ST60 Calibration and Settings - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 10-30-2013, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me be the first , possibly, to have a place were users can share tips on calibrating the ST60. My tv currently only has 20hrs on it. It's not quite ready for a calibration. I know sharing settings will only get you so close or even further out then the default out of box settings . I am coming from a calibrated D6500 samsung. The ST60 has a lot of pop when compared to the D6500 and the blacks are a lot darker. Blacks on the D6500 were 0.015ftL, pretty grey looking and contrast was 1700 ansi not too mention the floating blacks. Man I do not miss them smile.gif
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post #2 of 71 Old 10-30-2013, 09:43 PM
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Greetings

Of course the statistics say that a person has a less than 4% chance of bettering their image compared to the stock Cinema settings. And of course that means they have a greater than 96% chance of ending up no better than where they started or worse than stock.

It's all a moot point if said person also has no intention of verifying if those copied numbers actually gave him a better result. (Catch 22 of course ... if you can verify ... then why would you copy settings in the first place.) That said, since verification is not a part of the copying equation, then it just comes down to picking something that a person happens to "like" ... which has nothing to do with what calibration is actually about. Which also means that such activity would not belong in a "calibration" forum, but a copy settings forum. smile.gif

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post #3 of 71 Old 10-30-2013, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Let me be the first , possibly, to have a place were users can share tips on calibrating the ST60. My tv currently only has 20hrs on it. It's not quite ready for a calibration. I know sharing settings will only get you so close or even further out then the default out of box settings . I am coming from a calibrated D6500 samsung. The ST60 has a lot of pop when compared to the D6500 and the blacks are a lot darker. Blacks on the D6500 were 0.015ftL, pretty grey looking and contrast was 1700 ansi not too mention the floating blacks. Man I do not miss them smile.gif
Please move your discussion of sharing settings to the 'Plasma Flat Panel Displays' section of the forum. Other owners of your make and model of TV may be interested in such a topic, but not anyone pursuing genuine calibration.
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post #4 of 71 Old 10-31-2013, 08:43 AM
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The OP is looking for a place to share tips on calibrating the ST60, not for sharing settings. Things like what levels to target for gamut calibration or what size/type of patterns to use for calibration.
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post #5 of 71 Old 10-31-2013, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That is correct. Not looking for settings. Since I mentioned that I know it's more then a crap shoot with Micheal Chen backing that up with actual number, thanks Mike smile.gif Tips on how to go about calibrating this particular set, what patterns to use and what's the best combination of color patterns etc. ex: 75/75 or 100/100 and 75/100. Luminance and Saturatio being the second thing.
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post #6 of 71 Old 10-31-2013, 06:22 PM
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A long time ago, in a galaxy where we live...

It is a period of TV calibration. Certified
Calibrators, stating with absolute
certainty, have won the first victory
against the evil Uncertified Unwashed.

During the battle, Certified Calibrators
managed to display their ultimate
weapon, the Spectometer, an expensive
device with enough accuracy to intimidate
even the most capable Uncertified Unwashed.

Persued by the Uncertified Unwashed and their
newly acquired inexpensive and accurate colorimeters
and spectrometers, the Certified Calibrtators responded
with a new tactic, that is, perfect calibration reports are
meaningless and only Certified Calibrators know the secret...

smile.gif
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post #7 of 71 Old 10-31-2013, 06:47 PM
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lol

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post #8 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

A long time ago, in a galaxy where we live...

It is a period of TV calibration. Certified
Calibrators, stating with absolute
certainty, have won the first victory
against the evil Uncertified Unwashed.

During the battle, Certified Calibrators
managed to display their ultimate
weapon, the Spectometer, an expensive
device with enough accuracy to intimidate
even the most capable Uncertified Unwashed.

Persued by the Uncertified Unwashed and their
newly acquired inexpensive and accurate colorimeters
and spectrometers, the Certified Calibrtators responded
with a new tactic, that is, perfect calibration reports are
meaningless and only Certified Calibrators know the secret...

smile.gif

Touche

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post #9 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 09:47 AM
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To paraphrase a line from one of my all-time favorites.
Quote:
"Certificates? We ain't got no certificates. We don't need no certificates! I don't have to show you any stinkin' certificates!"
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post #10 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

To paraphrase a line from one of my all-time favorites.

