Gamma with normal windows or with APL? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 193 Old 11-07-2013, 12:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

How did we end up with this mess? I guess the old Pioneer Kuros measured better and more linearly as they did because they did not employ ABL and let the power consumption flow freely. When Panasonic and others took over they tried combat the huge power consumptions with new techniques - ABL and possibly others that affect the panel drive which we don't have a name for. What they do however is not only lowering power by varying luminosity. They do it unfortunately in a non-linear way that cases the color shifts and color luminosity shifts at different pattern sizes. I can only see that as a bug. How the heck can they let that crap out of the lab...?
My conclusions here may be wrong. Please enlighten me if that is so!

+1, TV's Low Power Consumption Labels marathon and LifeStyle TV Slim Fashion destroyed the picture quality, so sad frown.gif

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 193 Old 11-07-2013, 05:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
JimP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

HDTVtest was the review I saw ABL mentioned in.

Looks like it's a pain to calibrate.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
JimP is online now  
post #93 of 193 Old 11-07-2013, 03:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post


How did we end up with this mess? I guess the old Pioneer Kuros measured better and more linearly as they did because they did not employ ABL and let the power consumption flow freely. When Panasonic and others took over they tried combat the huge power consumptions with new techniques - ABL and possibly others that affect the panel drive which we don't have a name for. What they do however is not only lowering power by varying luminosity. They do it unfortunately in a non-linear way that cases the color shifts and color luminosity shifts at different pattern sizes. I can only see that as a bug. How the heck can they let that crap out of the lab...?
My conclusions here may be wrong. Please enlighten me if that is so!

Let's hope that OLED is indeed better in this regard.

Kuro TVs had and have as much ABL as any plasma. That has nothing to do with anything. As far as I know, all those great calibrations of Kuro TVs were done with standard window patterns covering 10%-12$ of the screen area with black backgrounds. And that's the case for most plasma TVs. There has never been a plasma TV produced without ABL because the amount of heat generated would be HUGE ---- AND ---- the power supplies would have to be able to deliver more than double the amount of power in any given plasma TV model in order to NOT have ABL. And that all assumes the conductors carrying voltage/current to the plasma panel are of sufficient gauge to not current-limit the voltage supplied to individual pixels (which would also cause ABL).

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #94 of 193 Old 11-07-2013, 11:32 PM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Thanks for the clarification on ABL and Kuros!

Still, the issues with non-linear color saturation response with regard to intensity is a severe problem. At least with my european VT30 version. Saturation tracking is nowhere nere where its should be, and with different intensities the results vary. This is with the ISF settings on my VT30. I tried calibrating to a 75%/75% color pattern and ended up with too much oversaturated colors at the edges. The funny thing is that with the Cinema setting there is no CMS, but colors seems really great anyway. Will do a thorough test on saturation tracking on that setting as I speak... Sad thing about that setting is that gray scale is not as accurate as I can get it in ISF. But whatever works best all in all will be my choice...

Does anybody know of a firmware setting that may help get a more linear response out to the ISF settings?
Barsk is offline  
post #95 of 193 Old 11-08-2013, 08:16 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

Thanks for the clarification on ABL and Kuros!

Still, the issues with non-linear color saturation response with regard to intensity is a severe problem. At least with my european VT30 version. Saturation tracking is nowhere nere where its should be, and with different intensities the results vary. This is with the ISF settings on my VT30. I tried calibrating to a 75%/75% color pattern and ended up with too much oversaturated colors at the edges. The funny thing is that with the Cinema setting there is no CMS, but colors seems really great anyway. Will do a thorough test on saturation tracking on that setting as I speak... Sad thing about that setting is that gray scale is not as accurate as I can get it in ISF. But whatever works best all in all will be my choice...

Does anybody know of a firmware setting that may help get a more linear response out to the ISF settings?

http://www.avforums.com/threads/panasonic-vt30-calibration-settings-thread.1463408/page-7

Post #193

Some good advice there...

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #96 of 193 Old 11-08-2013, 09:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

Does anybody know of a firmware setting that may help get a more linear response out to the ISF settings?

There is an optional f/w for calibrators (only manual install available) that addresses things in regards to what you have posted. However, it was only released for North American 30 Series models.

