Gamma with normal windows or with APL? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 193 Old 11-26-2013, 07:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 492
There is no answer imo and there lies the problem, I would love for someone to tell me that the absolute best pattern size is 5% apl for instance. But factor in software, the meter and the skills of the calibrator and you are going to have variance. That doesnt even take into account the variance between plasma models etc The final problem is the end result is subjective because the the only method we have to evaluate the calibration is the charts themselves and that does not take into account human perception. What you consider a pleasing gamma may look artificial to me and vice versa.

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 193 Old 11-26-2013, 10:01 AM
Member
 
Miguelronda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Yes yes there is an answer: NO touching gamma plasma during calibration
Miguelronda is offline  
post #183 of 193 Old 11-26-2013, 10:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,604
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguelronda View Post

Yes yes there is an answer: NO touching gamma plasma during calibration

Good luck with that. wink.gif

If one can say that the EBU has tolerances as suggested on this graph than perhaps "ballpark" is okay.

ConnecTEDDD likes this.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is online now  
post #184 of 193 Old 11-26-2013, 12:19 PM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Good luck with that. wink.gif

If one can say that the EBU has tolerances as suggested on this graph than perhaps "ballpark" is okay.


Good luck with that too!
Of course, it would help if there were an accurate way of measuring a plasma displays gamma so it actually means something to the user......

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #185 of 193 Old 11-26-2013, 12:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,604
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Good luck with that too!
Of course, it would help if there were an accurate way of measuring a plasma displays gamma so it actually means something to the user......

smile.gif With PDP and OLED, "ballpark" is going to be the best one can do. I'm happy with the content results I've seen on both technologies.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is online now  
post #186 of 193 Old 11-26-2013, 12:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
I think the best thing a DIY calibrator can do is learn their displays inside and out by trying various reasonable approaches and finding something that looks right most of the time. Be careful with adjusting gamma (beyond presets), since you don't want ABL to mask the display's real gamma response (but don't use tiny patterns that factor out ABL altogether, since that's not indicative of typical content either).
PlasmaPZ80U is online now  
post #187 of 193 Old 11-27-2013, 09:33 AM
Senior Member
 
ndaa75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caister on Sea, UK
Posts: 493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I think the best thing a DIY calibrator can do is learn their displays inside and out by trying various reasonable approaches and finding something that looks right most of the time. Be careful with adjusting gamma (beyond presets), since you don't want ABL to mask the display's real gamma response (but don't use tiny patterns that factor out ABL altogether, since that's not indicative of typical content either).

.....and here lies the problem! ABL messes with your gamma so actually the numbers mean little if anything.
Furthermore, running a gamma run with very small tiny windows will actually show your displays native response (it does on mine, not sure for any other display), for example my VT30 will show a virtually flat line 2.2 gamma using 1% windows at the displays 2.2 gamma setting, same for 2.4 setting etc, so I could always use this method to check my target setting, but I don't even bother trying to 'correct' it if calibrating with larger windows, 10% eg, given the ABL effects.

Benq W1080ST Projector, Panasonic TXP55VT30 plasma, Yamaha RXA3020 AVR, Denon DVD-2500BT, Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1, i1 Pro spectro, i1 Display Pro, Calman 5 Enthusiast, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii

Calibration Management Disc
ndaa75 is offline  
post #188 of 193 Old 11-27-2013, 01:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

.....and here lies the problem! ABL messes with your gamma so actually the numbers mean little if anything.
Furthermore, running a gamma run with very small tiny windows will actually show your displays native response (it does on mine, not sure for any other display), for example my VT30 will show a virtually flat line 2.2 gamma using 1% windows at the displays 2.2 gamma setting, same for 2.4 setting etc, so I could always use this method to check my target setting, but I don't even bother trying to 'correct' it if calibrating with larger windows, 10% eg, given the ABL effects.

fixed APL patterns show on-screen gamma, though which fixed APL value that is will still affect the results
PlasmaPZ80U is online now  
post #189 of 193 Old 12-26-2013, 04:05 AM
 
pg_ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

(but don't use tiny patterns that factor out ABL altogether, since that's not indicative of typical content either).

or you can just disable/minimize ABL so it doesnt affect gamma that much wink.gif
i have done it on my Kuro.
for the power restricted Panasonics after 2009 i dont know if its possible

but i still calibrate with the windows patterns
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
pg_ice is offline  
post #190 of 193 Old 12-26-2013, 10:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

or you can just disable/minimize ABL so it doesnt affect gamma that much wink.gif
i have done it on my Kuro.
for the power restricted Panasonics after 2009 i dont know if its possible

but i still calibrate with the windows patterns

I use Ted's 11% standard windows with great results.
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
PlasmaPZ80U is online now  
post #191 of 193 Old 12-26-2013, 10:32 AM
 
pg_ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I use Ted's 11% standard windows with great results.

ok great
just one question
whats the highest brightness that you can get for the whites on a ansi checkerboard with the S60 ?

as for the color luminance i think the APL patterns is more correct for real world content than the window patterns.
it differ +3 with the color control from 100% color windows to the large APL patterns.
pg_ice is offline  
post #192 of 193 Old 12-26-2013, 11:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

ok great
just one question
whats the highest brightness that you can get for the whites on a ansi checkerboard with the S60 ?

as for the color luminance i think the APL patterns is more correct for real world content than the window patterns.
it differ +3 with the color control from 100% color windows to the large APL patterns.

with 11% standard windows, the S60 maxes out at 50 fL (almost exactly 50)

this is with contrast 100 and panel brightness mid (high is no brighter on my S60, only much noisier)
PlasmaPZ80U is online now  
post #193 of 193 Old 12-26-2013, 11:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 197
not sure about ANSI checkerboard but I think in the low to mid 30s (fL)
PlasmaPZ80U is online now  
Reply Display Calibration

Tags
Panasonic Tc P65vt60 65 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn64d7000 64 Inch 1080p 600 Hz 3d Plasma Hdtv Black
Gear in this thread - Pn64d7000 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off