Geek Squad just calibrated my TV, Does my Gamut Luminance numbers look acceptable? It seems off. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 11-15-2013, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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So the Geek Squad guy just finished calibrating my TV, took him a good 30 - 45 min. I don't know much about calibration but started reading about it. From what I have recently learned the Gamut Luminance graph(middle right graph) shows how close your calibrated colors are to the suggested(grey bars). Is mine acceptable? It looks off.


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post #2 of 23 Old 11-15-2013, 02:31 PM
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Greetings

Spin the big wheel ...

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/05/ravings-of-a-mad-man-inside-the-big-box-store/

an article about the state of BB calibration.

Even the few good ones say you have a 1 in 10 chance of getting someone that knows what they are doing. Imagine if our car mechanics were like that ...

They also don't really get trained to do color and don't have the right gear to be doing it anyway.

Too bad graphs don't tell the whole story. Create a perfect graph with measuring devices that may be inherently flawed ... and what do you end up with? (Not a proper image.)

It would be useful to identify the TV in question here.

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post #3 of 23 Old 11-15-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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TV is Vizio M Series 70 inch

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/m-series-razor-led-70-class-69-1-2-diag--led-1080p-240hz-smart-3d-hdtv/9365059.p?id=1219014150019&skuId=9365059&st=vizio%20m%20series&cp=1&lp=6

Is it reasonable for me to ask for a rework? or could this be a limitation of the tv? The Geek Squad guy said he has $10k worth of equipment, it sounds like he has the proper tools.
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post #4 of 23 Old 11-15-2013, 07:37 PM
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Greetings

The bulk of the cost is in that $6000 signal generator. The meter he used ... depending on age ... might have been $5K at the time ... but is about $150 today in accuracy. A $250 meter beats that old one they used. Yeah it cost $5000 all right, but my first generation VHS player cost $1200 at the time too. (Don't let the fact that a $26 DVD player beats it in picture quality concern you. Concentrate on the $1200 price tag.)

It won't help if you call them back ... unless you want to buy new gear for them to use.

And of course a graph only shows you a sliver of what happens in a calibration. If you get the other 70%+ wrong ... getting a perfect 30% on an exam does not amount to much. You failed.

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post #5 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 06:20 AM
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I think the standard gear for Geek Squad is the Chroma 5 meter and Sencore VP403 generator. The C5 is older technology, and was not even that accurate on it's own when new. I know first hand, because I own a C5e (the "enhanced" version). It is sitting at home with other retired calibration equipment. The VP403 only puts out RGB color space and sometimes results in incorrect video levels. I owned one briefly, but found that limitation could result in serious errors and oversights.

Your graphs also show some problems in the gamma graph, possibly white crush.
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post #6 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 06:22 AM
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I feel differently about this, probably due to the fact that I used to work for Magnolia Home Theater. You can always call back and request a second calibration. You have 30 days to do this. Tell then you called a hdguru or payed to have a isf technician look at their work and that it is off. This works everytime. Good luck.

Ps: have them put in the notes what tv you have, that way it ensures the proper equipment is used and not the old outdated gear.
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post #7 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 06:57 AM
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The max Y value is 204 cd/m2. It should be 100-120 with 120 being approximately 35 fL. More is okay for a day time setting but very hard on the eyes if watching in a darkened environment.

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post #8 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 07:22 AM
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The black level must be awful. 2.0 gamma for 30% greyscale. 1.0 for 90%, that sounds nasty.
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post #9 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 08:59 AM
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I wouldnt say it would look nasty...but really more of for a bright room mode.

the plateau on the gamma curve is indicative of white clipping which is why the gamma # on 90% is around 1.

I recently did a 80 inch ish Vizio, when the contrast / light output was set for a reasonable level, the gamma was quite decent. However, i would not in way trust these CMS values as being indicative of an accurate color gamut. The RBGCMY values are not linear on this display, and when I mated the Vizio with a DVDO DUO and focused on 75% / 75% the display performed much better.