And the 9G Kuro Monitor's ABL performance is different (for the better) than the other Kuro TV Models and any Plasma since. Regulations were also different back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

http://www.avforums.com/threads/panasonic-vt30-calibration-settings-thread.1463408/page-7

Post #193

Some good advice there...

Steve (Bumtious) also uses ControlCAL G/VT30 Edition v2 on the Panasonics, which allows you to calibrate without the menus up, and more.

.

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

Calibration Reports - Pioneer

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is offline  
post #97 of 193 Old 11-08-2013, 01:16 PM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Steve (Bumtious) also uses ControlCAL G/VT30 Edition v2 on the Panasonics, which allows you to calibrate without the menus up, and more.

.

+1

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #98 of 193 Old 11-08-2013, 01:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post


And the 9G Kuro Monitor's ABL performance is different (for the better) than the other Kuro TV Models and any Plasma since.

.

Different in what way? When they were setup for low 30s fL for a (10% area) window pattern, they still measured below 20 fL for full-screen 100% white.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #99 of 193 Old 11-09-2013, 02:10 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

http://www.avforums.com/threads/panasonic-vt30-calibration-settings-thread.1463408/page-7

Post #193

Some good advice there...
I will look into that thread, thanks!

About the CMS issues with my european VT30. I have found that the non-linear response is actually reversed when using 10% APL patterns instead of using ones with black background. Instead of the lower saturation targets being undersaturated they become oversaturated. This is much more inline with the problems I see after calibration with 10% patterns. Colors in real-life images are oversaturated. Decreasing saturation clearly improves the image. Seems picking the right size APL pattern and calibrating CMS at lower saturations should possibly bring me closer to a good compromise. Need to find out what pattern to use though. I guess trying different ones and see which one comes closes to cinema or THX settings is the one to use in mys ISF setting.

Btw, the problems with saturation shifting with amplitude that I mentioned earlier was not true. Tried that with the GCD disk and tracking was Ok. Shifting is due to which patterns are used. Clearly ABL is playing in here.

Calibrating this beast seems is like shooting a moving target. It is NOT as easy as Doug suggested. Grayscale seemed Ok with 10% pattern, but gamma becomes way to contrasty. Tried in 4% apl and things gets much better. The standard uncalibrated gamma settings still seems brighter and more pleasing to the eye though. Not sure though.

It might be the case that the alternative f/w that you have in the US is actually solving the issues I have - but there is no alternative f/w for us here. Too bad.
Barsk is offline  
post #100 of 193 Old 11-09-2013, 03:08 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Have a look into that thread I linked since it contains a lot of answers to the issues you're experiencing.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #101 of 193 Old 11-10-2013, 02:44 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I have to confess I was partly wrong in my assessments above. And an apology to Doug!

I did six different full measurments with grayscale, primaries/secondaries and full saturation sweeps with different pattern types and sizes, i.e 4% APL, 10% APL and standard 10% windows and in fact grayscale did NOT change as much as I previously thought. CMS readings with saturation sweeps pretty much was identical over all these patterns. Where I got the impression that saturation non-linearity switched from undersaturated to oversaturated I don't know. I might have been a bug in HCFR 3.0.5.2 that I was using. The latest version 3.1.0.0 has fixed some bugs in that regard.

Gamma did not change too much either with these patterns. I switched to standard display gamma instead of the Bt.1866 gamma option I was using and that evened out any differences considerably.

I ended up calibrating CMS with a 75% A/75% S pattern to find a good compromise. The TV is still non-linear in regard to saturation levels 25% - 100%. The saturation and luminosity shifts considerably here. 75 A/ 75 S seems a good spot to use for a compromise for my VT30. These errors are the main pitfalls of this set, but I think I found a working compromise here.

Will look into the mentioned thread for more info though. Thanks.
Barsk is offline  
post #102 of 193 Old 11-10-2013, 05:06 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

The TV is still non-linear in regard to saturation levels 25% - 100%. The saturation and luminosity shifts considerably here. 75 A/ 75 S seems a good spot to use for a compromise for my VT30. These errors are the main pitfalls of this set, but I think I found a working compromise here.

Will look into the mentioned thread for more info though. Thanks.

