NEW LightSpace Home Cinema Light - Affordable 3D LUTs For The Enthusiast Calibrator - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 08-27-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post

Checked my last ZT60 calibration, grayscale average dE was 0.7 and chromaticity 0.6. ( I cant measure the inside gamut performance if I cant check the points - Lightspace will help me ).

exactly, it's almost useless just checking the primaries for dE... dE is a limited number anyways, it's the best we got, but it is limited...

which movies show primaries all the time ?

u need to get good performance in the 20-70% range, that's where the meat is...

I think a 3D LUT - if done correctly - will always beat (or at least match) a manual 6pt correction.

if the display is VERY linear, Pro grading displays for example, u can easily get away with this... but on consumer displays - especially PLASMA - u need more correction points...


- M

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post #32 of 55 Old 08-27-2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post

Ted and Mike, thanks for your input.

id3Pro for hybrid mode reading "only" 1000 points - should take less than 2hours. You think with this mode, will I still be to beat the calibration results using internal TV controls if done correctly? Checked my last ZT60 calibration, grayscale average dE was 0.7 and chromaticity 0.6. ( I cant measure the inside gamut performance if I cant check the points - Lightspace will help me ).
Peter

listening to the Mr. Jensen interview

If you are talking about improving your dE's, no LS will not help. At-least with my VT60 and that is using a full 17^3 (4913) profile.

Also understand that LS is not a one size fits all (plug and play) calibration tool. iow like CM its trial and error to determine what is the defacto way to per set your display for a profile and then making a video legal LUT from that profile (LUT is easy takes about 3 sec). However once you start to understand what the charts mean from LS you can simply run a quick profile, using a D3 meter that will take about 15 min to run.
That said if you are getting grayscale average dE 's of 0.7 with maybe a high under 2, then it would suggest to me that you have a good grip on how to setup your pre settings. As long as you are not adjusting Green and not using Gamma detailed adjustments.

You may want to read this discussion in the CP thread starting with this link.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1174468/the-official-chromapure-thread/4620#post_23654807

ss
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post #33 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 05:38 AM
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As has been discussed a couple of times, DeltaE is actually not a very good indicator of overall accuracy of calibration., as it shows nothign about the volumetric colour accuracy.

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/delta-e.html

A good way to assess overall calibration accuracy is to perform a full 17^3 profile of the 'calibrated display', and then generate another 3D LUT Cube from the profile data.

The closer this cube is to being a perfect cube the better the overall accuracy.

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/probe_use.html

Scroll to where is shows 3 Cube displays and says "The fist cube shows the target calibration. Effectively, what a perfectly calibrated display would look like when compared to the target colour space and gamma."

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post #34 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 08:32 AM
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So from what you are saying Steve, I would think the second profile/LUT (using no active LUT) you made from the first LUT would also have even better PQ. Is this correct.?

ss
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post #35 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 09:24 AM
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So why would someone choose this over Calman or ChromaPure?
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post #36 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

So from what you are saying Steve, I would think the second profile/LUT (using no active LUT) you made from the first LUT would also have even better PQ. Is this correct.?

ss
...and (theoretically) if you kept going with this iterative process, you will asymptotically approach "perfection" - assuming you have enough computational precision. biggrin.gif
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post #37 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

So why would someone choose this over Calman or ChromaPure?

For me its this:

a. Calibration using TV/projector inbuilt controls cant achieve reference calibration results
b. This should be discussed and proofed more in depth, but there are reports where using 10p WB or CMS in TV/projector menu has lead to banding/image distortions
c. LUTs can be uploaded either to eeColor or Lumagen, but also into HTPC ( madVR video renderer )
d. LUT based calibration seems to be the future and I want to learn, test and compare
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post #38 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

So from what you are saying Steve, I would think the second profile/LUT (using no active LUT) you made from the first LUT would also have even better PQ. Is this correct.?

ss

I think he only meant that as a comparison / assessment - u wouldn't be able to use the second LUT (as a correction / calibration LUT) as it is based on the already calibrated display (using the first LUT).

looking at the second LUT / cube that comes from a full 17^3 profile from the calibrated display (using the original LUT) and comparing it with a "perfect cube" u can then start making assessments how good the calibration of the first LUT is. This is better than just using the limited dE approach to assess a display's accuracy.

but, you'd have to run a full 17p again... ;-)

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post #39 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post



but, you'd have to run a full 17p again... ;-)

- M

Well, yeah, if you want to look at 4913 dots to see if they are where they are supposed to be. wink.gif

A Quick Profile through the LUT should yield an adequate amount of information.

