Lumagen Announces 9-Point Cube Gamut (729 Color Points) for the Radiance 20XX - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 155 Old 09-06-2013, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Lumagen has just posted a new release (082013) for the Radiance 20XX units (only) that adds a 9x9x9 (729 points) RGB palette for CMS. Download Link

Note that the Radiance Mini/XD/XE/XS will not get a 9x9x9 palette due to limited space in their FPGA.

The calibration software vendors (Chromapure, Light Illusion, Spectracal) should have new releases that support the new 9x9x9 very soon.

NOTICE: You should Download your configuration to a PC (don't forget to save to a file after downloading) before updating. Once you update, use the 9x9x9, and Save, you cannot revert to older software without doing a factory reset, or uploading a configuration from before the 082013 release (after rolling back software). This is because the 729 point CMS required changing the configuration memory allocation.

===========================================
Here is the text from the update log:

Production 082013- Adds new 9x9x9 (729 point) gamut correction. Previous 125 point calibrations are not modified unless you choose to do so. You can optionally change from 125 point mode to the new 729 point mode which will maintain your calibration and interpolate the new points that could then be adjusted if necessary. You can also still calibrate in 8 or 125 point mode in the menu or with older calibration software as well. Look for updates soon from SpectraCal, Chromapure and Light Illusion supporting the new Radiance 9x9x9 CMS. Fixup for potentially not detecting that 3D was discontinued by a source. A few fixes for HDMI audio handshaking. Update time ~15 minutes @57k

Notes:

This update modifies the configuration to accommodate the new 9x9x9 gamut. Try the new update for a little bit before making config changes and saving. Once you have performed a "Save" configuration command with this update and you are using CMS 2-7 then going back to previous firmware and using CMS 2-7 will give incorrect colors. You could however perform an "Undo", save that, and then go back, reload an old saved configuration file, or do a factory reset to go back if you perform a save with this new update..

The configuration utility was updated to handle the 9x9x9 gamut data so download and use config utility v1.6 after updating.


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post #2 of 155 Old 09-06-2013, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Light Illusion has available a beta build of LightSpace that has 9-Point Cube LUT Export Support for Lumagen Radiance 200xx Series.

That Beta Build Of LightSpace will be available only to those who will contact directly to Steve Shaw (steve@lightillusion.com).

The Official Release of LightSpace with Lumagen 9-Point Cube Export Support is planned for the next week...


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post #3 of 155 Old 09-06-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Supported Software News

CalMAN 5.2.0.1319 Beta (Build 1319-0830.5) does include support for the new 9x cube size made available in the new 20xx Radiance models.

ChromaPure will add support for the Lumagen 729 color point calibration during next week. (It will be a free upgrade for all Advanced Auto-Calibration users).


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post #4 of 155 Old 09-08-2013, 02:37 PM
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Hi Ted,
Does this mean measuring 729 points with Radiance 20XX or its "only" interpolation math? The former would mean that the update brings new patterns for Radiance 20XX, or em I missing something?
Thanks
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post #5 of 155 Old 09-08-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post

Hi Ted,
Does this mean measuring 729 points with Radiance 20XX or its "only" interpolation math? The former would mean that the update brings new patterns for Radiance 20XX, or em I missing something?
Thanks
Pluto

It's using 729 real color points to store into the Gamut Correction LUT, the software is correcting each color point, and later Lumagen Engine is applying the interpolations between these color points.


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post #6 of 155 Old 09-11-2013, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Lumagen has update their Tip 2- Gamut Calibration--Updated for 9x9x9 Point Setup document to include informations about 9x9x9 Cube Callibrations.


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post #7 of 155 Old 09-11-2013, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 090113 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Fix for the Output Copy command which would incorrectly copy new 9x9x9 CMS resulting in funky colors for the copied CMS's.

Download Link


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post #8 of 155 Old 09-13-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 090213 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Replaces revision 090113 as the 9x9x9 CMS issue it addressed was only partially fixed.

