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post #1 of 50 Old 08-18-2013, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I just bought a Digital Projection M-Vision Cine LED projector, brand new. I am trying to decide if I should get the eeColor to do the auto cal with Calman or calibrate it myself with my i1pro and display LT. I know LED displays don't need to be calibrate for thousands of hours, so I'm thinking a VP might not be necessary.
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post #2 of 50 Old 08-18-2013, 06:30 PM
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Greetings

The color drift in LED projectors is far greater and faster than on a typical UHP DLP unit. The lamp life might be 20000 hours, but it falls out of calibration relatively fast ...

Auto cal works if you have total faith in the measuring device. And the knowledge to recognize when things go wrong.

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post #3 of 50 Old 08-18-2013, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I just bought a Digital Projection M-Vision Cine LED projector, brand new. I am trying to decide if I should get the eeColor to do the auto cal with Calman or calibrate it myself with my i1pro and display LT. I know LED displays don't need to be calibrate for thousands of hours, so I'm thinking a VP might not be necessary.

Even with an eeColor you'll still be best served by manually calibrating the projector to get it close. If you're willing to invest the time to learn how to calibrate, you'll get great results.

Joel Barsotti
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post #4 of 50 Old 08-18-2013, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Even with an eeColor you'll still be best served by manually calibrating the projector to get it close. If you're willing to invest the time to learn how to calibrate, you'll get great results.

Ok, thanks. I also manually calibrate. I just hear good things about auto cals
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post #5 of 50 Old 08-19-2013, 02:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

The color drift in LED projectors is far greater and faster than on a typical UHP DLP unit. The lamp life might be 20000 hours, but it falls out of calibration relatively fast ...

Auto cal works if you have total faith in the measuring device. And the knowledge to recognize when things go wrong.

regards

Thanks, I always hear how you don't need to do calibrations as often. I guess I'm going to have to keep a close eye on eeverything.
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post #6 of 50 Old 08-19-2013, 09:46 AM
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Greetings

I am curious about where your "I always hear how you don't need to do calibrations as often." comes from? Where are you hearing this from? Professionals or just a bunch of other people that don't know but offer up their opinion anyway? smile.gif (Called uninformed opinions - I don't know anything about that subject, but I still have an opinion. ... hmmm value of an uninformed opinion ... = less than nothing.)

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post #7 of 50 Old 08-19-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Basically all over the forum. I never heard once that they drift as much as bulbs.
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post #8 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering, if I calibrate my projector manually, then do an auto calibration, will the auto cal perfect the calibration or not make much difference. Say for instance iI was using the eecolor. I plan on using a spectrometer and colorimeter to manual do my calibrations. I want the best results
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post #9 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 05:34 AM
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There is an outline of pre-calibration workflows here: http://www.lightillusion.com/display_calibration.html
As well as: http://www.lightillusion.com/idiots_guide.html

Should help understand what works, and why.
(Its basically the same for any calibration system, not just LightSpace).

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post #10 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

There is an outline of pre-calibration workflows here: http://www.lightillusion.com/display_calibration.html
As well as: http://www.lightillusion.com/idiots_guide.html

Should help understand what works, and why.
(Its basically the same for any calibration system, not just LightSpace).

Steve

I have done many calibrations before, I was just wondering should I get a video processor to do the auto calibration. Since those calibrate for so many colors.
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post #11 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 11:45 AM
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Why not just calibrated it manually, runs saturation sweeps, luminous sweeps, and color checker. If all errors are under a Delta of 3 (beyond visual perception), why spend the money to make it better when you can't see the difference? On the other hand if it does not track well add the hardware...

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post #12 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Why not just calibrated it manually, runs saturation sweeps, luminous sweeps, and color checker. If all errors are under a Delta of 3 (beyond visual perception), why spend the money to make it better when you can't see the difference? On the other hand if it does not track well add the hardware...