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post #40 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Well, yeah, if you want to look at 4913 dots to see if they are where they are supposed to be. wink.gif

A Quick Profile through the LUT should yield an adequate amount of information.

exactly, trying to figure out which of the thousands of points is off would be a fun game... ;-)))))

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post #41 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

CalMAN is supporting Both Version of i1Display (id3): OEM + Retail version, a long time now.

ChromaPure was supporting OEM and it started to support Retail Also before 1-2 months.

LightSpace / THX CineSpace HD I have used supports only the OEM version currently.

Since I wasn't aware, I just checked the websites and both CalMAN and ChromaPure support both the retail and OEM version of the meter.

Unfortunately the i1Display Pro name has created a lot of confusion. Is there a way to tell the difference between the OEM and Retail version if someone only has the meter? Either by visual inspection or by checking Windows (i.e. Device Manager)?
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post #42 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

Since I wasn't aware, I just checked the websites and both CalMAN and ChromaPure support both the retail and OEM version of the meter.

Unfortunately the i1Display Pro name has created a lot of confusion. Is there a way to tell the difference between the OEM and Retail version if someone only has the meter? Either by visual inspection or by checking Windows (i.e. Device Manager)?

look at the dongle on the cable that has the serial number... ;-)

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post #43 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

CalMAN is supporting Both Version of i1Display (id3): OEM + Retail version, a long time now.

ChromaPure was supporting OEM and it started to support Retail Also before 1-2 months.

LightSpace / THX CineSpace HD I have used supports only the OEM version currently.

Since I wasn't aware, I just checked the websites and both CalMAN and ChromaPure support both the retail and OEM version of the meter.

Unfortunately the i1Display Pro name has created a lot of confusion. Is there a way to tell the difference between the OEM and Retail version if someone only has the meter? Either by visual inspection or by checking Windows (i.e. Device Manager)?

If you bought the id3 from local store or Amazon and it came with a box with X-Rite Software iProfiler then you got the Retail version.

Both meters are the same, from hardware view.

The Retail i1Display Pro will support X-Rite software and any 3rd party software that has obtained a license from X-Rite to support our standard hardware.
Retail's Version part number is: “EODIS3-XR”.
This is the ONLY version of the i1Display Pro device that will work with X-Rite software.

The OEM device will look exactly like a standard i1Display Pro except the part number will include “OEM”.
All OEM Generic devices will support any software that implements support for the OEM Generic device.
This device will NOT work with any X-Rite software.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #44 of 55 Old 08-28-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

exactly, trying to figure out which of the thousands of points is off would be a fun game... ;-)))))
Sooo, that's what volumetric color accuracy is!
Then again, I don't think I want to know.
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post #45 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 01:19 AM
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You don't actually need to look at each point in turn...
The overall cube shape will show you the level of accuracy, and allow you to quickly and easily see if the calibration is good.
You can move around the cube, to see the points from any perspective and zoom level.

Correcting the accuracy is all part of what calibration with LightSpace does - automatically.

smile.gif

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post #46 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 03:58 AM
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For anyone else having difficulty finding the price, it works out to just under $700 U.S for the software at today's exchange rate..


Ted,

When you release you pattern disc, how exactly does it stay in synch with the software. Seems that with 4000 reads, you would at some point run into a synch issue.

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post #47 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Using 3D LUTs can be a "bright" idea....

The Panasonic VT50 plasma max luminance is about 42-43 FtL in the ISF Day mode because the panel brightness MID setting is used. Panel brightness HIGH introduces problems that skew calibrations and has consequently not been used in professional calibrations and this is the way I had mine set up. Because my personal 65VT50 is in a room with huge western facing windows I considered replacing the VT50 with a Samsung F8500 plasma and its much touted luminance level. I gave up on that one after watching black float from .002 FtL at 4.8% APL to .02 (not a typo) at 51.3% APL. The high end 2013 Panasonics didn't offer any large improvements over the VT50 so I used LightSpace to produce a LUT with the panel at panel brightness HIGH and Contrast 100%. Pre LUT white and the primaries were all crushed but the LUT took care of that. There is a post here that I made and there is a ChromaPure Advanced Calibration Report available for downloading.

