How to determine what patterns are best for a specific display - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Hello! I would like to find out what's the technique to find out what pettern is best for my plasma (st60). Let's say I'm taking measurements with every wb pattern available in Mascior's disk. Then how will I interpret my resulsts? Where're the bigest errors the patterns are too influenced by ABL and therefore are wrong? Or how? Thank you very much?
Andrei_VVB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 07:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings

You should take a look at this article first.

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/05/apl-of-the-covenant-a-transmitter-for-talking-to-plasma-tv-gods/

Then you will hopefully understand the issues better.

regards
Andrei_VVB likes this.

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Michael, thank you. I appreciate all your writing and help. But, before I even asked something like this I 've asked in different threads and read everything I could find including your article. smile.gif
I can assure that the differences between patterns are higher than what you have found with older models. Especially in lower ire's. And calibrating CMS with abl vs normal patterns will give much richer colours (higher luminances). I will post my graphs lately and if you're kind enough to help me further I'm looking for it.
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #4 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 08:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
I did my own test of various standard and APL window patterns on my S60 plasma here.
Andrei_VVB likes this.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 08:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings

Please do not overlook the main conclusion of the article ... which talks about making rational and fact based decisions on what is the right pattern ... since everyone's viewing patterns are different, how can you equate a 10% APL pattern to what you watch versus an 18% one ...

Regards
Andrei_VVB and BOTBOTCHAI. like this.

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
If I understand your question right (English is not my native) I can tell the differences by eye and by deltaE's which are greater than 3 with some patterns and lowee with others. Gamma is really different too (0, 2 differences and the shape of the graph curve).
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I did my own test of various standard and APL window patterns on my S60 plasma here.
Thanks I saw that but if I remember correctly you didn't mention which is which. Please correct me if I am wrong. smile.gif
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 08:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings

Remember, just because you can tell the difference by eye does not mean something is correct or not. It just means that you can tell the difference. Back to the question of how you know that your viewing patterns equal a 10% APL or something else? And your viewing patterns are different than someone else's.

You are literally looking for some questionnaire where you feed in all the TV shows you watch and the program spits out some kind of recommended APL pattern for you to use. (Which does not exist.)

regards
Andrei_VVB likes this.

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 09:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Thanks I saw that but if I remember correctly you didn't mention which is which. Please correct me if I am wrong. smile.gif

look at the tabs in CalMAN on each screencap... I've edited them from History 1, 2, 3, etc. to the pattern size and type
Andrei_VVB likes this.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
smile.gif well actually I'm looking to calibrate by a standard. That standard exists, I invested in a colorimeter and a lot of tine in research (I have no calibrator in my country), I pop some patterns and I get different results. So, some are good and some are bad. I'm trying to find the right ones. A calibrator should know for sure what to use after seeing charts with different patterns but I'm well aware that there's no perfect calibration for a plasma. Thank you for your answers! smile.gif
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Michael can I ask you a straight question? What would you do if you'll have to do a calibration on a st60? What patterns would you use? Thank you kindly! (I repeat, I will gladly pay for a calibration but there's none around here. )
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 12:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Michael can I ask you a straight question? What would you do if you'll have to do a calibration on a st60? What patterns would you use? Thank you kindly! (I repeat, I will gladly pay for a calibration but there's none around here. )

+1, I'd like to know some general guidelines for window size (standard and APL). I'm currently using 12% (standard) windows from the CMD HD Disc.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 01:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings

The standard pattern is similar to what you find on the DVE disc that Joe Kane created. It is essentially similar to what every professional out there is taught how to do it. It works fine on every technology out there except some plasma sets ... not all. They are not going to come out with a new standard just to deal with one model for one particular year. If it worked like that, there would be 10000's of standards ...

Optimze based on normal windowbox patterns. If you have a "justified" reason to deviate then you do it ... compromise. This is based on facts real evidence and not just because a graph happens to look better.

Ask yourself if it comes down to a game of simply picking something that you "like." Because if it becomes that, then this is just an advanced version of copying settings from other people.

regards
Andrei_VVB likes this.