This 'dE below 3 errors are not visible by humans' is a myth, it came out a lot of years before when the displays had poor controls or their controls were broken to correct down to a low dE average a display.

The Correct sentence for me is that: dE below 3 is more difficult to be recognised by average people that are not familiar with color, whose who can't identify from 2 images which has more natural shades/colors, or have no experience of what a reference image it looks like...

Anyone who has Lumagen and CalMAN and some time can check this to his own system doing a single test:

With the same Pre-Calibration Settings:

Perform an AutoCAL using one Lumagen Memory Slot with Cube dE Target of 0.5 and after it's finished, Run a Grayscale + Saturation + Color Checker Run to see your Average dE numbers....

After that Pefrorm a new AutoCAL to another Memory Slot with Cube dE Target of 3 and then, remeasure again Grayscale + Saturation + Color Checker Run to see your Average dE numbers....

Later, Load some familiar content and swap throught these memories... Do you see a difference? Yes... Pause the movie and swap, the difference will be more noticable. It's not day/night difference but is visible...

If you calibrate your display and you use our popular meters like iD3 + i1PRO, and then take your Grayscale+Saturations readings that got you average dE 0.5 for example, this means only that you are good versus your current meters.

So you have to add +1 / +2 dE or more because this is the average difference or your i1PRO compared to a better spectro like JETI/PhotoResearch.

dE of 1.0 is the smallest colour difference the human eye can see.

So, theoretically any dE less than 1.0 is imperceptible, while any dE greater than 1.0 is noticeable. However, some colour differences greater than 1 can be imperceptible, while some colour differences below 1.0 can be very visible, depending on the colour being measured.


Also same dE color difference between two colors, for example comparing 2 yellows and two greens may not look like the same difference to our eye.


My following report came at 2010 when I was using CalMAN 4 with my VideoEQ Pro for manual calibration, these numbers are beyong Beyond Human Perception. looooool


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #13 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This 'dE below 3 errors are not visible by humans' is a myth, it came out a lot of years before when the displays had poor controls or their controls were broken to correct down to a low dE average a display.

Wow! Now that's a big ass can of worms you just knocked over.. better put the lid back on quick!

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post #14 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This 'dE below 3 errors are not visible by humans' is a myth, it came out a lot of years before when the displays had poor controls or their controls were broken to correct down to a low dE average a display.

Wow! Now that's a big ass can of worms you just knocked over.. better put the lid back on quick!

You can perform the above test to realize the difference.

Also a single gamut or saturation run difference of 1dE vs. 3dE is not limited to only these few color points your are measuring, imagine also the thousands of color points that will have this difference also, but you haven't measured them to see.. wink.gif

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post #15 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Why not just calibrated it manually, runs saturation sweeps, luminous sweeps, and color checker. If all errors are under a Delta of 3 (beyond visual perception), why spend the money to make it better when you can't see the difference? On the other hand if it does not track well add the hardware...

Was asking if I could get better results, of course I know I can do it manually. The eecolor calibrates for 3000+ colors and the Lumagen for 125, I think its a reasonable question to ask
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post #16 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 02:11 PM
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I saw a delta E and a half the other day.

They were over near 4th street.
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post #17 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Was asking if I could get better results, of course I know I can do it manually. The eecolor calibrates for 3000+ colors and the Lumagen for 125, I think its a reasonable question to ask

Your right, didn't realize what that projector cost, at $16,000 one would expect to have to buy more hardware to get it calibrated properly wink.gif Just kidding, I get where you are coming from.

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post #18 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This 'dE below 3 errors are not visible by humans' is a myth, it came out a lot of years before when the displays had poor controls or their controls were broken to correct down to a low dE average a display.

Wow! Now that's a big ass can of worms you just knocked over.. better put the lid back on quick!

Some interesting info:

The tolerance of the greyscale tracking for grade 1 monitors, this about dE UV=0.5.

SMPTE's Color error tolerance is about dE1994=1.5.

With meters like i1pro1/2, we have +1-2dE added already before measuring our display...

