Using an iphone 5 to validate your calibration. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the issues I've had with calibrating my Panasonic 65VT50 plasma is that you don't have a reference to use to verify that your calibration is correct.

Lets face it. You can spend months learning this stuff, buy what should be fairly decent equipment, get some great looking charts and the picture doesn't look that good. You think that's the way its suppose to be because the chart says so.

Having a background in photography which included owning a studio with an in house color lab, I had a reference to check the color, contrast, etc by viewing typical subject matter as well as grayscale and McBeth color checker charts. At that time, it was called a Shirley. Now with digital photography, there is an equivalent referred to as a digital Shirley.

I thought there would be something similar for TV calibration but when I checked there wasn't.

So I went about finding a way to verify end results and found that the iphone 5 and newer is considered to have a display that's fairly accurate. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6334/iphone-5-screen-performance The ipod 5 and newer should be the same as they have the same screen.

I downloaded a digital Shirley to the iphone and also burn a copy of it onto a DVD to play in my Oppo BDP-95 bluray player.

Bring up both picture, zoom in and navigate around the image to make comparisons. There are a lot of comparisons that can be made but I'd focus on grayscale, McBeth color checker and complexions. Before anyone ask, your eye is far more sensitive in seeing differences but you have to have a reference to go by.

As much as I'd like to post the jpg of the digital Shirley, it's copyrighted. So you'll have to get it on your own by contacting a professional lab. In the meanwhile, if you already have an iphone/ipod 5 or newer and a reference bluray player, you might want to experiment with some people pictures.

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post #2 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 01:17 AM
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Very interesting idea. I just tried checking my color calibration with a couple of test images I've used from my photography days. I used my apple TV to mirror the image on my phone onto the screen. I should add, though this may be obvious, that's its important to calibrate the brightness of the phone to that of the TV. I personally found it easiest to do so by focusing on matching the brightness of the reds.

Here is a selection of free images I've used over the years that others may find useful:

Color checker from babel color: http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker.htm.
Printer test image: http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/printers/images/Test.jpg
Landscape version of above: http://www.dpreview.com/PrinterReviews/1107allinoneprinters/images/Testphoto.jpg
Another printer test image: http://www.inkjetcarts.us/support/assets/PDI_Target-DCPHiRes.jpg
Scanning test image: http://www.dpreview.com/PrinterReviews/1107allinoneprinters/images/Kodak-sRGB.jpg
Bill Atkinson's 28 balls: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ka35g3gtyd10823/iRGJexS5hA/Twenty-Eight%20Balls.tif.zip
Chad B likes this.

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post #3 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 08:50 AM
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One of the issues with plasma calibration (at least the current Panasonics) is that if you calibrate grayscale to D65 with 10%-12% standard windows, full fields (and large windows) will be visiblly more reddish/yellowish (basically blue deficient/warmer). So, ABL not just affects overall screen brightness but white balance too and so in that sense these plasmas will never be completely color accurate with all APLs at the same time (the best you can do is to calibrate for something resembling typical content (which is easier said than done, but medium sized standard windows like 11% is a good starting point)).
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post #4 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 04:45 PM
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Displaymate has an excellent series of articles on color accuracy of mobile devices. Take a look here http://www.displaymate.com/mobile.html.

The iphone 5 has good gamut, but they measure its color temperature to be 7,461 K which may be a tad too blue. Here is the review: http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_S4_ShootOut_1.htm. Other devices with accurate color include the Kindle fire HDX and ipad air. Here's a comparison between the two http://www.displaymate.com/Tablet_ShootOut_3.htm. Take away, if you happen to have the kindle or the ipad air, you can use those devices as well.

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post #5 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 05:34 PM
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Color temperature tells very little about how accurate a display device is. Images can have highly obvious excesses of green or magenta and still measure accurately in regards to color temperature. What you really want to know about the device is how close it's white point is to the D65 white standard (and shades of gray) for consumer video. And how close it's gamma is to the 2.2-2.3 range used by consumer video sources.

Also, if the display you want to use has a color gamut that is not accurate to the HDTV Rec. 709 standard for color, it's never going to be useful as a reference device.

So anything you want to use for a reference should have precisely the same characteristics as the display you are trying to calibrate... for consumer video displays, that means a white point of D65, a gamma in the 2.2 to 2.3 range, and at least the primary and complimentary colors should be accurate to standards set in the Rec 709 document. Chances of a hand-held portable device meeting those standards are pretty minimal.

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post #6 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 05:39 PM
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The latest review I posted measures gamma, gamut, and color accuracy relative to sRGB/rec.709.

Needless to say, these devices are not used to calibrate the display, but I found them useful as a "sanity check" on the final results.

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post #7 of 36 Old 11-18-2013, 06:26 PM
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Work permit- Do you know if those images are displaying 6500k/d65 or close?
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post #8 of 36 Old 11-19-2013, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Vic

From a photography standpoint, I dropped the 4th link into photoshop and took measurements of the grayscale pattern on the McBeth colorchecker. They read equal RGB across the range with only a 1 or 2 digit variance which is not likely to be visible.