Agree with you in respect of the saturation and luminosity shifts. I compromised by correcting the lum/sat on a 60s pattern which yielded improvements across the saturation ranges.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #103 of 193 Old 11-10-2013, 07:04 AM
Newbie
 
womanpiaola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

i agree with you, you should ask your buddy Silly Sally,I'am pretty sure he will give you the correct answer on which pattern is correct

qhWv

womanpiaola is offline  
post #104 of 193 Old 11-11-2013, 02:17 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Agree with you in respect of the saturation and luminosity shifts. I compromised by correcting the lum/sat on a 60s pattern which yielded improvements across the saturation ranges.

I see a post from you on the vt30's thread that you calibrated color with a 75A/100S pattern back in 2012. Now it seems you use a 60S-pattern. Where did you get that pattern and why did you settle on that specific pattern?

What I found with my own compromise, a 75/75 pattern from the GCD disk was that color still was off on real life video. Tried on a whim to decrease lightness on green and that did it. At least partly. That tells me I have not found the best compromise pattern. I would really like to find a "middle point" of all these non-linearities and calibrate there, knowing that color will always be off at the extremes, but at least accurate in the middle range.
Trial and error I guess...
Barsk is offline  
post #105 of 193 Old 11-11-2013, 02:29 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

I see a post from you on the vt30's thread that you calibrated color with a 75A/100S pattern back in 2012. Now it seems you use a 60S-pattern. Where did you get that pattern and why did you settle on that specific pattern?

What I found with my own compromise, a 75/75 pattern from the GCD disk was that color still was off on real life video. Tried on a whim to decrease lightness on green and that did it. At least partly. That tells me I have not found the best compromise pattern. I would really like to find a "middle point" of all these non-linearities and calibrate there, knowing that color will always be off at the extremes, but at least accurate in the middle range.
Trial and error I guess...

Well as a newbie to this type of thing, the VT30 has provided me with an excellent education in calibration with much trial and error on this set to get it looking good, and I literally have tried everything.
The patterns I use are custom made and are available on my disk that I authored for use with Calman 5.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #106 of 193 Old 11-11-2013, 11:21 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Zoyd tipped me about his CC6 mode that is available in both the MCD and GCD disks. It is supported in latest HCFR as a special color space. Haven't tried it yet but it is supposed to cover patterns of low saturations amongst others.
Barsk is offline  
post #107 of 193 Old 11-11-2013, 11:59 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

Zoyd tipped me about his CC6 mode that is available in both the MCD and GCD disks. It is supported in latest HCFR as a special color space. Haven't tried it yet but it is supposed to cover patterns of low saturations amongst others.

You mean colour checker right? Yes, calman has this too, in fact 24 colours. My disk covers these.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #108 of 193 Old 11-11-2013, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,434
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

You mean colour checker right? Yes, calman has this too, in fact 24 colours. My disk covers these.

No, he means that HCFR has a mode in which 6 of the color checker patterns are used as pseudo-primaries/secondaries. So you can calibrate to them like you do to 75%S patterns or 100%S patterns.
zoyd is offline  
post #109 of 193 Old 11-11-2013, 12:51 PM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

No, he means that HCFR has a mode in which 6 of the color checker patterns are used as pseudo-primaries/secondaries. So you can calibrate to them like you do to 75%S patterns or 100%S patterns.

Gotcha.
You can of course perform exactly the same task in Calman,
Nice touch nevertheless.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #110 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 01:12 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
On the subject of the "right" pattern for calibrating CMS on the VT30 I followed Zoyd's recomendation to use 4% APL patterns from the Mascior's disk and to my surprise I found that with these patterns the saturation tracking was mostly flawless. Also luma levels was fairly even across saturation levels 25%, 50%, 75%. At 100% luma still drops a bit.
This was NOT the case with 10% windows where the lower sat colors was showing as undersaturated and luma levels fluctuated a great deal. So with 4% APL the I only needed minor adjustments to saturation and lightness and then I was done!

Also grayscale was easier to calibrate with the 4% APL. I found myself removing a lot of the 10pt adjustments I had done with the 10% windows patterns. It just became flat without effort. HCFR gave me "Awesome calibration" in both grayscale, and primaries/secondaries calbrations, and "Very nice" in the saturation tracking departments. No problems getting a flat gamma either.

