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post #31 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I am sure that a color cube LUT calibrations with a thousands of corrections is better, and when a person buys a high end projector, I get it that they want it as good as money can make it.. However for the average consumer grade TV < dE 3 is good, if you can get ti better great, if you have to spend $2000 to get it better, and you have it, go for it, but that is not withing the reach of the majority of folks here on this forum. Since the OP was asking about 2 different LUT type products I should not have mentioned manual calibration since that was not what he was asking about and I have never used the products he was asking about.

Why to spend 2.000$?

You need to buy only eeColor (680$) + to hire a PRO to perform a 17-Point Cube with High-End Meters.

eeColor for it's price/features is the best hardware deal of the last years in calibration market!

For only 680$ you get 65-Point Cube Interpollated LUTs from 17-Point Cube - 4913 Measured Color Points.

The Majority of the Guys here have spend 1.500$ or more for a Lumagen with 5-Point Cube - 125 Color Points only.

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post #32 of 50 Old 08-29-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Now tell me that you don't see the Red 1.1dE or the Cyan 0.9dE.....

Please users that found my original post very extreme to comment about the difference you see of Green 2.1 dE or Red 1.4dE also, who are still believing what 3.0 dE is the limit of Human Perception....

Case Closed.... 1.0 - 3.0 dE Difference is visible but it has to do with color you are comparing, some low dE differencies can be more or less noticed.

Also when you are watching a movie with a static camera where 2 actors are talking....this is not a moving resolution image...

Moving resolution means when a car is passing by , or when the camera or objects are moving fast..

Imagine that LED/LCD have only motion resolution of 300-400 lines...

So we can't talk of what is happening with motion resolution color difference since the tests of color difference and the dE formulas are coming from static color comparisons.

First, let me say that is a cool way to more easily see these color errors and to me, the green error stood out more than the others. If CalMAN 5 could make the color comparator work like this, that would be quite helpful. On the other hand, without the reference present it would be hard to know these errors were present (unless you had this display next to a reference one the way CNET tests their TVs). In other words, unless colors are quite off, even a picky viewer would have a hard time knowing something was off with real program material unless they had a reference present.
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Maybe the issue here is the context of my original statement and the info I left out that is assumed everyone understood.
A dE of 3 or less in moving video content without direct comparison is beyond visual perception. Yes we can see the difference in 2 triplets in a gif but will you be able to watch a movie and say "HEY the sky is off by a dE of 2.1 .. when the sky can be a billion different triplets and you are not there looking at the sky and the output of the projector at the same time... I am sure that a color cube LUT calibrations with a thousands of corrections is better, and when a person buys a high end projector, I get it that they want it as good as money can make it.. However for the average consumer grade TV < dE 3 is good, if you can get ti better great, if you have to spend $2000 to get it better, and you have it, go for it, but that is not withing the reach of the majority of folks here on this forum. Since the OP was asking about 2 different LUT type products I should not have mentioned manual calibration since that was not what he was asking about and I have never used the products he was asking about.

This is a very valid point since spending hundreds or thousands on a device to make things only mildly better is not something most would do unless they had a very high end display and/or a very high budget. I would personally rather spend the money on a better/larger display or better audio equipment.
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

while I get what you're trying to say, it's still doesn't make sense, because none of us (or not many) have been at the original scene on set. Second, it's not about how to "sky looked like on set", it's about how it got graded to look like in post... the director's or colorist's intent.

And that's what you want to get as close as possible to with accurate calibration.

- M

Yes, you want to get as close as possible but within a reasonable tolerance makes more sense than absolute perfection, given the high cost of 3D LUT calibration. Also, if you can't tell colors are off without viewing your display side by side with a reference display, does the difference truly matter to most people (even on this forum)?
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post #33 of 50 Old 08-29-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Yes, you want to get as close as possible but within a reasonable tolerance makes more sense than absolute perfection, given the high cost of 3D LUT calibration. Also, if you can't tell colors are off without viewing your display side by side with a reference display, does the difference truly matter to most people (even on this forum)?

1) 3D LUT setup doesn't cost much. Considering you'll be watching TV & Movies for the rest of your lives, it's peanuts.

Considering you can opt to buy less expensive models from a certain series, and get the same pic with a 3D LUT than the more expensive sets in the series, you can save some money. E.g. you only need to buy a TV that shares the same basic hw characteristics, u don't need all the other fancy crap the more expensive sets in the series have, as most likely you won't use them (I don't) and if it is image related settings, you turn them off anyways. To me, it's all about THE IMAGE. The 3D LUT takes care of everything.

So, IMO, when you decide to spend money, spend it wisely on something that works. You get what you pay for.

You can re-use the 3D LUT stuff with all you future TV's. Unless you move to 4K, then you need a 4K capable box.


2) The catch 22 is that you are not in the DI suite with the colorist, so u don't know how much ur TV set is off and that's why u need to calibrate for a perfect match or as close as u can get.

- M

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post #34 of 50 Old 08-29-2013, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Thanks for the links.