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post #10 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 09:01 AM
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The future's so bright I gotta wear shades ;-)

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post #11 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 02:57 PM
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Read the notes at the top. Press the little yellow box to bring them up.

BB vs Buzz CalibrationSummaryDetailed_AVS_NoteAdded.pdf 450k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf BB vs Buzz CalibrationSummaryDetailed_AVS_NoteAdded.pdf (450.5 KB, 52 views)

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post #12 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 05:07 PM
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So the bottom line is... your TV may not allow you to make color luminance any better or it might have the appropriate controls that work correctly. No way for you to know without your own calibration skills unless someone in the owner' thread for your TV has done a calibration on their TV of the same or similar model and can tell you whether the TV has controls that can make color luminance better... but your gamma is whacked too so you need quite a number of things revisited before you'll have a good calibration.

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post #13 of 23 Old 11-16-2013, 07:37 PM
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I did not read where you said the pic was bad only that the chart is saying it is off.
the lat M series I saw was 3 years agoo and it was a nice performing tv.
had a 2 pt grey scale in the user menu, came with a decent factory cal.

did you ask the calibrator to MAX the light output?
that is some bright numbers.
you can see where it runs out of headroom as the luminance increases.

1.9 must be 2.2 at 10% then at 60% it starts taking a nose dive as it runs out of unclipping white.

could be ok for your room, if it is like being in the back yard.

Loving D65
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post #14 of 23 Old 11-17-2013, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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After reading what you guys have been saying about BB TV calibration and from what I have noticed. I will probably not be calling BB for a recalibration. The guy was sitting crossed legged on the floor with his hand over his head pointing the remote at the TV above his head the entire calibration process. I would guess you probably should be looking at the screen eye level when calibrating.

I told the Geek Squad guy, I watch in the evening with dim lights. So I had the blinds closed to somewhat simulate the ambient lighting. It was dim enough that you can barely make out words on a book. The fact that he still calibrated my TV for a bright room probably means he isn't well trained.

Will I be able to further calibrate the screen using something like Disney WOW? All the controls accessible from the TV menu are below. I'm also toying with the idea of learning to calibrate myself. What do you guys think of this bundle? http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman5-bundles/calman-5-basic-with-i1-display-pro-bundle.html Thanks.

Controls accessible from the TV menu
Backlight: 59
Brightness: 58
Contrast: 73
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 32
Low Red: 122
Low Green: 123
Low Blue: 126
High Red: 132
High Blue: 75
High Green: 120
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post #15 of 23 Old 11-17-2013, 02:01 PM
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Greetings

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/03/poor-tv-picture-quality-not-happy/

Read this article now that you figure you want to do more to your image than what the BB guy gave you. And it's hard to tell what you get since they may not even be trained properly to do this.

The summary is :

1. Get a test disc and follow the instructions. Which you are now wanting to do.

2. Get hardware and software and a test disc and teach yourself how to do this. Likely take up to a year to figure it out ... and you might get it right ... or not.

3. Hire a better professional to do it. Way better experience and better test gear.

4. Get hardware and software ... and get professional level training to bypass that 1 year learning curve. Get down to business faster ... (Training costs are $100 to $2000+ depending on where you look for it and more money does not mean better training. In fact the opposite may be true here.)

The software bundle you are looking at is good ... but be aware that hammers do not teach people to build houses. (And books on brain surgery do not teach you to be a doctor first.) No magical arms sprout from the computer to calibrate the TV just because you have hardware and software.


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post #16 of 23 Old 11-17-2013, 04:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flargosa View Post

After reading what you guys have been saying about BB TV calibration and from what I have noticed. I will probably not be calling BB for a recalibration. The guy was sitting crossed legged on the floor with his hand over his head pointing the remote at the TV above his head the entire calibration process. I would guess you probably should be looking at the screen eye level when calibrating.

