (or more) adjustment points will be tied directly to the input values (or ranges of values.) There would still be "interactions" with the contrast and brightness, but you would be sure that the control for 100% stimulus would always be centered at ~235 digital, etc, etc.

Simple. Pretty hard to mess it up. confused.gif

The only reasons I can see for *not* doing it this way would be an insufficient number of internal processing bits (banding a/o dynamic range compression) or concern over additional processing "lag." Perhaps its a plasma thing?
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post #14 of 22 Old 08-10-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

To me, it seems that this is one of those things that takes far more effort to get wrong than it does to get right. If you design it as a LUT(ish), then it doesn't matter where the contrast is set, the 10 (or more) adjustment points will be tied directly to the input values (or ranges of values.) There would still be "interactions" with the contrast and brightness, but you would be sure that the control for 100% stimulus would always be centered at ~235 digital, etc, etc.

Simple. Pretty hard to mess it up. confused.gif

The only reasons I can see for *not* doing it this way would be an insufficient number of internal processing bits (banding a/o dynamic range compression) or concern over additional processing "lag." Perhaps its a plasma thing?

I think Samsung's calibration controls/picture settings are known for using a high number of internal processing bits (pretty sure Doug Blackburn posted something about this several times). However, it's not uncommon to see issues with the 10-pt controls and even with the 3D CMS (some samples have a broken CMS that doesn't work like it should and so using the Auto Color Space preset is the only good option for those samples). Also, the N/D modes on some Samsungs (that are unlocked in the SM but are found in the user menu once unlocked) are often broken in varying ways. For example, the N/D modes on my EH series LED-LCD generate much more banding on continuous R, G, and B ramps than Movie pic mode or even Standard pic mode (both Movie and Standard can be calibrated to the same level of accuracy on my set, just with different numbers for stuff like contrast, color, and white balance). Furthermore, the black level measures quite a bit higher in the N/D modes than it does in Movie mode and that is with both modes calibrated to match each other (and both modes disable auto-dimming so the backlight is fixed).

My point is that Samsung seems to have gotten their 2-pt controls (and basic controls like brightness/contrast, color/tint, and sharpness) right across normal calibrate-able pic modes (Movie and Standard) but more advanced areas like 10-pt and CMS are much more hit or miss as are the N/D modes in general. Furthermore, this has been going on for a very long time and it seems fixing these issues is not a priority for Samsung (probably since calibration is not a priority for ~99% of consumers).

And while on the subject of picture settings/features that are often wonky on Samsungs, there is the issue with Auto Motion Plus (their frame interpolation feature), which is broken on many Samsungs made in the last several years... with issues like frame skipping, excessive judder, and other artifacts.


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post #15 of 22 Old 08-10-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

My point is that Samsung seems to have gotten their 2-pt controls (and basic controls like brightness/contrast, color/tint, and sharpness) right across normal calibrate-able pic modes (Movie and Standard) but more advanced areas like 10-pt and CMS are much more hit or miss as are the N/D modes in general. Furthermore, this has been going on for a very long time and it seems fixing these issues is not a priority for Samsung (probably since calibration is not a priority for ~99% of consumers).

Which is why Samsung (and Panasonic for slightly different reasons) always seem to drop off of my "consideration" lists. We're over half way through 2013 ... 4K/UHD/OLED is lurking ... It's ridiculous that problems like this still make it into the food chain. For the most part, it's not even a technical limitation, it's a simply a user interface issue ... Just feed your software engineers a few more cans of RedBull and pizza and git'er done. wink.gif
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post #16 of 22 Old 08-10-2013, 02:25 PM
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I had read that samsung tv's had day/night modes for calibration similar to the ISF modes but without official (read:paid) ISF branding. Is it included/accessible by all models or restricted to certain yrs/models/countries?
SideNote: I have an es6500 I game on alot so I wanted to calibrate it while in game mode. I didn't think it was possible since it forces standard pic mode but it turned out excellent.

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post #17 of 22 Old 08-10-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by nodixe View Post

I had read that samsung tv's had day/night modes for calibration similar to the ISF modes but without official (read:paid) ISF branding. Is it included/accessible by all models or restricted to certain yrs/models/countries?
SideNote: I have an es6500 I game on alot so I wanted to calibrate it while in game mode. I didn't think it was possible since it forces standard pic mode but it turned out excellent.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

Those are the Cal-Day and Cal-Night modes mentioned by the OP. On my 64D7000 they had to be enabled in the service menu before use. I don't know if they're available out of the box on other models.

Due to the issues that the OP also mentions I find them to be useless though.

