Issue with calibrating Panasonic ST60 and skin tones - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 162 Old 01-05-2014, 01:35 PM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I start with Cinema at color setting of 50 and perform my calibration including grayscale and CMS. That results in a grayscale Delta E of .69 and color checker Delta E of 1.15. Then I go back to check the color decoder and see that it is not correct when using the blue filter. The Custom mode after calibration passed this test but the Cinema cannot unless I set the color to 60. Can you explain this further?

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 04:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Never touched the blue filter and I am not sure why you are using it all ? Just stick with the CMS calibration color does not need to ramped up to 60 imo. The color control primarly affects luminance and you can control that in the cms

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #123 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 09:06 AM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I just find it odd than after CMS calibration the blue filter looks great with the Custom setting but not with the Cinema setting. Is the blue filter intended to be used with the color setting only when there is no CMS capability? Can I simply skip that aspect during a full calibration?

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #124 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 09:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Don't really have an explanation for that. Yes using the filter is not an accurate way to set the control with or without a CMS. Using a meter is much more accurate. I haven't used the filter since I got a meter. Saw my calibrator use it once to look for some issues in color tracking but that's the only time I ever saw him use one.

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #125 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 09:37 AM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Your explanation makes sense. I guess CalMan included the color filter and have the step as part of their basic workflow to accommodate TVs without a CMS system. Do you think the color decoder in the TV could have a problem under the Cinema setting perhaps, or would that get sorted as part of the CMS?

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #126 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
I think a color decoder issue that large would show up in the charts. Totally unrelated but what gamma target did you shoot for ?

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #127 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 11:07 AM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I shot for a target of 2.4 and set the gamma to 2.6 if that makes sense. I am new at this so feel free to critique as necessary! I have the tutorial version so I can't create a report to share. Have you noticed that Cinema always appears brighter than Custom after calibration? Right now Cinema is my Day Mode and Custom is my night.

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #128 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 11:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
I used 2.6 also set a target of 2.3 which I like was at 2.2 before. No they measure the same with the contrast setting being the same. You are seeing an actual ftl difference ?

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #129 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 01:54 PM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I do feel like I'm seeing an actual ftl difference. Perhaps this weekend I can take some time and re-calibrate both settings now that I am more familiar with the software and workflows. Do you think it's worthwhile to pick up a D3 or will that even make much of a difference? I feel like I have to take multiple reading with my C3 every time because the values fluctuate.

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #130 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 02:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
sawfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart View Post

I do feel like I'm seeing an actual ftl difference. Perhaps this weekend I can take some time and re-calibrate both settings now that I am more familiar with the software and workflows. Do you think it's worthwhile to pick up a D3 or will that even make much of a difference? I feel like I have to take multiple reading with my C3 every time because the values fluctuate.

I started with a C3 and recently bought a D3. It was worth it. It's faster and more reliable at reading low light levels in that it doesn't time out and render Calman unable to take new readings until restarted. (Hint: For the C3, remove black from all the layouts to reduce the chance of this happening.) If you do buy a D3, I'd be interested to hear how it measures against your C3. It was Calman 5.2.0 that updated the C3 plasma tables to make it more accurate, and the effect was for it to read lower values for red as you go up the grayscale as compared to 5.1.2. My D3 reads lower still for red with increasing grayscale IREs. I noticed the C3 behavior change in Calman 5.2.0 right away and asked about it before it was documented as intentional, and I liked the results better before the change was confirmed, so I was glad to hear they did it on purpose. I don't know if the D3 is more accurate, but I can say I like the calibration results just as much if not better for my 50ST60. The other option would be to pick up an i1Pro for accuracy's sake, but the C3 was really ticking me off with the low light level instability, and really the D3 should be no less accurate and probably more so.