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks! I get it! So using 10% % normal windows will do the job! If my logic is right I see no reason not to use for cms 75% saturate75% luminance colour patterns because that's closer to the real content. I also like how itu calibrated gama looks so I'll use that. Is that right?
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 02:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
PeterLewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 628
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

The standard pattern is similar to what you find on the DVE disc that Joe Kane created. It is essentially similar to what every professional out there is taught how to do it. It works fine on every technology out there except some plasma sets ... not all. They are not going to come out with a new standard just to deal with one model for one particular year. If it worked like that, there would be 10000's of standards ...

Optimze based on normal windowbox patterns. If you have a "justified" reason to deviate then you do it ... compromise. This is based on facts real evidence and not just because a graph happens to look better.

Ask yourself if it comes down to a game of simply picking something that you "like." Because if it becomes that, then this is just an advanced version of copying settings from other people.

regards

But Joe Kane has recently endorsed the 8% Equal Energy patterns by the Spears and Muncil guys.Read their thread and Stacy mentions that Joe has been going to SMPT conferences promoting and recommending said patterns.

So we are back to square one in regards to Joe,his Dve 18% patterns were made in 05 ,around that time frame when ABL was less intrusive.
PeterLewis is online now  
post #16 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 07:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Actually, the 18% Joe Kane patterns were a holdover from the 18% window patterns he decided worked best for CRT calibration. He never changed them for plasma or lcd tech (not that it would make a difference with LCD). This is straight out of his mouth, face to face.

Bottom line... plasma TVs have ABL... it is ALWAYS going to be there and will ALWAYS alter what you view in some way. Using patterns that intentionally eliminate ABL from the calibration means you are calibrating AROUND the real-world images plasma TVs produce. I believe the most appropriate patterns for plasmas are patterns that are sized appropriately to get SOME ABL action during calibration though getting too much of it will be problematic. So I still use 10%-12% sized windows with black backgrounds.

I will not accept requests to calibrate TVs that are problematic like the ST series. Avoiding ABL entirely during calibration does NOT produce an optimum calibration, but neither does using conventional windows with black backgrounds (with the ST series, for other plasmas, they are fine). Most people aren't willing to pay me $55 per hour to experiment for days trying to determine the best method to calibrate their ST series plasma... my fee is $350 for the first 3.5 hours and $55 per hour after that. And no, I won't trust what someone else has arrived at as the "best" means of calibrating a specific model like the ST plasmas.
PlasmaPZ80U and Andrei_VVB like this.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Are the Spears and Munsil equal energy patterns imune to abl? If so I dont know how this will work.
I now have 2 calibrated modes. The true cinema (is the E version) is calibrated with small apl windows (MCD) and personal (or custom) with 10% normal windows. Of course is a nonsense to compare directly between them because our eyes can be very easy fooled. But, I seem to get more saturared colors un brighter areas with apl and a green tint (especially seen on faces).
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 07:33 AM
Member
 
H Stevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Bottom line... plasma TVs have ABL... it is ALWAYS going to be there and will ALWAYS alter what you view in some way. Using patterns that intentionally eliminate ABL from the calibration means you are calibrating AROUND the real-world images plasma TVs produce. I believe the most appropriate patterns for plasmas are patterns that are sized appropriately to get SOME ABL action during calibration though getting too much of it will be problematic. So I still use 10%-12% sized windows with black backgrounds.

Amen.

This discussion of "What is the correct pattern for plasma?" has been going on for the better part of 3 years that I know of and I've been curious as to when a professional was finally going to come out and say it. Doug, if you have mentioned this before, I missed the post.

Michael TLV has also been trying to get this point across as well over the years, kudos to him.

Standard 10% windows with a black background are the patterns, you want the ABL circuit working during the calibration. I have found that the Chromapure Calibration Disk that Tom had available as a download on his website has always worked the best for me. Simple, straight to the point with an orderly workflow. Forget about the pretty graphs.
Andrei_VVB likes this.
H Stevens is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thank you all for your answers! 10% windows it is then!
Andrei_VVB is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Except that the ST series TVs are very difficult to calibrate correctly. If I owned one and had unlimited time to play with it, I could probably find the optimum way to calibrate it. Everything I've read about the ST series makes me not want to mess with them because Panasonic screwed up and working around Panasonic's problems is not something you can do in a reasonable amount of time.