LOL

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post #11 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 02:05 PM
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Greetings

While appreciating the humor ... I would never say that certified people are the only ones that can do this ... since they don't teach people in ISF classes about how graphs don't always tell the full picture. This stuff just comes from experience and having a piece of paper has nothing to do with it. The sales pitch in the class is more of buying $10000+ in gear and you will make so so much money as a result ... your phone will be ringing off the hook because you are on the ISF website. (Reality does not quite happen like that. People only learn that they were taken for a ride ... after they were taken for a ride. )

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post #12 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 02:19 PM
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Michael,

I'm glad that you agree that certified people are not the only ones that can correctly perform calibrations and interpret the data. Those of us in the scientific and engineering communities with decades of experience are a bit tired of being told that we are less capable than those that spend a few thousand dollars and a few days training to get a certificate.

Please let us stop this "I am a certified calibrator and you are a dolt" attitude. (I'm not singling you out or saying that you are guilty in doing this.) It will really help this forum and maybe permit some non-technical people to overcome the intimidation and join in. smile.gif

Larry
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post #13 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Michael,

I'm glad that you agree that certified people are not the only ones that can correctly perform calibrations and interpret the data. Those of us in the scientific and engineering communities with decades of experience are a bit tired of being told that we are less capable than those that spend a few thousand dollars and a few days training to get a certificate.

Please let us stop this "I am a certified calibrator and you are a dolt" attitude. (I'm not singling you out or saying that you are guilty in doing this.) It will really help this forum and maybe permit some non-technical people to overcome the intimidation and join in. smile.gif

Larry
Please provide documentation for your observations and claims. So far none has been provided, just attempts at cynical/sarcastic humor, and/or vague references to belittling behavior. A little scientific method would help support such complaints.
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post #14 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 08:07 PM
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Please provide documentation for your observations and claims. So far none has been provided, just attempts at cynical/sarcastic humor, and/or vague references to belittling behavior. A little scientific method would help support such complaints.


Oh, my. Such a gentle jab punctured some thin skin. smile.gif

No, I will not fall into your trap and make this all about me. I'll simply use this thread as evidence. The OP is a somewhat experienced calibrator. (No, I don't expect you to know this.) He clearly asked about techniques and tips concerning the calibration of a specific model TV. The first two responses read in sequence (and paraphrased by me) say -- 'we don't copy settings and get out of here, dummy'.

Not very helpful, a bit brash, and quite uninviting.


Bye, bye,
Larry
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post #15 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 08:14 PM
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post #16 of 71 Old 11-01-2013, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Please provide documentation for your observations and claims. So far none has been provided, just attempts at cynical/sarcastic humor, and/or vague references to belittling behavior. A little scientific method would help support such complaints.


Oh, my. Such a gentle jab punctured some thin skin. smile.gif

No, I will not fall into your trap and make this all about me. I'll simply use this thread as evidence. The OP is a somewhat experienced calibrator. (No, I don't expect you to know this.) He clearly asked about techniques and tips concerning the calibration of a specific model TV. The first two responses read in sequence (and paraphrased by me) say -- 'we don't copy settings and get out of here, dummy'.

Not very helpful, a bit brash, and quite uninviting.


Bye, bye,
Larry
An inartful dodge may satisfy you, but your dominant accusation was:

"Persued by the Uncertified Unwashed and their
newly acquired inexpensive and accurate colorimeters
and spectrometers, the Certified Calibrtators responded
with a new tactic, that is, perfect calibration reports are
meaningless and only Certified Calibrators know the secret..."

Precise documented evidence of actual statements from "Cerified Calibrators" supporting your point, rather than "paraphrases" dealing with unrelated topics, please. This is not a trap, unless you have no concrete examples. Then you would be caught in a trap of your own making.
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post #17 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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This is getting far off topic guys... I took a reading with my id3pro and Chromapure . Cinema Mode default settings, 50ST60 .I only have 20 some hours on this set . Using GCD calibration disk and 10 % regular windows gamma was 2.08 avg and Greyscale had a CIE94 average of 8.9. Through out the stimulus range it was way too red and blue as well as not enough green. What is the best ideal choice of patterns to use for calibrating the Greyscale/Gamma and the Color .Color at 75/75 or 75/100 or 100/100? Any tips on calibrating the ST60?
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post #18 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 12:39 PM
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IMHO, 10% windows or 10% window/22% APL patterns, and 75A/75S patterns.
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post #19 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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The calibration controls for the Panasonic's I am not familiar with. I know that it's a RGB +G system . Is there a different way of approaching the calibration process compared to a Samsung? or just when it comes to Calibrating the Greyscale and Gamma? . I am coming from a D6500.
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post #20 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 02:02 PM
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hungro, ask the question to david mackenzie hdtvest, you can look at his review to find some tips.
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post #21 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 02:14 PM
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Hungro,