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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post #19 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Your right, didn't realize what that projector cost, at $16,000 one would expect to have to buy more hardware to get it calibrated properly wink.gif Just kidding, I get where you are coming from.

I got it for 80% off, so I'm using my JVC upgrade money to get the most out of it. My excited about this projector.


I have a question, why do colors drift? Is it because the lamp changes as it ages? I was wondering why an LED projector drifts more.
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post #20 of 50 Old 08-27-2013, 06:02 PM
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How do you like the led so far?
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post #21 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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[quame="ultra 150 pilot" url="/t/1486657/help-me-decide-how-to-calibrate-my-projector#post_23675707"]How do you like the led so far?[/quote]

It arrives Friday
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post #22 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

I am curious about where your "I always hear how you don't need to do calibrations as often." comes from? Where are you hearing this from? Professionals or just a bunch of other people that don't know but offer up their opinion anyway? smile.gif (Called uninformed opinions - I don't know anything about that subject, but I still have an opinion. ... hmmm value of an uninformed opinion ... = less than nothing.)

Regards

Here is some webites that states no color drift over time.

www.digitalprojection.com/news/literature/LED_versus_UHP_1110.pdf

http://www.runco.com/products/projectors/led/

http://www.hometheater.com/content/runco-q-750i-led-dlp-projector

http://www.connect-west.ca/technology

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/digital-projection-m-vision-cine-led-projector
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post #23 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 09:31 AM
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Greetings

Thanks for the links.

Gotta love the manufacturer claims ... and then there is reality.

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
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post #24 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This 'dE below 3 errors are not visible by humans' is a myth, it came out a lot of years before when the displays had poor controls or their controls were broken to correct down to a low dE average a display.

The Correct sentence for me is that: dE below 3 is more difficult to be recognised by average people that are not familiar with color, whose who can't identify from 2 images which has more natural shades/colors, or have no experience of what a reference image it looks like...

Anyone who has Lumagen and CalMAN and some time can check this to his own system doing a single test:

With the same Pre-Calibration Settings:

Perform an AutoCAL using one Lumagen Memory Slot with Cube dE Target of 0.5 and after it's finished, Run a Grayscale + Saturation + Color Checker Run to see your Average dE numbers....

After that Pefrorm a new AutoCAL to another Memory Slot with Cube dE Target of 3 and then, remeasure again Grayscale + Saturation + Color Checker Run to see your Average dE numbers....

Later, Load some familiar content and swap throught these memories... Do you see a difference? Yes... Pause the movie and swap, the difference will be more noticable. It's not day/night difference but is visible...

If you calibrate your display and you use our popular meters like iD3 + i1PRO, and then take your Grayscale+Saturations readings that got you average dE 0.5 for example, this means only that you are good versus your current meters.

So you have to add +1 / +2 dE or more because this is the average difference or your i1PRO compared to a better spectro like JETI/PhotoResearch.

dE of 1.0 is the smallest colour difference the human eye can see.

So, theoretically any dE less than 1.0 is imperceptible, while any dE greater than 1.0 is noticeable. However, some colour differences greater than 1 can be imperceptible, while some colour differences below 1.0 can be very visible, depending on the colour being measured.


Also same dE color difference between two colors, for example comparing 2 yellows and two greens may not look like the same difference to our eye.


My following report came at 2010 when I was using CalMAN 4 with my VideoEQ Pro for manual calibration, these numbers are beyong Beyond Human Perception. looooool


Can you easily spot these errors using the new color comparator feature? I can barely tell and this is with static swatches, not moving video like with a BD movie.


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Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #25 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Thanks for the links.

Gotta love the manufacturer claims ... and then there is reality.

regards

Just showing you I wasn't crazy. I heard that a lot
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post #26 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This 'dE below 3 errors are not visible by humans' is a myth, it came out a lot of years before when the displays had poor controls or their controls were broken to correct down to a low dE average a display.