Gotta love the manufacturer claims ... and then there is reality.

regards

Can you explain why LED projectors drift more frequently than lamp based projectors. I would think with the slight change in brightness over thousands of hours,the colors would not drift as much
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post #35 of 50 Old 08-30-2013, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

1) 3D LUT setup doesn't cost much. Considering you'll be watching TV & Movies for the rest of your lives, it's peanuts.

Considering you can opt to buy less expensive models from a certain series, and get the same pic with a 3D LUT than the more expensive sets in the series, you can save some money. E.g. you only need to buy a TV that shares the same basic hw characteristics, u don't need all the other fancy crap the more expensive sets in the series have, as most likely you won't use them (I don't) and if it is image related settings, you turn them off anyways. To me, it's all about THE IMAGE. The 3D LUT takes care of everything.

So, IMO, when you decide to spend money, spend it wisely on something that works. You get what you pay for.

You can re-use the 3D LUT stuff with all you future TV's. Unless you move to 4K, then you need a 4K capable box.


2) The catch 22 is that you are not in the DI suite with the colorist, so u don't know how much ur TV set is off and that's why u need to calibrate for a perfect match or as close as u can get.

- M

You say it doesn't cost much, but could you elaborate? For example, I currently have CalMAN 5 HT (Enthusiast) and the i1Pro(1) spectro and C6 colorimeter. What would be the minimum that I'd need to spend in hardware/software costs for a 3D LUT setup?

Odds are it's pushing at least $1,000, which is a lot for going from dE < 3.0 to dE < 1.0.
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post #36 of 50 Old 08-30-2013, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

You say it doesn't cost much, but could you elaborate?

obviously, financials are always relative, but in the long term, it is kinda cheap... like I said, u're gonna be watching TV for the rest of your life, and now that you know how to do calibrate, u're always gonna calibrate ur TV... wink.gif

> eeColor is US$680.00 - supported by LS & CM, I'm not sure about Chromapure

> I recommend LS, and that will be the main purchase, but you can use this software forever - AND IT DOES WORK CONSISTENTLY, ALWAYS HAS AND DELIVERS BEST RESULTS - they just released a newer, cheaper HT versions, check their website

> u got the meters already, although u need an i1D3 OEM for LS, the Retail version does not work, I'm not sure if the C6 is a modified OEM or Retail i1D3 - maybe it works with LS (?)

so let's say you go all in and get the best of the best (you don't need that, but just as an example):

> LS full version (too much for what you need but as an exampe): US$2.2K (don't know exact price but around that)
> eeColor: US$680.00 - offers 65^3 LUT's for 1080p signal
> i1D3 OEM: US$200.00 - in case your C6 does not work with LS

> total: roughly 3K - with the cheaper LS version you're at 1K +.

consider these costs against that you're watching TV every day and you can use them in the future on all your displays, the only thing you'll need to switch in the future is to buy a 4K capable LUT box - once 4K arrives at your home (and you can sell you eeColor and get money back) - and possibly upgrade meters (optional)

And you can save money on future TV model purchases etc as I wrote above... in the long run (over the years) it's peanuts, and it IMO only makes sense to spend money on things that WORK and deliver results

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post #37 of 50 Old 08-30-2013, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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HCL is only $700 US, eeColor $650, and D3 $250 which is $1600. People buy the mini3D for $1500 and the other models for $2000+. This is not counting the software and meters.
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post #38 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 02:31 PM
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like I said earlier, $1K+ is a lot for incremental gains... if you have a display that truly needs it (errors greater than five at least at some measured points or poor gamma response after using display controls), then it's another story

here's an analogy that might help... if I have a car that can run on both regular and premium gasoline and makes 2.5% more horsepower with premium (but premium costs 10% more than regular to fill the tank), is it worth it?

to me, the answer is an obvious no, since I can feel my wallet getting 10% lighter but I can't feel 2.5% more horsepower under real driving conditions
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post #39 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

HCL is only $700 US, eeColor $650, and D3 $250 which is $1600. People buy the mini3D for $1500 and the other models for $2000+. This is not counting the software and meters.

what's HCL?
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post #40 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

like I said earlier, $1K+ is a lot for incremental gains... if you have a display that truly needs it (errors greater than five at least at some measured points or poor gamma response after using display controls), then it's another story

here's an analogy that might help... if I have a car that can run on both regular and premium gasoline and makes 2.5% more horsepower with premium (but premium costs 10% more than regular to fill the tank), is it worth it?

to me, the answer is an obviously no, since I can feel my wallet getting 10% lighter but I can't feel 2.5% more horsepower under real driving conditions

I agree with you, however the OP has a projector that listed for $16,000, whats another $2k since he got it for 80% off list? For the every day Joe, LUT does not make monetary sense yet. Once the Mid level displays come with a built in LUT we can upload a 4000+ point calibration into, it will be a no brainer. Maybe the eebox will be functional for many years and maybe technology will change.. I didn't consider that fact when I dropped $800+ on a HiFi Beta Max back in the 90s.. or the guy that bought this setup.. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1487715/is-this-equipment-outdated/0_100
It's all about disposable income..
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post #41 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post