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post #18 of 22 Old 08-11-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nodixe View Post

I had read that samsung tv's had day/night modes for calibration similar to the ISF modes but without official (read:paid) ISF branding. Is it included/accessible by all models or restricted to certain yrs/models/countries?
SideNote: I have an es6500 I game on alot so I wanted to calibrate it while in game mode. I didn't think it was possible since it forces standard pic mode but it turned out excellent.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

standard mode calibrates very much the same as movie mode on the 2012 models (E/ES/EH series)... you just need to turn off all the unwanted crap under advanced settings, and choose the correct color space and color temp presets (Auto and Warm1/Warm2)


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post #19 of 22 Old 08-11-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Which is why Samsung (and Panasonic for slightly different reasons) always seem to drop off of my "consideration" lists. We're over half way through 2013 ... 4K/UHD/OLED is lurking ... It's ridiculous that problems like this still make it into the food chain. For the most part, it's not even a technical limitation, it's a simply a user interface issue ... Just feed your software engineers a few more cans of RedBull and pizza and git'er done. wink.gif

well, the real question is whether you need those controls in the first place (10-pt and CMS) on whatever Samsung model you're considering... my set does not (technically I could get all gamut errors from under 3 to under 1 but that has no real world impact so who cares... and grayscale errors are already all under 1)

it's kinda of like the argument for external video processors with 3D LUTs... do all sets really need them? probably not and you could even argue the ones that could benefit from them might only gain a modest improvement in the eyes of the average A/V enthusiast

and let's not forget PQ is more than just about calibration... stuff like black levels/contrast ratios, uniformity, viewing angles, motion handling, etc. matter too


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post #20 of 22 Old 08-11-2013, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Seems it's bug..

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420588/how-to-save-daylight-and-night-settings-for-samsung-es-series-tv#post_22226079
Quote:
These cal day and night modes are buggy. I just did a UN- ES7100 the other day and couldn't use them because the 10 pt controls were global between the day and night, and that causes problems.
Might be possible to use Cal Day and then Movie for night, since movie's 10 pt controls weren't tied in with the cal modes.
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post #21 of 22 Old 08-11-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

well, the real question is whether you need those controls in the first place (10-pt and CMS) on whatever Samsung model you're considering... my set does not (technically I could get all gamut errors from under 3 to under 1 but that has no real world impact so who cares... and grayscale errors are already all under 1)

To save some time:

Me: Does it have a BT.1886 "preset?"

You: No, but do we really need BT1886 since no studios are really using it.

Me: Well it is the standard after all . wink.gifbiggrin.gif

--- To be honest, I've actually backed off from using BT1886, 1) for the reason stated above and 2) I'm always exhausted after doing a bt1886 calibration and 3) I'm sure my i1Pro is a bit wibbly-wobbly down in the range most affected by BT1886 so I'd have to trust my "profiled" d2. Still, I'm going to give it another go as soon as I catch up on all of last seasons finales.
Quote:
and let's not forget PQ is more than just about calibration... stuff like black levels/contrast ratios, uniformity, viewing angles, motion handling, etc. matter too

True, of course. I'm just making the point that I'm fed up with companies that make the process of calibration way harder than it needs to be. I don't live for the calibration, I calibrate to better enjoy actual programming ... the less time I spend calibrating or de-quirking a display, the more time I have for watching. It's simple, really. smile.gif
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post #22 of 22 Old 08-11-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

To save some time:

Me: Does it have a BT.1886 "preset?"

You: No, but do we really need BT1886 since no studios are really using it.

Me: Well it is the standard after all . wink.gifbiggrin.gif

--- To be honest, I've actually backed off from using BT1886, 1) for the reason stated above and 2) I'm always exhausted after doing a bt1886 calibration and 3) I'm sure my i1Pro is a bit wibbly-wobbly down in the range most affected by BT1886 so I'd have to trust my "profiled" d2. Still, I'm going to give it another go as soon as I catch up on all of last seasons finales.
True, of course. I'm just making the point that I'm fed up with companies that make the process of calibration way harder than it needs to be. I don't live for the calibration, I calibrate to better enjoy actual programming ... the less time I spend calibrating or de-quirking a display, the more time I have for watching. It's simple, really. smile.gif

all good points; I don't really miss not having BT.1886, but there are times when even 2.2 power gamma looks too dark (depends heavily on the movie/TV show/video game I'm watching/playing)

on a side note, I'd really like to be able to measure near black gamma on my Samsung (1%, 2%, 3%, and 4%), because gamma at 5% and 10% isn't too dark but I get the feeling the steps under 5% could be (just a guess though since I don't have a reference for this 'evaluation')


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