The D3 will fluctuate some, and I think that's true for any instrument, so don't expect that to go away. However, measurements taken several days after the calibration seem to be more consistent with the calibration results when using the D3. Maybe I'm just more consistent with warming the TV up now, but I'm not aware of that, or maybe the C3 drifts a little during long sessions.

An expensive but great upgrade is Calman Enthusiast, which comes with more and better workflows and will let you edit workflows and layouts, use an i1Pro if you do decide to go that way, use the PC Client pattern generator which is far more flexible and convenient than pattern discs, automate series runs, view numerical data instead of just charts, and they just started including Calman RGB with it for calibrating monitors. The latter greatly improved the appearance of my CCFL NEC monitor. I upgraded the software long before getting the D3, and that was the right choice for me. On the plus side for the C3, I like its monitor calibration very slightly better than the D3's. Reading each's calibration with the other, they both report roughly 1.7 dE, but the D3 reads red a little higher in the grayscale than the C3, sort of the opposite of the plasma case, except it's more constant across the grayscale IRE range instead of steadily increasing with the IREs. So for the monitor, calibrating with the C3 gives me a little more red, while for the plasma, using the D3 gives me a little more red than the C3 (Calman 5.2.0) which gave more than the C3 (5.1.2).
WiFi-Spy likes this.
sawfish is online now  
post #131 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 03:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 263
sawfish. if you are using the I1Pro to profile your D3 , the elevated Red readings are probably coming from the I1Pro, at-least on a plasma.

To be sure do a repeatable test for Red's x factor using each meter as a stand alone meter.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sillysally is offline  
post #132 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 04:39 PM
Advanced Member
 
sawfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

sawfish. if you are using the I1Pro to profile your D3 , the elevated Red readings are probably coming from the I1Pro, at-least on a plasma.

To be sure do a repeatable test for Red's x factor using each meter as a stand alone meter.

ss

I do not have an i1Pro. I was describing the behavior of Calman with my unprofiled C3 and D3 meters. After calibrating the 50ST60 with the D3, I did the following for reference:

C3, Calman 5.1.2: Red steadily increases from 10% to 100% grayscale, starting from +1 or so at 10% and ending at +15, as per RGB Balance chart, with dEs going from 1 to 8.
C3, Calman 5.2.0: Red steadily increases from 10% to 100% grayscale, starting from +0 or so at 10% and ending at +8, as per RGB Balance chart, with dEs going from .5 to 3.9.
D3, Calman 5.2.0: Red is flat across the grayscale, avg dE .46.

So when I was using (C3, 5.1.2), I was turning red down the most out of these. When they updated Calman 5.2.0 to make the C3 more accurate with plasmas, the net effect was to turn red down roughly half as much. I thought the (C3, 5.2.0) cali looked better even before they confirmed the table updates. The D3 is "redder" still, but it looks at least as good to my eye as (C3, 5.2.0). I wish I could tell which is the more objectively accurate, but that will have to wait. While it doesn't prove anything, the Color Bar patterns finally look correct through a blue filter after the D3 calibration. They were always a little off with the C3.

The CCFL monitor story is a bit different, with the C3 and D3 measuring more similarly, each measuring the other's autocal around 1.7 dE, and I actually prefer the C3 when I flip between the ICC profiles. Better still is the D3 profiled to the C3, which I did as a goof just to see how profiling works. To be clear, these are very subtle differences, and it would be hard to tell them apart without instantaneously A/Bing them. Any of them is world's better than the monitor OOTB, and it's a good monitor, an NEC 20WMGX2.
sawfish is online now  
post #133 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 05:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 263
sawfish.

I was talking about how to determine if your meter is giving you repeatable Red, not your grayscale readings that's something different.