Download Link


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post #9 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 02:17 AM
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Tried using LS with the latest firmware for the 2041 and 729 points LUT, doesn't work.
Tried using CM5 with the latest firmware for the 2041 and 729 points LUT, work very well.
Below are so screen shots from the completed LUT using Calman 5 and the Lumagen 2041




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post #10 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 05:20 AM
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New LS Version 6.4.2.1727 released yesterday, 9/13/13, contains fix for the Lumagens.

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post #11 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 05:25 AM
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Steve just E-Mailed me the update.

I am back using my eecolor until I have time to run LS.

btw, where is your instructions to use LS and Lumagen.?

Thanks,

ss

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post #12 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post


btw, where is your instructions to use LS and Lumagen.?

I don't think anything has changed on this page - http://www.lightillusion.com/lumagen.html

Although I don't own a new model Lumagen, I'm pretty sure LightSpace now recognizes which Radiance is connected and automatically enables the correct LUT parameters for the type.

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post #13 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

New LS Version 6.4.2.1727 released yesterday, 9/13/13, contains fix for the Lumagens.

LightSpace CMS 6.4.2.1727

A new version of LightSpace is now available.

This version includes:

-- New Lumagen 9^3 LUT capability

DOWNLOAD LightSpace CMS Demo or For Licensed Users

DOWNLOAD LightSpace DPS (Display Profiling System) Free Version License


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post #14 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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2.172 Meter Readings to correct 729 Color Points gives ~3 Meter Average Reads per color point... A lot of reads...

How many it took to correct your 21-Step Grayscale?


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post #15 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 06:52 AM
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Don't know, but it was pretty quick. I think under 2 min.

ss

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post #16 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Don't know, but it was pretty quick. I think under 2 min.

ss

2 min with Klein is about 250 readings. lol


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post #17 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 08:15 AM
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Heads Up,

With a Open BCS file, after making the conversion before uploading file to a 2041, open CMS>options and set for 9x9x9 save then upload file. If you don't set 9x9x9 the upload will not take.

Thanks Ted for the BCS file.

Much better than CM5, and the BCS file was made with eecolor in the loop.

ss

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post #18 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Heads Up,

With a Open BCS file, after making the conversion before uploading file to a 2041, open CMS>options and set for 9x9x9 save then upload file. If you don't set 9x9x9 the upload will not take.

Thanks Ted for the BCS file.

Much better than CM5, and the BCS file was made with eecolor in the loop.

ss

I believe only a few people understood what you just did...


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post #19 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 10:24 AM
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Just to confirm that Lightspace interogates the scaler to find out if it supports a 9x9x9 cube and if it does that is what it sends, if not, 5x5x5

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post #20 of 155 Old 09-14-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

Just to confirm that Lightspace interogates the scaler to find out if it supports a 9x9x9 cube and if it does that is what it sends, if not, 5x5x5

Ahh you got what I was saying about using a profile that was made with eecolor box in the loop for eecolor box.

Just to be clear, in my last post I used a profile (17^3) that was made for eecolor box and stored in LS.. I video scaled the profile therefore it was a active LUT in Ls, and used the upload tool (for the Radiance) in LS. Made sure the null box was Unchecked and no window size, then hit the upload bottom to upload the active LUT to the 2041.

However what I found was the 2041 didn't install the uploaded active LUT in the Radiance CMS Gamut, so I opened the gamut and there is a drop down box for the size of the CMS you want to install in the 2041 memory (5, 5x5x5, 9x9x9). So I click on 9x9x9 in the memory I wanted the file to do to and then uploaded the active LUT from LS, I checked after the LUT was uploaded to the 2041 and it was there.

After installing the LUT in the 2041, I found that the brightness control in my VT60 was a little to high so I dropped it down by one notch and also using the built in darbee control lowered it from the default of 40 to 30.

I will asap make a profile (17^3) using LS and the 2041 LUT (9x9x9x), taking eecolor box out of the loop and see what happens.

ss

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post #21 of 155 Old 09-15-2013, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

Just to confirm that Lightspace interogates the scaler to find out if it supports a 9x9x9 cube and if it does that is what it sends, if not, 5x5x5

Ahh you got what I was saying about using a profile that was made with eecolor box in the loop for eecolor box.