I'm glad you started this thread. My ST60 will be delivered this coming week. I have recently upgraded from an i one display LT with HCFR to the iD3 pro with Calman. I've been practicing using the new meter and software on my old LG PK550 in anticipation of the ST60. Will look forward to your (and others) thoughts and insights.
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post #22 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

The calibration controls for the Panasonic's I am not familiar with. I know that it's a RGB +G system . Is there a different way of approaching the calibration process compared to a Samsung? or just when it comes to Calibrating the Greyscale and Gamma? . I am coming from a D6500.

Hungro,

The major calibration differences between your Samsung D model and your Panasonic ST are:

1) the Panasonic 10 point W/B controls, unlike the Samsung, do not change affected areas depending on the setting of the Contrast setting,

2) there is an interaction between the 10 point W/B controls and the 10 point gamma controls although this may become less of a problem as the set ages, and

3) you'll have to spend much time in getting the flesh tones to look as good as those on the Samsung -- the Panasonic has no controls for the secondary colors.



Rahzel has covered the patterns that should be used although zoyd probably would say to use only the APL ones. For the ST, I would pay attention to the special color patterns that are on the GCD and Masciola's disks.


Larry
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post #23 of 71 Old 11-02-2013, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

This is getting far off topic guys... I took a reading with my id3pro and Chromapure . Cinema Mode default settings, 50ST60 .I only have 20 some hours on this set . Using GCD calibration disk and 10 % regular windows gamma was 2.08 avg and Greyscale had a CIE94 average of 8.9. Through out the stimulus range it was way too red and blue as well as not enough green. What is the best ideal choice of patterns to use for calibrating the Greyscale/Gamma and the Color .Color at 75/75 or 75/100 or 100/100? Any tips on calibrating the ST60?

my S60 is very close to D65 in Cinema mode (defaults), gamut is very close to Rec. 709 too (I had some issues with meter profiling so I used the i1pro spectro directly for grayscale and gamut)

gamma is too bright by default and needs the 2.4 setting for actual 2.2-2.25 gamma (I'm currently using 2.6 for an actual 2.35-2.40 (avg) gamma... though it's 2.20 at 5% gray)

I'm using standard 10% windows for everything.
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post #24 of 71 Old 11-03-2013, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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My Gamma setting is at 2.6 which gave me a avg gamma of 2.23 but I only did a 2 point calibration. I noticed that on the black clipping pattern there is a lot of red in the 17 bar all the way up to the last bar. I have not done a 10point white balance or gamma calibration on this set. The tv will probably drift out of the calibration that i performed thus far as it has barely 20 some hours on it.

I noticed you mentioning that you have red in the black clipping pattern as well. Was this after you did a full calibration? is it noticeable in dark scenes meaning any red tinting visible? With just the two point calibration I must mention that the set looks a lot better then factory with the proper gamma setting and contrast and brightness.

I brought down my DE in the greyscale to an avg of 2.1 from the default 8.9 avg, however I would like to mention that 10% stimulus is at a de of 6.6 , the rgb graph showing mainly too much red and blu. Could be why I am seeing in the black clipping pattern all that red. It's probably pushing red down to 5 % black and below. Just a guess. This might get all cleaned up with a full calibration.
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post #25 of 71 Old 11-03-2013, 11:33 AM
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The red near black might lessen as you put more hours on your panel. If it's still there after ~300hrs and the 10% control don't help, you might want to lower Red in the low end a bit with the 2pt controls if it's very noticeably red near black. Or maybe even try using Warm1 instead of Warm2 (assuming you started on Warm2).
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post #26 of 71 Old 11-03-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

My Gamma setting is at 2.6 which gave me a avg gamma of 2.23 but I only did a 2 point calibration. I noticed that on the black clipping pattern there is a lot of red in the 17 bar all the way up to the last bar. I have not done a 10point white balance or gamma calibration on this set. The tv will probably drift out of the calibration that i performed thus far as it has barely 20 some hours on it.

I noticed you mentioning that you have red in the black clipping pattern as well. Was this after you did a full calibration? is it noticeable in dark scenes meaning any red tinting visible? With just the two point calibration I must mention that the set looks a lot better then factory with the proper gamma setting and contrast and brightness.