I did not have time to also check with the CC6 mode, but I would expect it to fall in line nicely too.
Did only some reference video checks (too sleepy), but at least Stargate Atlantis looked great, which it did'nt before. Will have to investigate further before I can decide if I am "done" yet... smile.gif
Barsk is offline  
post #111 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 03:54 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

On the subject of the "right" pattern for calibrating CMS on the VT30 I followed Zoyd's recomendation to use 4% APL patterns from the Mascior's disk and to my surprise I found that with these patterns the saturation tracking was mostly flawless. Also luma levels was fairly even across saturation levels 25%, 50%, 75%. At 100% luma still drops a bit.
This was NOT the case with 10% windows where the lower sat colors was showing as undersaturated and luma levels fluctuated a great deal. So with 4% APL the I only needed minor adjustments to saturation and lightness and then I was done!

Also grayscale was easier to calibrate with the 4% APL. I found myself removing a lot of the 10pt adjustments I had done with the 10% windows patterns. It just became flat without effort. HCFR gave me "Awesome calibration" in both grayscale, and primaries/secondaries calbrations, and "Very nice" in the saturation tracking departments. No problems getting a flat gamma either.

I did not have time to also check with the CC6 mode, but I would expect it to fall in line nicely too.
Did only some reference video checks (too sleepy), but at least Stargate Atlantis looked great, which it did'nt before. Will have to investigate further before I can decide if I am "done" yet... smile.gif

Couple of points. Using patterns that 'fit' your graphs do not necessarily mean they're accurate for your set.
If I use 1% windows I get a completely different calibration! likewise if I use 7.5% windows, so on and so on. Which are correct?
Grayscale will differ with different pattern types, additionally trying to calibrate gamma on this set to a flat line In fact most plasmas I believe) Is like chasing a moving target - what does achieving a flat line gamma mean in real terms?
Did you read bumtious recommendations in the thread I linked? As I said some very helpful advice there which shouldn't be overlooked IMHO.
Anyways the most important thing here is that if you're happy with you're calibration then you're done!

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #112 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 11:36 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Couple of points. Using patterns that 'fit' your graphs do not necessarily mean they're accurate for your set.
If I use 1% windows I get a completely different calibration! likewise if I use 7.5% windows, so on and so on. Which are correct?
I know all of that, i.e learnt during the last two weeks...

Regarding the way that the patterns fitted the default settings in my TV I believe that I am somewhat close to the methods that the Panasonic engineers have used when they made the generic calibration for all the VT30s. If I am using a pattern or methodology that makes me use extreme settings to calibrate a display then for me it is a signal that I am on the wrong track. Most often in the past these attempts has been futile with banding and other ill effects.

I didn't claim that my calibration is perfect. I am still evaluating. For grayscale it seems pretty much perfect. For color. Hmm. Still off with orange-tinted faces... It may be that I will never hit the target here. I am beginning to feel this TV is flawed. I have never gotten proper colors off this beast regardless of patterns...
My LG LCD with IPS panel in the upper room has so much cleaner colors and great PQ even without calibration that it is rediculous to compare. And the LG is 1/3 of the price of the panny... Of course LCD has other problems that the plasma has not, but still. In the color department it shines!

Well, haven't given up yet on the plasma. Will look into that thread you mentioned to see if I can find anything. Remember though that the US and the european f/w differs so all may not apply.
Barsk is offline  
post #113 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 12:23 PM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

I know all of that, i.e learnt during the last two weeks...

Regarding the way that the patterns fitted the default settings in my TV I believe that I am somewhat close to the methods that the Panasonic engineers have used when they made the generic calibration for all the VT30s. If I am using a pattern or methodology that makes me use extreme settings to calibrate a display then for me it is a signal that I am on the wrong track. Most often in the past these attempts has been futile with banding and other ill effects.

I didn't claim that my calibration is perfect. I am still evaluating. For grayscale it seems pretty much perfect. For color. Hmm. Still off with orange-tinted faces... It may be that I will never hit the target here. I am beginning to feel this TV is flawed. I have never gotten proper colors off this beast regardless of patterns...
My LG LCD with IPS panel in the upper room has so much cleaner colors and great PQ even without calibration that it is rediculous to compare. And the LG is 1/3 of the price of the panny... Of course LCD has other problems that the plasma has not, but still. In the color department it shines!

Well, haven't given up yet on the plasma. Will look into that thread you mentioned to see if I can find anything. Remember though that the US and the european f/w differs so all may not apply.