If you have something other than an ST series, the 10%-12% window size is what you want to use. If you are working on an ST, you are on your own as the "right" thing to use may not be what you want to use on other plasma TVs.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 03:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Except that the ST series TVs are very difficult to calibrate correctly. If I owned one and had unlimited time to play with it, I could probably find the optimum way to calibrate it. Everything I've read about the ST series makes me not want to mess with them because Panasonic screwed up and working around Panasonic's problems is not something you can do in a reasonable amount of time.

If you have something other than an ST series, the 10%-12% window size is what you want to use. If you are working on an ST, you are on your own as the "right" thing to use may not be what you want to use on other plasma TVs.

are the S series plasmas easier to calibrate correctly (S60/S64)?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 03:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 222
I haven't had my hands on an S series plasma yet so can't comment about whether it's better than the ST or not re. calibrate-ability.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 03:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryInRI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,258
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I haven't had my hands on an S series plasma yet so can't comment about whether it's better than the ST or not re. calibrate-ability.

Doug,

Specifically and technically what are the calibration difficulties associated with the ST60 series? Yesterday I placed and order for one to use in the bedroom and I will be doing my own calibration (i1 D3 and i1 Pro.) The 65VT60 that I have in the living room was a delight to work on.

I have seen other mentions of problems with calibrating an ST but unfortunately have yet to find specifics about them.

I do have plenty of time to play with the beast though. smile.gif


Larry
LarryInRI is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 10-19-2013, 05:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
PeterLewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 628
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Doug,what pattern size did you use for VT30's and GT30's when you calibrated those or were they as complicated as the ST60 as well?

Thanks....
PeterLewis is online now  
post #25 of 28 Old 10-20-2013, 09:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Doug,

Specifically and technically what are the calibration difficulties associated with the ST60 series? Yesterday I placed and order for one to use in the bedroom and I will be doing my own calibration (i1 D3 and i1 Pro.) The 65VT60 that I have in the living room was a delight to work on.

I have seen other mentions of problems with calibrating an ST but unfortunately have yet to find specifics about them.

I do have plenty of time to play with the beast though. smile.gif


Larry

If the S and ST series are alike in this manner, you may want to look at this comparison of readings I did with my C6 (unprofiled when I did this, so absolute color accuracy of these readings will be somewhat off... look at relative differences instead). The pattern type and size is noted on the tabs themselves (the ones that usually say history 1, 2, 3, etc.).
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 10-20-2013, 01:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 222
As I said before, if the plasma doesn't have problems / odd behavior, 10%-12% size windows produce excellent results. The VTs calibrate fine with those windows. I can't recall if the GTs behaved properly or not, I only did a couple of those and don't recall problems but don't quote me on that.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #27 of 28 Old 10-20-2013, 01:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Doug,

Specifically and technically what are the calibration difficulties associated with the ST60 series? Yesterday I placed and order for one to use in the bedroom and I will be doing my own calibration (i1 D3 and i1 Pro.) The 65VT60 that I have in the living room was a delight to work on.

I have seen other mentions of problems with calibrating an ST but unfortunately have yet to find specifics about them.

I do have plenty of time to play with the beast though. smile.gif


Larry

Well, if you liked the VT, you're not going to find the ST to be as easy to deal with. The STs have generated threads of discussion about what to do to try to get better calibration results than you get using conventional calibration methods. People have tried, I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 or even more variations trying to get something that results in a good calibration but none of them seem to apply universally to each sample of the ST. If you own an ST, you should read through these threads. There is at least one here on AVS and probably more than that but I only looked-in on one of them. And there may be other forums with ST Cal threads. You're better off reading through what others have tried that didn't work so you're not constantly going down dead-ends trying to get to a good calibration.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 10-20-2013, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

As I said before, if the plasma doesn't have problems / odd behavior, 10%-12% size windows produce excellent results. The VTs calibrate fine with those windows. I can't recall if the GTs behaved properly or not, I only did a couple of those and don't recall problems but don't quote me on that.

How can I determine this for my S series? I did the comparison linked to above, but wasn't exactly sure what to conclude from it. What kind of problems/odd behavior should I be looking for?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off