I agree with you, however the OP has a projector that listed for $16,000, whats another $2k since he got it for 80% off list? For the every day Joe, LUT does not make monetary sense yet. Once the Mid level displays come with a built in LUT we can upload a 4000+ point calibration into, it will be a no brainer. Maybe the eebox will be functional for many years and maybe technology will change.. I didn't consider that fact when I dropped $800+ on a HiFi Beta Max back in the day.. or the guy that bought this setup.. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1487715/is-this-equipment-outdated/0_100
It's all about disposable income..
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post #42 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post


I agree with you, however the OP has a projector that listed for $16,000, whats another $2k since he got it for 80% off list? For the every day Joe, LUT does not make monetary sense yet. Once the Mid level displays come with a built in LUT we can upload a 4000+ point calibration into, it will be a no brainer. Maybe the eebox will be functional for many years and maybe technology will change.. I didn't consider that fact when I dropped $800+ on a HiFi Beta Max back in the 90s.. or the guy that bought this setup.. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1487715/is-this-equipment-outdated/0_100
It's all about disposable income..

kinda like with 4K or OLED (or both together for that matter)
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post #43 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

HCL is only $700 US, eeColor $650, and D3 $250 which is $1600. People buy the mini3D for $1500 and the other models for $2000+. This is not counting the software and meters.

what's HCL?

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post #44 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

The color drift in LED projectors is far greater and faster than on a typical UHP DLP unit. The lamp life might be 20000 hours, but it falls out of calibration relatively fast ...

Auto cal works if you have total faith in the measuring device. And the knowledge to recognize when things go wrong.

regards

Another mention of how the colors don 't drift on LED projectors are here: http://www.hometheater.com/content/digital-projection-m-vision-cine-led-dlp-projector

http://hometheaterreview.com/digital-projection-m-vision-cine-led-series-projector-reviewed/
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post #45 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 08:19 PM
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I've documented very significant drift on LG LED backlit flat panels; more than I've seen on plasmas. I know you're talking projectors, but just thought I'd mention this. White balance lost green.

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post #46 of 50 Old 08-31-2013, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I've documented very significant drift on LG LED backlit flat panels; more than I've seen on plasmas. I know you're talking projectors, but just thought I'd mention this. White balance lost green.

I really wanted to know why the OP said it, but he didn't point me in a direction to find out. I have my own calibrating gear that I can document how it has changes also. Its just everywhere how it doesn't drift as much. It could be that these are very high end projectors or that no one had time to actually measure the drift.
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post #47 of 50 Old 09-01-2013, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I've documented very significant drift on LG LED backlit flat panels; more than I've seen on plasmas. I know you're talking projectors, but just thought I'd mention this. White balance lost green.

Apologies to OP for a non projector query / reference but the characteristics of LED's maybe are now becoming interesting to me and perhaps others.

Early days yet on my Sharp Edge Lit LED but it has been much more constant in its output from 100% white across the grayscale range than my previous ccfl backlit LCD.
I changed the 92% out of the box backlight setting to 75% to get a more comfortable Ft L reading.

I'm not familiar with LED technical 'wear' but will reducing its near maximum output as I have done for a different reason help this 'drift' you have witnessed or maybe exaggerate the 'drift' over time?
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post #48 of 50 Old 09-01-2013, 10:42 AM
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Apologies to OP for a non projector query / reference but the characteristics of LED's maybe are now becoming interesting to me and perhaps others.

Early days yet on my Sharp Edge Lit LED but it has been much more constant in its output from 100% white across the grayscale range than my previous ccfl backlit LCD.
I changed the 92% out of the box backlight setting to 75% to get a more comfortable Ft L reading.

I'm not familiar with LED technical 'wear' but will reducing its near maximum output as I have done for a different reason help this 'drift' you have witnessed or maybe exaggerate the 'drift' over time?
Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question.

Here's how the LG 55LHX measured after 2 years of drift:


I have seen similar results from the LG LH90. Both are full array local dimming LED.
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post #49 of 50 Old 09-01-2013, 03:40 PM
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Greetings

Sometimes color LEDs get their color by dipping them into color compounds ... (The word doping has been used). Now if the compounds are organic in nature, then the heat and light from the bulbs can and will start a reaction process ... this might be similar to the LCD projectors using these organic polarizing plates up until about 6 or 7 years ago. The blue color reacted the most with the light from the bulb and the heat ... and degraded the fastest.

I am not a lab so I am not in a position to test this ... nor am I interested in doing so. But this might be a reason for the color shifting of the LED displays or projectors.

And much like how the LCD and Plasma flat panel industries like to tout the 100000 hours to half life ... they never tell you exactly what that image looks like at 100000 hours ... aside from ... "You will get a picture."

Regards
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post #50 of 50 Old 09-01-2013, 04:18 PM
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Thanks Michael and Chad.

I will keep a close eye on any 'drift'.
Hopefully , after reading Michaels educated guess at possible reasons perhaps my reduction of the Edge Lit Leds to 75% will reduce any heat induced deterioration.

Assume this would be difficult to do for a PJ where you are usually searching for more Ft Ls?
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