I told the Geek Squad guy, I watch in the evening with dim lights. So I had the blinds closed to somewhat simulate the ambient lighting. It was dim enough that you can barely make out words on a book. The fact that he still calibrated my TV for a bright room probably means he isn't well trained.

Will I be able to further calibrate the screen using something like Disney WOW? All the controls accessible from the TV menu are below. I'm also toying with the idea of learning to calibrate myself. What do you guys think of this bundle? http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman5-bundles/calman-5-basic-with-i1-display-pro-bundle.html Thanks.

Controls accessible from the TV menu
Backlight: 59
Brightness: 58
Contrast: 73
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 32
Low Red: 122
Low Green: 123
Low Blue: 126
High Red: 132
High Blue: 75
High Green: 120

If you just want to calibrate your TV, spare yourself tens of hours and many brain cells, then just get a professional calibrator to get it done for you. It will cost you a bit more than the bundle you were looking for, but it will be worth it.

However, if you wish to learn something new and interesting and learn the skills to calibrate TVs you have now and the ones you will have in the future, then it is best to do it yourself!

That is an OK bundle, but you can do the same with completely free HCFR. A while back it stopped getting updated, but now development picked up and it will become far better than CalMAN in my opinion. I think it is easier to use and can do almost anything CalMAN can do. Both application would require knowledge of calibration, but that knowledge is right here on this forum! I own the same i1Display Pro, HCFR, and CalMAN Control edition. I wish I never bought CalMAN, it is far too expensive and the Basic edition is a rip off! CalMAN Enthusiast edition for home users and the Ultimate Edition (for business) are the only ones worth getting in my opinion.

Those controls are good enough to get part of the calibration done, but to get your colorspace adjusted, you will likely need to go into TV's service menu! Some folks advice newbies not go there, but I think that most of the time, if you do your research and ask before changing settings there, you will be fine. Do a search on these forums or Google for your TV model's service menu access, which usually requires pressing a combination of buttons to enter it. I would familiarize yourself with understanding user menu first and once you understand & get your contrast, brightness, luminance, gamma, and RGB white balance as accurate as possible then you can venture forth and start using service menus.

As a newbie, I learned that calibration may seem complicated and it can be. It takes a lot of time to learn and even more time to understand and calibrate your own TV. To learn how to calibrate all kinds of displays, projectors, etc. you will need professional training that I never got as I just want to learn how to calibrate my personal home equipment and make some bucks on the side.

I know for a fact that I can do better than BB guys did. I had a professional calibrator tell me that I calibrated my TV better than a pro calibrator would using the same equipment as I. Pro calibrators usually have much better equipment, but i1Display Pro + HCFR will deliver you a 90% good calibration if you keep on perfecting your adjustments and results. It is time consuming... It took me 1 week of every-day 16 hour calibrations, AVS posts, research, etc. But no book will deliver you as much knowledge as personal experience.

I find it to be very rewarding. I have a crappy 1850:1 CR LCD from 2009 and it looks waaaay better than 90% of uncalibrated TVs with much better CR. It is very rewarding. I am thinking of going further and learning to become a pro. I really like this. I am kind of an impatient as* on these forums though!
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post #17 of 23 Old 11-17-2013, 07:59 PM
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MonarchX, I see you are not a fan of CalMan, but what do you think about Chromapure? I've heard the HCFR workflow isn't the greatest, and Chromapure is better in leading you down the steps with good help files. Of course, many hours still need to be spent, but I was wondering if Chromapure would cut some of that time off vs. HCFR.
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post #18 of 23 Old 11-18-2013, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beezar View Post

MonarchX, I see you are not a fan of CalMan, but what do you think about Chromapure? I've heard the HCFR workflow isn't the greatest, and Chromapure is better in leading you down the steps with good help files. Of course, many hours still need to be spent, but I was wondering if Chromapure would cut some of that time off vs. HCFR.