Use you CMS/Gamut page in CM, then put up a Red window on your screen. Now use the repeat button on that page to keep taking a Red reading, note how much your z,y and Y values change. Lets say If you x value reads are a high of 0.668 and a low of 0.660 then that would show you meter is good.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sillysally is offline  
post #134 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 09:05 PM
Senior Member
 
ttnuagmada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 260
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart View Post

I calibrated today using my limited gear and limited experience. I started by using the DVE HD Basic disc to set brightness/contrast and then used Calman5 along with the AVS HD 709 disc and C3 meter. Finally I used the S&M disc to verify 24Hz operation and other miscellaneous things. I performed two passes with the meter and calibrated the Cinema and Custom modes. The skin tone issues seem to be resolved (the TV has ~200 hrs), but no matter what I do I have to set the Color setting to 60 in the Cinema mode. The Custom mode is correct after calibration of grayscale and CMS (color set to 50) but the Cinema mode seems to have a decoder error with my particular TV. How important is the decoder/color setting? Also, no matter what I do CInema seems a bit brighter than Custom - is that normal?

Yeah, for me, I get 30 ftl at about 60 contrast on Cinema, and 70 on Custom. There's definitely a difference on my set.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
ttnuagmada is offline  
post #135 of 162 Old 01-06-2014, 09:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
sawfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

sawfish.

I was talking about how to determine if your meter is giving you repeatable Red, not your grayscale readings that's something different.

Use you CMS/Gamut page in CM, then put up a Red window on your screen. Now use the repeat button on that page to keep taking a Red reading, note how much your z,y and Y values change. Lets say If you x value reads are a high of 0.668 and a low of 0.660 then that would show you meter is good.

ss

Is extreme variability here commonly a problem with these meters, the C3 and D3? Anyway, both mine are stable, staying +/- .01 on x/y and +/- .05 on Y over 20 or so readings. What I described earlier is also highly repeatable.
sawfish is online now  
post #136 of 162 Old 01-07-2014, 10:48 AM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
sawfish,
I have never had the software crash or time-out on me. It does take the C3 longer to get a reading at 0 IRE but it does get past it. I have just a single minor issue with the C3 (other than the fact that the filter will degrade more rapidly than the D3, which is something that is inherent in its price range): I cannot get the sensor to sit flush on my screen - there is always a slight gap. Does that matter? The other annoyance is the short cord, but I use an active USB cable from Tripp Lite to resolve that. I also feel the need to take multiple readings each time and get a feel of the average so I can make a better decision during the calibration - I was hoping the D3 would mitigate that aspect; if not I will just save up for the spectrophotometer.

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #137 of 162 Old 01-07-2014, 10:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
I would go the spectro route since you have a colorimeter already just my 2 cents

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #138 of 162 Old 01-07-2014, 11:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
sawfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart View Post

sawfish,
I have never had the software crash or time-out on me. It does take the C3 longer to get a reading at 0 IRE but it does get past it. I have just a single minor issue with the C3 (other than the fact that the filter will degrade more rapidly than the D3, which is something that is inherent in its price range): I cannot get the sensor to sit flush on my screen - there is always a slight gap. Does that matter?

I lean a 15" plastic ruler against it to get it flush. It is surprisingly stable; the ruler has never slipped and slid down the TV on its own. When I inadvertently helped it wink.gif, it didn't scratch the glass. The D3 requires some fiddling to get it flush, but it will lay flat on its own. You could use painter's tape from bezel edge to edge to help the C3.
Quote:
The other annoyance is the short cord, but I use an active USB cable from Tripp Lite to resolve that.

I have to use an extension cord with the D3 as well, but just a plain one. My issue with the C3 trying to read extremely low light output occurs when plugged directly into any of several PCs, though. Maybe I should see about replacing it.
Quote:
I also feel the need to take multiple readings each time and get a feel of the average so I can make a better decision during the calibration - I was hoping the D3 would mitigate that aspect; if not I will just save up for the spectrophotometer.