The Correct sentence for me is that: dE below 3 is more difficult to be recognised by average people that are not familiar with color, whose who can't identify from 2 images which has more natural shades/colors, or have no experience of what a reference image it looks like...

Anyone who has Lumagen and CalMAN and some time can check this to his own system doing a single test:

With the same Pre-Calibration Settings:

Perform an AutoCAL using one Lumagen Memory Slot with Cube dE Target of 0.5 and after it's finished, Run a Grayscale + Saturation + Color Checker Run to see your Average dE numbers....

After that Pefrorm a new AutoCAL to another Memory Slot with Cube dE Target of 3 and then, remeasure again Grayscale + Saturation + Color Checker Run to see your Average dE numbers....

Later, Load some familiar content and swap throught these memories... Do you see a difference? Yes... Pause the movie and swap, the difference will be more noticable. It's not day/night difference but is visible...

If you calibrate your display and you use our popular meters like iD3 + i1PRO, and then take your Grayscale+Saturations readings that got you average dE 0.5 for example, this means only that you are good versus your current meters.

So you have to add +1 / +2 dE or more because this is the average difference or your i1PRO compared to a better spectro like JETI/PhotoResearch.

dE of 1.0 is the smallest colour difference the human eye can see.

So, theoretically any dE less than 1.0 is imperceptible, while any dE greater than 1.0 is noticeable. However, some colour differences greater than 1 can be imperceptible, while some colour differences below 1.0 can be very visible, depending on the colour being measured.


Also same dE color difference between two colors, for example comparing 2 yellows and two greens may not look like the same difference to our eye.


My following report came at 2010 when I was using CalMAN 4 with my VideoEQ Pro for manual calibration, these numbers are beyong Beyond Human Perception. looooool


Can you easily spot these errors using the new color comparator feature? I can barely tell and this is with static swatches, not moving video like with a BD movie.




From The CalMAN Screen Capture you have posted, the PC Monitors are not the ideal screens to make color comparisons of the different spot of two color because of they angle color shifting problems, but i'm moving this Color Comparison to the Next Level that will make all see the difference clearer to all wink.gif

What I Did?

I made some AnimaTED Gifs with Color RGB Triplets taken from these Data's that CalMAN has at these small Color Comparitor Boxes. Actual & Target Boxes.

I made 2 different 300px x 300px Full Color Images for each Color, One Frame with RGB Value from Your Actual Measured Color and another Frame with RGB Triplet Information from the Target Color,
All these Data's are coming from CalMAN Image Comparitor Boxes.

You can verify them if you like, I did that already with screen capturing the AnimaTED GIF Frame Files to see if the values are maching with these at your picture.

So we have:

























White Color Difference between 2 Frames of 0.3 dE2000










































Red Color Difference between 2 Frames of 1.3 dE2000










































Green Color Difference between 2 Frames of 2.1 dE2000










































Blue Color Difference between 2 Frames of 3.1 dE2000










































Cyan Color Difference between 2 Frames of 0.9 dE2000










































Magenta Color Difference between 2 Frames of 1.1 dE2000










































Yellow Color Difference between 2 Frames of 0.7 dE2000

























Now tell me that you don't see the Red 1.1dE or the Cyan 0.9dE.....

Please users that found my original post very extreme to comment about the difference you see of Green 2.1 dE or Red 1.4dE also, who are still believing what 3.0 dE is the limit of Human Perception....

Case Closed.... 1.0 - 3.0 dE Difference is visible but it has to do with color you are comparing, some low dE differencies can be more or less noticed.

Also when you are watching a movie with a static camera where 2 actors are talking....this is not a moving resolution image...

Moving resolution means when a car is passing by , or when the camera or objects are moving fast..

Imagine that LED/LCD have only motion resolution of 300-400 lines...

So we can't talk of what is happening with motion resolution color difference since the tests of color difference and the dE formulas are coming from static color comparisons.