HCFR, ChromaPure, and CalMAN will all get the job done. I have both CP Pro and CM Ultimate. For no nonsense display setup, Grayscale, Gamma, and Color Management System calibration I choose ChromaPure every time.
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post #19 of 23 Old 11-18-2013, 08:07 AM
 
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MonarchX, I see you are not a fan of CalMan, but what do you think about Chromapure? I've heard the HCFR workflow isn't the greatest, and Chromapure is better in leading you down the steps with good help files. Of course, many hours still need to be spent, but I was wondering if Chromapure would cut some of that time off vs. HCFR.

I never used ChromaPure but I did reviews on it and have experience with CalMAN. CalMAN gets the job done. The only issues with it are the learning curve and the cost. Navigation they use is utterly stupid. Figuring out the Source for patterns alone is just not self-explanatory like in other programs. If you want to go with workflows then go ahead with ChromaPure. I just do not find following the workflows all that good because you will need to go back and forth on all calibrations. It is important to know approximately what to start with and what to end with. HCFR does not really have workflows like ChromePure or CalMAN. Its all in one place and you can measure whatever you want without being forced to follow a specific workflow. I just think that before you spend more money, try HCFR. If you find it difficult, go with ChromaPure.
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post #20 of 23 Old 11-18-2013, 08:47 AM
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Greetings

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/03/software-cage-match-two-go-in-one-comes-out/

This article takes a look at how both Calman and Chromapure tend to stack up against each other. It gives you an idea about the strengths and weaknesses of each program.

I use both ... with a preference to Calman, but I also default to Chromapure almost half the time for issues relating to my Jeti Spectro. (If Calman lacked the ability to build customized workflows and layouts, I would be using CP most of the time.)

Regards
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post #21 of 23 Old 11-18-2013, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/03/software-cage-match-two-go-in-one-comes-out/

This article takes a look at how both Calman and Chromapure tend to stack up against each other. It gives you an idea about the strengths and weaknesses of each program.

I use both ... with a preference to Calman, but I also default to Chromapure almost half the time for issues relating to my Jeti Spectro. (If Calman lacked the ability to build customized workflows and layouts, I would be using CP most of the time.)

Regards

Don't you think they are both overpriced for someone who just wants to get their LCD or plasma TV calibrated? What do you think of HCFR? I used it along with CalMAN v5 and all readings, measurements, results, etc. were exactly the same.

HCFR also supports madVR. Have you taken a look at the thread about making near-perfect 3DLUT calibrations for madVR using FREE tools? Sure, it is only for HTPC use, but still - HCFR, ArgylCMS, dispcalGUI, madVR are all free and can literally provide you with the best possible results your HDTV needs. Sure, CalMAN and ChromaPure have nicer interface and several advanced functions, but for general LCD and plasma calibration that involves correcting RGB WB/Temp, luminance, gamma, colorspace saturation & hue, color checker, and even near-perfect 3DLUT creations for HTPC you do not need to spend a single penny (except for a colorimeter).

It makes more sense to use HCFR first to see if you can get everything in order and if not, then try ChromaPure...
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post #22 of 23 Old 11-18-2013, 02:07 PM
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Greetings

Is a doctor worth his time? Is a lawyer? ... An engineer ... a calibrator?

Worth is entirely relative. And at $200 for software ... that isn't that bad. Sure it should be free ... everything should be free ... everyone's time and effort is worth nothing.

If you don't think it is worth it, then do not buy it.

Eternal struggle of time versus money.

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post #23 of 23 Old 11-18-2013, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I am hoping to get my TV recalibrated by Geek Squad. I know they do not get much respect around here, due to their historical quality of work, but I figure maybe they will send in a better trained one and hopefully do a better job. I will post their 2nd calibration results here and hopefully the graphs will look better.

I just bought the Calman 5 basic and i1 Display pro bundle. Seems like something fun and geeky to learn on my 2nd tv. If I suck at it, at least I will have some level of understanding and hopefully know if the calibrator is giving me my money’s worth or not.
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