Regardless as to how it was shot, it was probably color correct. After all, it's intended to be a reference.

It's clean enough to be able to make comparisons and for differences to stand out. If it had been done with 3200 kelvin and not daylight corrected, difference would be much harder to discern.

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post #9 of 36 Old 11-19-2013, 05:39 AM
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ok thanks Jim... I had too drop color control several notches down after lookng at those photos.
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post #10 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 04:54 AM
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Those pictures are way more blue and less red than warm2 setting which is close too 6500k on Samsung.
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post #11 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Vic

Without knowing more, it would seem that a warm color temperature setting is going to be more red and less blue. Very unlikely that it'll be D65.

Examining the grayscale in the 4th link WP provided, find the color temperature setting on your display that gets you a closer match and see how that looks.

Are you measuring the color temperature yourself or going based on what others have posted?

Which handheld device are you using?

Which display?

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post #12 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 04:22 PM
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While the iPhones are relatively well calibrated displays for consumer devices, the tolerances are not nearly strict enough to be using them as a reference device.
Phones in particular tend to have cooler color temperatures than they should because it makes them look brighter outdoors. iPads are generally better calibrated than iPhones in this regard, but are still too blue.
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post #13 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 04:34 PM
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I'm looking at those pictures and comparing it too various programs on tv, then making tv look the same.its a bit torchy, but it looks good.It's an ipad1 which is a bit too blue.Samsumg 51pne450.warm2 is also blue in the brightest areas and red in everything else,and a magenta push.

The difference my adjustments which are just my preference vs matching it too those photos is I raised blue gain 1,lower red gain 2...raise blue bias 2.lower red bias 6.I don't think my midtones/mid picture levels are in balance with the rest of it though.it would require raising blue which would end up full torch mode.
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post #14 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I'm looking at those pictures and comparing it too various programs on tv, then making tv look the same.its a bit torchy, but it looks good.It's an ipad1 which is a bit too blue.Samsumg 51pne450.warm2 is also blue in the brightest areas and red in everything else,and a magenta push.
Only the iPad 3, 4, and Air have good color accuracy - if you get a good panel.
While I don't recommend using these devices as a reference at all, you should definitely not be using an iPad 1, 2, or Mini as a reference.
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post #15 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Vic

I started to write why you shouldn't be using the ipad 1 but the fact of the matter is that I only have information on the iphone/ipad 5. The whole point of this thread was based on how much more accurate it is over previous generations of iphone/ipads and how it could be used as a reference. If you have information as to the ipad 1's accuracy, please pass it along.

The same should be said for other devices that members believe to be highly accurate. Post a link and lets take a look at them.

Work Process has an excellent link to displaymates' review/shootout of some other devices and it appears that the kindle fire HDX 8.9 may be slightly more accurate than the iphone 5. Based on charts, it's not clear to me if the difference will be discernible. I've ordered one but the version I ordered (without advertising on the lock screen) won't ship till next week. I'll post after I've had a chance to make some comparisons and measurements.

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post #16 of 36 Old 11-21-2013, 03:07 AM
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Doug B hooked up a meter to a iPad 1 and if my memory is correct he said it was about 10% too blue.
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post #17 of 36 Old 11-21-2013, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Doug B hooked up a meter to a iPad 1 and if my memory is correct he said it was about 10% too blue.

With it being 10% off, do you understand that you can't use it as a reference?

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post #18 of 36 Old 11-21-2013, 05:25 AM
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I don't have a meter.
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post #19 of 36 Old 11-21-2013, 06:33 AM
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How do you know that the image displayed on the iphone or ipad is correct without having measured your screen. By intuition? Intuition is not very scientific. It is absurd
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post #20 of 36 Old 11-21-2013, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Miguelronda,

Read the link in post 1.

Presumption is that tolerances with Apple is fairly tight.


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post #21 of 36 Old 11-24-2013, 10:07 PM
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The Ipad and Iphone are both blue relative to d65. In the Displaymate reviews I referenced, the iphone 5 measured 7,461K, the ipad retina (ie ipad 3/ ipad air) measured 7,085K.

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post #22 of 36 Old 11-25-2013, 12:45 AM
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Work permit- Thanks for posting the photos.That's one most helpful things I've had.I thought looking at photos and comparing too tv might of helped,but I don't know much anything about photos,cameras and did not know which photos would be the right ones too use....On the tv I just made the midlevels(most content),different shows the same color as photos and its the best I've gotten it......I tried displaying graybars patterns on ipad for whitebalance tv adjustment but could not get it satisfying like it is now. it's clean,crisp, higher contrast look,blacks are black,colors look clean....it helped that I adjusted it for midtones, average,typical content the same color as photos...I've made the mistake of adjusting for high contrast,low picture level stuff,but it looks lowsy for dimmer abl stuff.
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post #23 of 36 Old 11-25-2013, 02:39 AM
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If you want to use an iOS device for this purpose you should first calibrate it.
Datacolor provides an iOS app for his probes.
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post #24 of 36 Old 11-25-2013, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Vic
....snip...