Just to be clear, in my last post I used a profile (17^3) that was made for eecolor box and stored in LS.. I video scaled the profile therefore it was a active LUT in Ls, and used the upload tool (for the Radiance) in LS. Made sure the null box was Unchecked and no window size, then hit the upload bottom to upload the active LUT to the 2041.

However what I found was the 2041 didn't install the uploaded active LUT in the Radiance CMS Gamut, so I opened the gamut and there is a drop down box for the size of the CMS you want to install in the 2041 memory (5, 5x5x5, 9x9x9). So I click on 9x9x9 in the memory I wanted the file to do to and then uploaded the active LUT from LS, I checked after the LUT was uploaded to the 2041 and it was there.

After installing the LUT in the 2041, I found that the brightness control in my VT60 was a little to high so I dropped it down by one notch and also using the built in darbee control lowered it from the default of 40 to 30.

I will asap make a profile (17^3) using LS and the 2041 LUT (9x9x9x), taking eecolor box out of the loop and see what happens.

ss

VideoScale Filter is only for eeColor, Lumagen don't need it, that's why you have rised blacks wink.gif


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post #22 of 155 Old 09-15-2013, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

VideoScale Filter is only for eeColor, Lumagen don't need it, that's why you have rised blacks wink.gif

Ahh, its been so long since I used a Radiance and loaded a LUT in it, that I forgot how to do it.
I am doing a full LUT now using LS (of-course) and the 2041.

Thanks Ted.

ss

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post #23 of 155 Old 09-15-2013, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I don't know if you ever saw a Charley the tuna commercial, but CM remains me of Charley except ratter than "good taste" its good dE's but not so good PQ. smile.gif
LS is the other guy that wants "taste's good" (Great PQ). wink.gif

For the radiance, I don't see how that can be since with the limited number of calibration points, they are either right or not.

For the colorbox where both packages are doing quite a bit of interpolation to fill out 250,000 points there is a huge opportunity for the differences in algorithms to effect the final result. We just did a significant overhaul of our underlying interpolation algorithm. The 1324 Beta has part 1 of our 3rd Generation cube technology. I'd be interested to see your take on it.

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post #24 of 155 Old 09-15-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
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For the radiance, I don't see how that can be since with the limited number of calibration points, they are either right or not.

For the colorbox where both packages are doing quite a bit of interpolation to fill out 250,000 points there is a huge opportunity for the differences in algorithms to effect the final result. We just did a significant overhaul of our underlying interpolation algorithm. The 1324 Beta has part 1 of our 3rd Generation cube technology. I'd be interested to see your take on it.

I don't mean to come off as bashing Calman, Its that I don't like how CM handles the 9^3 LUT for the new 2041or the larger LUT's for eecolor box. That said the LUT (9^3) that I did using CM worked very well when using a DVD not a Blu Ray as source. I should also add that I used CM 21 point autocal for the grayscale as with LS I do a manual 10 point grayscale using the settings in my VT60 and CM for the grayscale.

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post #25 of 155 Old 09-15-2013, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I don't mean to come off as bashing Calman, Its that I don't like how CM handles the 9^3 LUT for the new 2041or the larger LUT's for eecolor box. That said the LUT (9^3) that I did using CM worked very well when using a DVD not a Blu Ray as source. I should also add that I used CM 21 point autocal for the grayscale as with LS I do a manual 10 point grayscale using the settings in my VT60 and CM for the grayscale.

ss

Our handling of larger LUTs, is all new as of the build we put up on friday. It's a substantial difference and should be evaluated with a fresh eye.

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post #26 of 155 Old 09-16-2013, 02:41 AM
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This whole Lightspace versus CalMAN argument is getting very dull... BOTH work... CalMAN provides lots of numbers to verify. Lightspace less so (but can be verified). BOTH work. As LUTs get larger, any differences become significantly less. BOTH work. Those that shout that CalMAN is rubbish compared to Lightspace have no credibility. BOTH work. Those that shout that Lightspace is rubbish compared to CalMAN have no credibility. BOTH work.

The only major difference is in the way the calibrations are made, and here people may have preferences, but at the end of the day:

BOTH WORK!!!!!!

Enough already.