You have a euro set right?
Oh yes, the thing with this set is that you think you have everything right until you realise it's not! As I said read that post by bumtious - the advice given is the valuable yet I have seen on this particular display.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #114 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 02:05 PM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

You have a euro set right?
Oh yes, the thing with this set is that you think you have everything right until you realise it's not! As I said read that post by bumtious - the advice given is the valuable yet I have seen on this particular display.
A euro set yes.
Rechecked on my Apple TV with Netflix and it does look quite nice so far actually. On the DVB-T input however it looks plain bad with orange faces. Yes I know the TV broadcasts are extremely off at times. But the channels I check is normally of high quality. Strange it differs that much. Still evaluating though... Have some reference stuff to look through on BD.
Barsk is offline  
post #115 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 02:27 PM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

A euro set yes.
Rechecked on my Apple TV with Netflix and it does look quite nice so far actually. On the DVB-T input however it looks plain bad with orange faces. Yes I know the TV broadcasts are extremely off at times. But the channels I check is normally of high quality. Strange it differs that much. Still evaluating though... Have some reference stuff to look through on BD.

On mine, blu ray is stunning - freesat HD though has a clear pinkish hue to it which I need to look at when I have some time.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #116 of 193 Old 11-12-2013, 11:37 PM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Thinking of calibrating REC 601 or PAL standard and using that on DVB-T input only. I guess it is better to have slightly undersaturated on the HD channels than have overblown colors on SD channels. In theory the differene is minor, but with this set it might be worthwile.
Barsk is offline  
post #117 of 193 Old 11-13-2013, 07:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Do remember that virtually all SD material today is actually mastered in Rec709, and is not colour-space converted when the image is changed from HD (or 2K, etc) to SD.

I would actually recommend for home cinema calibration Rec709 is used for all formats.

I say this as I have owned my own own post-production company in Soho, and today the majority of our customers are the professional post facilities and broadcasters.

Steve
anta1974 likes this.

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #118 of 193 Old 11-13-2013, 07:45 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

On the subject of the "right" pattern for calibrating CMS on the VT30 I followed Zoyd's recomendation to use 4% APL patterns from the Mascior's disk and to my surprise I found that with these patterns the saturation tracking was mostly flawless. Also luma levels was fairly even across saturation levels 25%, 50%, 75%. At 100% luma still drops a bit.
This was NOT the case with 10% windows where the lower sat colors was showing as undersaturated and luma levels fluctuated a great deal. So with 4% APL the I only needed minor adjustments to saturation and lightness and then I was done!

Also grayscale was easier to calibrate with the 4% APL. I found myself removing a lot of the 10pt adjustments I had done with the 10% windows patterns. It just became flat without effort. HCFR gave me "Awesome calibration" in both grayscale, and primaries/secondaries calbrations, and "Very nice" in the saturation tracking departments. No problems getting a flat gamma either.

I did not have time to also check with the CC6 mode, but I would expect it to fall in line nicely too.
Did only some reference video checks (too sleepy), but at least Stargate Atlantis looked great, which it did'nt before. Will have to investigate further before I can decide if I am "done" yet... smile.gif

As my curiosity is starting to get the better of me again im going to have to have a go at using 1% APL's this weekend and do a visual comparison to the 10% windows calibration.
Again, I will not be touching any 10pt gamma controls as there appears to be absolutely no point.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #119 of 193 Old 11-14-2013, 02:15 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Do remember that virtually all SD material today is actually mastered in Rec709, and is not colour-space converted when the image is changed from HD (or 2K, etc) to SD.

I would actually recommend for home cinema calibration Rec709 is used for all formats.

I say this as I have owned my own own post-production company in Soho, and today the majority of our customers are the professional post facilities and broadcasters.

Steve
Thanks Steve!

Good to hear that clarification from a Pro! Rec 709 it is then!
Barsk is offline  
post #120 of 193 Old 11-14-2013, 02:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Do remember that virtually all SD material today is actually mastered in Rec709, and is not colour-space converted when the image is changed from HD (or 2K, etc) to SD.

I would actually recommend for home cinema calibration Rec709 is used for all formats.

I say this as I have owned my own own post-production company in Soho, and today the majority of our customers are the professional post facilities and broadcasters.

Steve
Thanks Steve!

Good to hear that clarification from a Pro! Rec 709 it is then!

BTW, the list of Post-Production Studios that are using LightSpace is huge, take a look here.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

Tags
Panasonic Tc P65vt60 65 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn64d7000 64 Inch 1080p 600 Hz 3d Plasma Hdtv Black
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off