The bottom line is that my VT50 Day mode now puts out about 50 Foot Lamberts accurately, something not possible with out a 3D LUT. wink.gif
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post #48 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ted,

When you release you pattern disc, how exactly does it stay in synch with the software. Seems that with 4000 reads, you would at some point run into a synch issue.

well technically not. Ted has run tests and has had no problems with VERY LONG profile runs, i.e. around 10 hours as he was testing the longer DIP time settings.

the synch is very simple, LS moves on to read each new pattern in a time frame the user can specify and you have to choose the corresponding interval in Ted's disc, e.g. 6s per pattern.

The only thing that you - as a user - have to trigger manually correctly is the start sync. That's it.


Now, I've tested Ted's disc way back in Jan and I ran into a sync issue with my PS3. Over the long time frame it did not keep sync, but that was a hardware issue on my end. Either my PS3 "slows down" over time or maybe there was read error that threw everything off, who knows. I will try again soon w/ the K10 as the time frame is much less.


Another great thing about the disc, you can also rip the m2ts files and use them to perfectly calibrate your media players, if you wish to.

- M

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post #49 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

If you bought the id3 from local store or Amazon and it came with a box with X-Rite Software iProfiler then you got the Retail version.

Both meters are the same, from hardware view.

The Retail i1Display Pro will support X-Rite software and any 3rd party software that has obtained a license from X-Rite to support our standard hardware.
Retail's Version part number is: “EODIS3-XR”.
This is the ONLY version of the i1Display Pro device that will work with X-Rite software.

The OEM device will look exactly like a standard i1Display Pro except the part number will include “OEM”.
All OEM Generic devices will support any software that implements support for the OEM Generic device.
This device will NOT work with any X-Rite software.

Thanks. IronMike had the right idea but glad you gave the full explanation.

BTW, I have the Retail version. Unfortunately that means I can't use LightSpace CMS. Bummer.
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post #50 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

well technically not. Ted has run tests and has had no problems with VERY LONG profile runs, i.e. around 10 hours as he was testing the longer DIP time settings.

the synch is very simple, LS moves on to read each new pattern in a time frame the user can specify and you have to choose the corresponding interval in Ted's disc, e.g. 6s per pattern.

The only thing that you - as a user - have to trigger manually correctly is the start sync. That's it.


Now, I've tested Ted's disc way back in Jan and I ran into a sync issue with my PS3. Over the long time frame it did not keep sync, but that was a hardware issue on my end. Either my PS3 "slows down" over time or maybe there was read error that threw everything off, who knows. I will try again soon w/ the K10 as the time frame is much less.


Another great thing about the disc, you can also rip the m2ts files and use them to perfectly calibrate your media players, if you wish to.

- M

Mike,

Thanks for responding.

Let us know how this goes the next time you run it.

Jim

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post #51 of 55 Old 08-29-2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

For anyone else having difficulty finding the price, it works out to just under $700 U.S for the software at today's exchange rate..


Ted,

When you release you pattern disc, how exactly does it stay in synch with the software. Seems that with 4000 reads, you would at some point run into a synch issue.

Jim, I have just replyed to your answer of how my disk works here.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #52 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 08:59 AM
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I'm very interested in this product...
When can you publish the tutorial (#2 post)?
Thanks
Stefano

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post #53 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobracalde View Post

I'm very interested in this product...
When can you publish the tutorial (#2 post)?
Thanks
Stefano

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Hi Stefano - there are already tutorials available for display setup, LightSpace use, loading LUTs into the eeBox, how to make your own custom on screen displays (OSD), and more. I'll try and add the url information to post #2 tonight as I'll be busy for much of the day.

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post #54 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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post #55 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 08:44 AM
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Thanks!
I'll stay tuned... (i have a Radiance XS processor)
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