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post #27 of 155 Old 09-16-2013, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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This whole Lightspace versus CalMAN argument is getting very dull... BOTH work... CalMAN provides lots of numbers to verify. Lightspace less so (but can be verified). BOTH work. As LUTs get larger, any differences become significantly less. BOTH work. Those that shout that CalMAN is rubbish compared to Lightspace have no credibility. BOTH work. Those that shout that Lightspace is rubbish compared to CalMAN have no credibility. BOTH work.

The only major difference is in the way the calibrations are made, and here people may have preferences, but at the end of the day:

BOTH WORK!!!!!!

Enough already.

8 CalMAN Users (Enthusiast-Business-Ultimate Licencies) with various meters (id3, i1pro, i1pro, Klein K-10A, Photoresearch PR-670) and a lot of different setups (KURO, VT50, GT50, VT60, DiLA, Epson LCD, Penta PRO Monitor, Samsung F8000, Various LCD's), I Personally Know, have moved to LightSpace after testing for free the Full Version of LightSpace at their systems.

All these 8 users have confirmed that using LightSpace they have seen better PQ than CalMAN, so all of these 8 users (8 of 8 means 100% LightSpace Success) have bought LightSpace.

Both software works but.... The fact that we haven't found any disappointed LightSpace user means a lot.

Also they are all using CalMAN for different reasons, like 1D LUT Calibrations or by preparing the display for LightSpace 3D Cube Profilings.

I'm still using both ChromaPure/CalMAN/LightSpace when it's needed.


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post #28 of 155 Old 09-16-2013, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

CalMAN provides lots of numbers to verify. Lightspace less so (but can be verified).

You can visualisy using LightSpace 3D Cube Viewer the whole 4913 Color Points, but it's not so imprortant since you can't do any manual control to fix a color point. LightSpace Software decides what is the best correction of the Whole 3D LUT.

BTW If you check the best 3D LUT Solutions of the pro market, none of them feature any detailed (Luminance-Saturation-Color Checker) type of dE Chart, there many other 3D LUT Solutions except TrueLight/THX CineCube/LightSpace CMS that are coming from Professional industry, there they don;t care about Detailed dE Reports/Charts becasue they trust the software.

So If the PRO Industry doesn't care about dE Detailed Reports, here at cunsumer industry, why we are so addicTED with them?

Charts are only the one side of the story....

If you give me one TV display, I can calibrate it using various settings and i can give you 4 different final Image Results (Unwatchable, Good, Very Good, Excellent) the same time that the dE charts can be very similar in Average dE Errors...


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post #29 of 155 Old 09-16-2013, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

BTW If you check the best 3D LUT Solutions of the pro market, none of them feature any detailed (Luminance-Saturation-Color Checker) type of dE Chart, there many other 3D LUT Solutions except TrueLight/THX CineCube/LightSpace CMS that are coming from Professional industry, there they don;t care about Detailed dE Reports/Charts becasue they trust the software.

Indeed, and that strikes me as a very foolish position to adopt. We have industry standards, we have objective measurements as well as quantitative methods for assessing image quality. Why simply throw that away and rely on "gut instinct"? Herd instinct? Baaaaaa.

Ignore dE. Has anybody actually compared the xyY values generated by CalMAN/Lightspace/any other method. They should ALL be coming out with *very* similar numbers... based on the standards requirements. if not, THEN we can have a discussion about which is right and which is wrong...

My cinema:
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post #30 of 155 Old 09-16-2013, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

BTW If you check the best 3D LUT Solutions of the pro market, none of them feature any detailed (Luminance-Saturation-Color Checker) type of dE Chart, there many other 3D LUT Solutions except TrueLight/THX CineCube/LightSpace CMS that are coming from Professional industry, there they don;t care about Detailed dE Reports/Charts becasue they trust the software.

Indeed, and that strikes me as a very foolish position to adopt. We have industry standards, we have objective measurements as well as quantitative methods for assessing image quality. Why simply throw that away and rely on "gut instinct"? Herd instinct? Baaaaaa.

Ignore dE. Has anybody actually compared the xyY values generated by CalMAN/Lightspace/any other method. They should ALL be coming out with *very* similar numbers... based on the standards requirements. if not, THEN we can have a discussion about which is right and which is wrong...

Check Post 2, Post 12, Post 22


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