Free Test Patterns to Check for White Crush at Higher APL's on Plasma (5% step grayscale with larger than 12% APL patterns)? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 11-12-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I know there are many free pattern discs or other formats like .mp4 files, especially for plasma calibration. I have found that my S60 plasma seems to show a severe dropoff in top end gamma (especially 95%) when the Contrast in Cinema mode, PB Mid, is turned up past the default 85, but this only occurs with larger APL patterns, like 12% (it doesn't occur with 10% APL, I've checked). I'm wondering if there are 13%, 14%, or larger (fixed APL) patterns available for grayscale (21-point, 5% steps) on any of the free pattern discs/files available on this forum.

It has to be APL, not standard, since I want to measure on-screen gamma (factor out ABL).

It should have 5% steps, so I can look at 95% stim.

It should be larger than 12% of total screen area, since I already have 12% APL on CMD HD and 10% APL on GCD.


I basically trying to find the brightest contrast setting that doesn't crush whites/highlight details with moderate to high APL content. Standard windows are misleading for this, since they are affected by ABL, especially at the higher stim levels (near white). I can get 50 fL max light output in Cinema mode (with contrast 90 or higher and 10% standard windows), but only 40 fL with default contrast (85). To be fair, I'm not just looking at 95% stim, but basically every level 75% stim and above (75, 80, 85, 90, 95).
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post #2 of 38 Old 11-12-2013, 04:18 PM
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If you are able to set your video card to full range over hdmi you could use the HCFR pattern generator "near white" sequence to do this test. This will output patterns in 1% increments (as many as you want) starting at 100% (level 235) - # of patterns. The patterns can also be set to any area with any level of background stimulus. You'll also need to load a linear calibration to the video card if you want to measure the correct display white balance.
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post #3 of 38 Old 11-12-2013, 06:28 PM
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I just did this test because I was curious. There was no significant deviation from the desired transfer function until I hit about 20% area patterns which start to roll off above 95% input level. By 24% you can see significant luminance roll-off at about 92% input level.

If you look at the gamma graph when you do this it gets pretty noisy above 90% due to the ratio of small numbers so I prefer to look at the luminance graph instead. Plotted is the %Luminance vs. %Stimulus. All window sizes are on a 22% fixed background. Even with the drop in output using the 24% size the white balance errors remained under 2 dE2000.

Note that luminance values above the straight line mean the display is reaching peak output before it should (lower effective gamma) due to the decrease in peak luminance.

15% Area

18% Area

20% Area

22% Area

24% Area
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post #4 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I know there are many free pattern discs or other formats like .mp4 files, especially for plasma calibration. I have found that my S60 plasma seems to show a severe dropoff in top end gamma (especially 95%) when the Contrast in Cinema mode, PB Mid, is turned up past the default 85, but this only occurs with larger APL patterns, like 12% (it doesn't occur with 10% APL, I've checked).
Hmm, if the pattern in use in not a contant energy pattern then you have some fluctuation that can cause the ABL circuits to cut in when you get to the highest IREs. That could also be an explanation to the drop-off in gamma.
And just to clear out ny misunderstanding, when saying drop-off. If the gamma decreases, then luma has actually increased from what it should be.

I tend to find my clipping point by using constant measurements and increase contrast until color balance gets off. That seems to be working fine. But I am not sure that covers all possible problems such as CMS and gamma nonlinearities.
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post #5 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

And just to clear out ny misunderstanding, when saying drop-off. If the gamma decreases, then luma has actually increased from what it should be.

Think of gamma as a ratio, there are two ways gamma can go down at a particular video level, either the luminance goes up or the peak luminance goes down. We are discussing the later case.
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post #6 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Think of gamma as a ratio, there are two ways gamma can go down at a particular video level, either the luminance goes up or the peak luminance goes down. We are discussing the later case.
You are correct. Didn't think of that.
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post #7 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I know there are many free pattern discs or other formats like .mp4 files, especially for plasma calibration. I have found that my S60 plasma seems to show a severe dropoff in top end gamma (especially 95%) when the Contrast in Cinema mode, PB Mid, is turned up past the default 85, but this only occurs with larger APL patterns, like 12% (it doesn't occur with 10% APL, I've checked). I'm wondering if there are 13%, 14%, or larger (fixed APL) patterns available for grayscale (21-point, 5% steps) on any of the free pattern discs/files available on this forum.