Work Process has an excellent link to displaymates' review/shootout of some other devices and it appears that the kindle fire HDX 8.9 may be slightly more accurate than the iphone 5. Based on charts, it's not clear to me if the difference will be discernible. I've ordered one but the version I ordered (without advertising on the lock screen) won't ship till next week. I'll post after I've had a chance to make some comparisons and measurements.

As a follow up to my earlier post, the Kindle Fire arrived early. Testing it revealed a dE of 8 for grayscale. For those who don't know what this means, anything 3 and higher is considered too much. The direction it was off was with green being about 10% higher than red and blue. Even to the eye, it appears slightly greenish. Too much to be considered as a reference device.

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post #25 of 36 Old 11-25-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

As a follow up to my earlier post, the Kindle Fire arrived early. Testing it revealed a dE of 8 for grayscale. For those who don't know what this means, anything 3 and higher is considered too much. The direction it was off was with green being about 10% higher than red and blue. Even to the eye, it appears slightly greenish. Too much to be considered as a reference device.

Which Kindle Fire? The review I posted was for the Kindle Fire HDX 8.9".

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post #26 of 36 Old 11-25-2013, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Work permit- Thanks for posting the photos.That's one most helpful things I've had.I thought looking at photos and comparing too tv might of helped,but I don't know much anything about photos,cameras and did not know which photos would be the right ones too use....On the tv I just made the midlevels(most content),different shows the same color as photos and its the best I've gotten it......I tried displaying graybars patterns on ipad for whitebalance tv adjustment but could not get it satisfying like it is now. it's clean,crisp, higher contrast look,blacks are black,colors look clean....it helped that I adjusted it for midtones, average,typical content the same color as photos...I've made the mistake of adjusting for high contrast,low picture level stuff,but it looks lowsy for dimmer abl stuff.

I like to use the the real world images in the three "printer test images" I posted. When using this as my "sanity check" I focused on midtones.

In the first one (http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/printers/images/Test.jpg)
I check the coloring of the big baby (your eyes are very sensitive to skin tones). Then I check that the british guards uniform is the right shade of red and not oversaturated. The pace ride should be the proper shade of orange (not red). Finally I check the spools of red, orange, and yellow.

The second photgraph( http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/printers/images/Test.jpg)
Is mostly redundant wih the first. The boat should be the right shade of orange.

The Third (http://www.inkjetcarts.us/support/assets/PDI_Target-DCPHiRes.jpg)
I use mostly for the additional skin tones.

I use the test patterns in the above photographs for clues on "whats wrong" if the images "don't look right".
To give you background, I enjoy photography, where getting colors right is critical. I use an Eizo CG303W and calibrate its 3d LUT with a i1-pro. I print using an Epson 3880, which I calibrate with an x-rite iSis. Calibration of both the display and printer is fully automatic and should "just work". But sometimes it doesn't. I use these photographs to check to see if the calibration of the monitor and printer are correct. Having said that, I've never thought of using as a check of my TV calibration until I read this thread.

Alex
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post #27 of 36 Old 11-26-2013, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Which Kindle Fire? The review I posted was for the Kindle Fire HDX 8.9".


It's the same model, the Kindle Fire HDX 8.9".

I tried to get Amazon to swap it out but the guy I spoke with thought that this was how they would all perform and drove the conversation away from exchange to returning it.

Redid the test after a longer warmup, about 90 minutes, and the results still showed it off around dE 7 for grayscale.

In the way of a comparison, my iphone 5 grayscale floated around a dE of 3 with blue being the off color. With the HDX, it was green that was off.

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post #28 of 36 Old 11-26-2013, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

It's the same model, the Kindle Fire HDX 8.9".

I tried to get Amazon to swap it out but the guy I spoke with thought that this was how they would all perform and drove the conversation away from exchange to returning it.

Redid the test after a longer warmup, about 90 minutes, and the results still showed it off around dE 7 for grayscale.

In the way of a comparison, my iphone 5 grayscale floated around a dE of 3 with blue being the off color. With the HDX, it was green that was off.

Sorry to hear that, and sorry to have led you down that path. Luckily amazon has a great return policy.

I'm curious, how did you profile the kindle? Specifically, how did you feed it calibration images?

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post #29 of 36 Old 11-26-2013, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Sorry to hear that, and sorry to have led you down that path. Luckily amazon has a great return policy.

I'm curious, how did you profile the kindle? Specifically, how did you feed it calibration images?

No problem. It's actually a pretty slick tablet.

Chad B had created a series of grayscale and color patterns earlier this year. Don't exactly remember which thread but if you're interested, I'll try to find them. I already had them on my computer and was able to transfer them to the kindle and iphone 5 via usb and thundersomething cables.

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post #30 of 36 Old 11-26-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

No problem. It's actually a pretty slick tablet.

Chad B had created a series of grayscale and color patterns earlier this year. Don't exactly remember which thread but if you're interested, I'll try to find them. I already had them on my computer and was able to transfer them to the kindle and iphone 5 via usb and thundersomething cables.

If you could post the a link, that would be great. I'll post a profile of my ipad air so we can compare notes.

Alex
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