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post #27 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


Please users that found my original post very extreme to comment about the difference you see of Green 2.1 dE or Red 1.4dE also, who are still believing what 3.0 dE is the limit of Human Perception....

Case Closed.... 1.0 - 3.0 dE Difference is visible but it has to do with color you are comparing, some low dE differencies can be more or less noticed.

Also when you are watching a movie with a static camera where 2 actors are talking....this is not a moving resolution image...

Moving resolution means when a car is passing by , or when the camera or objects are moving fast..

Imagine that LED/LCD have only motion resolution of 300-400 lines...

So we can't talk of what is happening with motion resolution color difference since the tests of color difference and the dE formulas are coming from static color comparisons.

Maybe the issue here is the context of my original statement and the info I left out that is assumed everyone understood.
A dE of 3 or less in moving video content without direct comparison is beyond visual perception. Yes we can see the difference in 2 triplets in a gif but will you be able to watch a movie and say "HEY the sky is off by a dE of 2.1 .. when the sky can be a billion different triplets and you are not there looking at the sky and the output of the projector at the same time... I am sure that a color cube LUT calibrations with a thousands of corrections is better, and when a person buys a high end projector, I get it that they want it as good as money can make it.. However for the average consumer grade TV < dE 3 is good, if you can get ti better great, if you have to spend $2000 to get it better, and you have it, go for it, but that is not withing the reach of the majority of folks here on this forum. Since the OP was asking about 2 different LUT type products I should not have mentioned manual calibration since that was not what he was asking about and I have never used the products he was asking about.

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post #28 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Yes we can see the difference in 2 triplets in a gif but will you be able to watch a movie and say "HEY the sky is off by a dE of 2.1 .. when the sky can be a billion different triplets and you are not there looking at the sky and the output of the projector at the same time...

while I get what you're trying to say, it's still doesn't make sense, because none of us (or not many) have been at the original scene on set. Second, it's not about how to "sky looked like on set", it's about how it got graded to look like in post... the director's or colorist's intent.

And that's what you want to get as close as possible to with accurate calibration.

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post #29 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Yes we can see the difference in 2 triplets in a gif but will you be able to watch a movie and say "HEY the sky is off by a dE of 2.1 .. when the sky can be a billion different triplets and you are not there looking at the sky and the output of the projector at the same time...

while I get what you're trying to say, it's still doesn't make sense, because none of us (or not many) have been at the original scene on set. Second, it's not about how to "sky looked like on set", it's about how it got graded to look like in post... the director's or colorist's intent.

And that's what you want to get as close as possible to with accurate calibration.

- M

Exactly wink.gif

If you have 2.0dE on RED primary color means that you have the same or larger dE to the all others 3.5 million colors that at using RED as a part of the RGB possible combination of 10.6 million possible colors of a Video Range Signal.

You are off at all these shades, at some shades maybe with larger dE becasue you are measuring one color point of RED only to find this 2.0dE difference, that's why color scientist they have decide to use a 17-Point Cube and not a 5p or 10p or 15p as a standard cube resolution for accurate total correction to all display regions.

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post #30 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Yes we can see the difference in 2 triplets in a gif but will you be able to watch a movie and say "HEY the sky is off by a dE of 2.1 .. when the sky can be a billion different triplets and you are not there looking at the sky and the output of the projector at the same time...

while I get what you're trying to say, it's still doesn't make sense, because none of us (or not many) have been at the original scene on set. Second, it's not about how to "sky looked like on set", it's about how it got graded to look like in post... the director's or colorist's intent.

And that's what you want to get as close as possible to with accurate calibration.

- M

DI/Colorist/Directors...they all are previewing each scene/frame using some 17-Point Cube Calibrated Monitor also.

They don't use 5-Point Cube LUT Resolution or 21-Step Grayscale + 6-Color Calibrated Displays using their Internal Controls only, because this will never work, for the level of accurancy they want.

Think also that their 17-Point Cube CalibraTED Displays have price range around 10.000-40.000$....

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