It has to be APL, not standard, since I want to measure on-screen gamma (factor out ABL).

It should have 5% steps, so I can look at 95% stim.

It should be larger than 12% of total screen area, since I already have 12% APL on CMD HD and 10% APL on GCD.


I basically trying to find the brightest contrast setting that doesn't crush whites/highlight details with moderate to high APL content. Standard windows are misleading for this, since they are affected by ABL, especially at the higher stim levels (near white). I can get 50 fL max light output in Cinema mode (with contrast 90 or higher and 10% standard windows), but only 40 fL with default contrast (85). To be fair, I'm not just looking at 95% stim, but basically every level 75% stim and above (75, 80, 85, 90, 95).

Zoom or overscan function?

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post #8 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Think of gamma as a ratio, there are two ways gamma can go down at a particular video level, either the luminance goes up or the peak luminance goes down. We are discussing the later case.

to be clear, I'm referring to a drop off in point gamma

for example with contrast 90, and 12% APL windows, gamma at 95% was 0.8 (target was 2.4 in that case)
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post #9 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

to be clear, I'm referring to a drop off in point gamma

for example with contrast 90, and 12% APL windows, gamma at 95% was 0.8 (target was 2.4 in that case)

That's a big drop - presumably you took a 100% measurement also?

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post #10 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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my question still stands: are there are larger than 12% APL patterns in 5% (or finer near white) increments for use in a BD player/PS3?

using my laptop as a pattern generator seems likely to cause issues and I'm not sure the zoom or overscan function is the best choice either
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post #11 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

That's a big drop - presumably you took a 100% measurement also?

yes, I did a series read in CalMAN 5 (21-points)

I have since changed overall gamma to 2.2 and I can post 21-step grayscale readings using the 12% APL windows on your disc for Contrast 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 (after 90 the image stops getting brighter with this pattern size).
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post #12 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

my question still stands: are there are larger than 12% APL patterns in 5% (or finer near white) increments for use in a BD player/PS3?

using my laptop as a pattern generator seems likely to cause issues and I'm not sure the zoom or overscan function is the best choice either

Other than the overscan or zoom (which may I note I have tried with no notable issues) im not sure.

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post #13 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the 21-pt readings using the CMD HD Disc's 12% APL patterns. I measured gamma (and deltaL) for Contrast 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, and 85 again (to account for meter drift). Target gamma is 2.26, because the initial read with 85 was 2.27 and the final read with 85 was 2.25. Let me know which Contrast setting appears best in terms of visible gamma errors while maximizing light output at 100% white. The C6 was unprofiled for these readings, so ignore the grayscale color readings.

















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post #14 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I think 88 is the highest setting before the deltaL's get much higher for the last third of the grayscale. I took more measurements just to be 100% sure:


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post #15 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I think 88 is the highest setting before the deltaL's get much higher for the last third of the grayscale. I took more measurements just to be 100% sure:



Have you tryed to use CalMAN 5 Dynamic Range workflow page using the Dynamic Range Chapter of the Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk you got?

If you tryed it, what Contrast Setting gave you the most linear curve of your near reference white of your display?

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Have you tryed to use CalMAN 5 Dynamic Range workflow page using the Dynamic Range Chapter of the Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk you got?

If you tryed it, what Contrast Setting gave you the most linear curve of your near reference white of your display?

I'm using the 12% APL patterns on the CMD HD Disc for this since this behavior doesn't occur with smaller pattern sizes like 10% or 11% and I need to use a fixed APL pattern to make sure the gamma numbers at the top end are not affected by ABL.
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post #17 of 38 Old 11-18-2013, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I did some more tests using fixed APL patterns of various sizes/types...