I brought down my DE in the greyscale to an avg of 2.1 from the default 8.9 avg, however I would like to mention that 10% stimulus is at a de of 6.6 , the rgb graph showing mainly too much red and blu. Could be why I am seeing in the black clipping pattern all that red. It's probably pushing red down to 5 % black and below. Just a guess. This might get all cleaned up with a full calibration.

Hello, Try to reset your RGB Balance Controls and check if you see that red tint to your near black bars.

Sometimes the display controls are not working perfectly and they introduce new problems.

Some settings have a safe range that are working better. wink.gif

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post #27 of 71 Old 11-03-2013, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

My Gamma setting is at 2.6 which gave me a avg gamma of 2.23 but I only did a 2 point calibration. I noticed that on the black clipping pattern there is a lot of red in the 17 bar all the way up to the last bar. I have not done a 10point white balance or gamma calibration on this set. The tv will probably drift out of the calibration that i performed thus far as it has barely 20 some hours on it.

I noticed you mentioning that you have red in the black clipping pattern as well. Was this after you did a full calibration? is it noticeable in dark scenes meaning any red tinting visible? With just the two point calibration I must mention that the set looks a lot better then factory with the proper gamma setting and contrast and brightness.

I brought down my DE in the greyscale to an avg of 2.1 from the default 8.9 avg, however I would like to mention that 10% stimulus is at a de of 6.6 , the rgb graph showing mainly too much red and blu. Could be why I am seeing in the black clipping pattern all that red. It's probably pushing red down to 5 % black and below. Just a guess. This might get all cleaned up with a full calibration.

I currently have my low end controls all at the default zero with only tiny changes to the high red and blue controls. The 17 bar is all red (and very dark for that matter) with these white balance settings. This happens with "2.6" gamma but not "2.4" gamma. I had 330 hours the last time I checked this.

No, I don't see any red tint to shadows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

The red near black might lessen as you put more hours on your panel. If it's still there after ~300hrs and the 10% control don't help, you might want to lower Red in the low end a bit with the 2pt controls if it's very noticeably red near black. Or maybe even try using Warm1 instead of Warm2 (assuming you started on Warm2).

I don't have 10-pt grayscale or gamma controls on the S60, just two point grayscale and gamma presets. It's only 17 that's red and since I don't see it with actual program material, I haven't chosen to lower the low red control. I have about 350 hours right now and 330 hours the last time I checked my calibration. Warm2 is near perfect D65 by default on my set, so choosing Warm1 would be less than ideal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Hello, Try to reset your RGB Balance Controls and check if you see that red tint to your near black bars.

Sometimes the display controls are not working perfectly and they introduce new problems.

Some settings have a safe range that are working better. wink.gif

I tried that but noticed zero difference. I did, however, leave the low red and low blue (and low green) controls all at default since the last time I mentioned the red tinting in the black clipping pattern (with prior settings both 17 and 18 were all red).
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post #28 of 71 Old 11-04-2013, 07:26 AM
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how common is color banding on plasmas? such as with a continuous gray ramp?

or banding on red, green, or blue continuous ramps?


I ask because my S60 shows quite of a lot of it on test patterns like those found in the Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition BD. With actual content, I can see it sometimes but not others.
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post #29 of 71 Old 11-05-2013, 07:06 PM
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Low budget Samsung banding is not too bad.on the various screens once in a while you see some very slight colors if your looking for it..very slight pink clouds.Color bars with color turned to zero not a problem.its not anywhere close too the issue that abl is.Color banding is slightly there but not any kind of issue on mine....I only have 2 point on my tv.

Edit I have noticed the colors have drifted a little on mine.seeing more pink/magenta in the clouds .I wonder if it's because I'm continuously fiddling with the picture controls on the tv and recently been trying different settings on the box.
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post #30 of 71 Old 11-12-2013, 05:41 AM
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I have the 50ST60 and have recently upgraded to an i one display pro with Calman 5 basic.

I have never calibrated a TV that offers a 10 pt gamma adjustment. I have the GetGray, AVS HD, and DVE discs for calibration.
How does one go about setting this?




Edit: Used my HCFR and figured it out. Pretty cool! Kinda a back and forth thing between 10pt w/b and 10pt gamma. Very impressive results though. Had to use the 2.6 gamma setting. Ended with a 2.25 avg. I can see why people are seeing a red cast in the low IRE range. There's a big red push and low gamma in them.
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Reply Display Calibration

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