Contrast is at 100 in Cinema mode, PB Mid:












Note that I've included 11 and 21 point grayscale reads from Ted's disc just for comparison purposes (since those are the patterns I use for actual calibration).
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post #18 of 38 Old 11-18-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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What I've found is that only the 12% APL patterns show the undesirable gamma behavior in the top third of the grayscale... lower and higher (fixed APL) patterns don't show any such effects, even with contrast turned up to max (100).
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post #19 of 38 Old 11-19-2013, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone know why the 12% APL patterns are off but larger and smaller ones are not? Is this odd behavior on the display or are the patterns off somehow (either from the download/decompression/burning process or an issue with the RGB triplets in the source file)?
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post #20 of 38 Old 11-19-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Anyone know why the 12% APL patterns are off but larger and smaller ones are not? Is this odd behavior on the display or are the patterns off somehow (either from the download/decompression/burning process or an issue with the RGB triplets in the source file)?

I've checked the triplets in Photoshop is evening and all seems ok. I'll do a run tomorrow and compare.

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VT30 default gamma settings, contrast mid, ISF mode



Photoshop .tga file 12% APL. Window triplet 213, 213, 213


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Contrast max, gamma default.

12aplcontrastmax_zps7c0f38a4.jpg

eek.gif

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post #23 of 38 Old 11-20-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Anyone know why the 12% APL patterns are off but larger and smaller ones are not? Is this odd behavior on the display or are the patterns off somehow (either from the download/decompression/burning process or an issue with the RGB triplets in the source file)?

Perhaps your settings in combo with that pattern type are pushing the limits with the ABL really kicking in. Hence the similarity to a full field graph.

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post #24 of 38 Old 11-20-2013, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Perhaps your settings in combo with that pattern type are pushing the limits with the ABL really kicking in. Hence the similarity to a full field graph.

Well, higher fixed APL patterns like the APL Large patterns on the AVS disc and the Equal Energy Windows on the Spears and Munsil disc don't do this (and by looking at the 100% white reading, I can see that they are engaging the ABL a lot more so than the 12% APL windows on the CMD disc).
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Well, higher fixed APL patterns like the APL Large patterns on the AVS disc and the Equal Energy Windows on the Spears and Munsil disc don't do this (and by looking at the 100% white reading, I can see that they are engaging the ABL a lot more so than the 12% APL windows on the CMD disc).

The AVS disk Large APLs are entirely different (not seen the S&M ones) since they don't engage the entire display unlike these larger APL patterns, which is why I made the similarity with full fields. Anyways something isn't right, the patterns check out fine, so other than a skewed dynamic range or the patterns are behaving in the same way as full fields, I cannot help.

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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

The AVS disk Large APLs are entirely different (not seen the S&M ones) since they don't engage the entire display unlike these larger APL patterns, which is why I made the similarity with full fields. Anyways something isn't right, the patterns check out fine, so other than a skewed dynamic range or the patterns are behaving in the same way as full fields, I cannot help.

thanks, anyway

since I don't see any issues with all the other APL pattern types/sizes I have at my disposal, I'm going to leave contrast at 100 and get every last nit of brightness this set has
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post #27 of 38 Old 11-25-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

The AVS disk Large APLs are entirely different (not seen the S&M ones) since they don't engage the entire display unlike these larger APL patterns, which is why I made the similarity with full fields. Anyways something isn't right, the patterns check out fine, so other than a skewed dynamic range or the patterns are behaving in the same way as full fields, I cannot help.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Those patterns are definitely engaging ABL more since peak light output is much lower with them vs. 12% APL.
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post #28 of 38 Old 11-25-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Those patterns are definitely engaging ABL more since peak light output is much lower with them vs. 12% APL.

What I mean is that the 12% APL on the disk are showing, in your case, similarity to a full field gs run in terms how your gamma curve looks.

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post #29 of 38 Old 11-25-2013, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

What I mean is that the 12% APL on the disk are showing, in your case, similarity to a full field gs run in terms how your gamma curve looks.

could be (though I don't understand why), since measuring gamma with full fields looks terrible (due to ABL)

the 7.5% APL windows are fine, though, as are the 10% APL windows on the GCD disk
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post #30 of 38 Old 11-26-2013, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

could be (though I don't understand why), since measuring gamma with full fields looks terrible (due to ABL)

the 7.5% APL windows are fine, though, as are the 10% APL windows on the GCD disk

The central area is larger on the 12% APL than either of the two other pattern sizes. Could be that this pattern is right on the limit (on your display) up to a certain point in contrast before it starts to exhibit full field pattern type behaviour.

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