I think they are all going to bounce around some. Taking the average of several measurements and estimating uncertainty is SOP when doing experimental work, which basically is what this is. Repeatability and accuracy may not be the same over the entire range of the device, either. When comparing one trial to another, also keep in mind the TV may be producing slightly different output.
sawfish is online now  
post #139 of 162 Old 01-07-2014, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
PeterLewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 638
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 22
@Neil and sawfish

I use blue painters tape from edge to edge with none of it touching the glass over my Colormunki Display and it works great.

The meter sits flush and the painters tape leaves absolutely no residue on the bezel.

I even mistakenly touched the glass with the tape and it does not leave any marks or residue.

Just remember blue painters tape.....Dont go expirementing with other kinds of tape.

Samsung 60F8500
Panasonic 55GT30
Panasonic BDT310
PS3 (PS4 coming soon)
Sony STR-DG1000 AVR
Mirage Omnisat V2 7.1 set up with Energy S10 Sub
PeterLewis is offline  
post #140 of 162 Old 01-07-2014, 03:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Is extreme variability here commonly a problem with these meters, the C3 and D3? Anyway, both mine are stable, staying +/- .01 on x/y and +/- .05 on Y over 20 or so readings. What I described earlier is also highly repeatable.

I am attaching a WRGB test done with my K10-A and a 65VT60, you may want to compare your RGB readings to the K10-A readings.

K10.zip 3k .zip file

Below are the test results for WRGB using my I1Pro 2 and 65VT60. Note that these tests where done on different days.

I1Pro2.zip 3k .zip file



ss
Attached Files
File Type: zip I1Pro2.zip (2.5 KB, 25 views)
ConnecTEDDD likes this.

"Don't worry be happy"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sillysally is offline  
post #141 of 162 Old 01-07-2014, 10:14 PM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
This place is more dangerous than Head-Fi! I just bought a X-Rite EFI ES-1000 Rev. D on eBay (it's a re-badged i1Pro) and of course I needed to upgrade from Tutorial to take advantage of it. Now I just bought the Enthusiast version so I can get the PC licenses as well...

This journey started out as an affordable way to calibrate my budget ST60...sigh tongue.gif

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #142 of 162 Old 01-08-2014, 07:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
realzven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart View Post

This place is more dangerous than Head-Fi! I just bought a X-Rite EFI ES-1000 Rev. D on eBay (it's a re-badged i1Pro) and of course I needed to upgrade from Tutorial to take advantage of it. Now I just bought the Enthusiast version so I can get the PC licenses as well...

This journey started out as an affordable way to calibrate my budget ST60...sigh tongue.gif

it's a very good choice wink.gif
realzven is offline  
post #143 of 162 Old 01-08-2014, 09:13 AM
Member
 
NeilPeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Do you have the same unit or did I buy yours on eBay? biggrin.gif

"glittering prizes and endless compromises..."

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeilPeart is offline  
post #144 of 162 Old 01-08-2014, 10:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
realzven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart View Post

Do you have the same unit or did I buy yours on eBay? biggrin.gif
No biggrin.gif i've got this combo rev D + display pro smile.gif
realzven is offline  
post #145 of 162 Old 01-09-2014, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart View Post

This place is more dangerous than Head-Fi! I just bought a X-Rite EFI ES-1000 Rev. D on eBay (it's a re-badged i1Pro) and of course I needed to upgrade from Tutorial to take advantage of it. Now I just bought the Enthusiast version so I can get the PC licenses as well...

This journey started out as an affordable way to calibrate my budget ST60...sigh tongue.gif

Good choices congrats !!

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #146 of 162 Old 01-10-2014, 11:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
sawfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Is extreme variability here commonly a problem with these meters, the C3 and D3? Anyway, both mine are stable, staying +/- .01 on x/y and +/- .05 on Y over 20 or so readings. What I described earlier is also highly repeatable.

I am attaching a WRGB test done with my K10-A and a 65VT60, you may want to compare your RGB readings to the K10-A readings.

K10.zip 3k .zip file

Below are the test results for WRGB using my I1Pro 2 and 65VT60. Note that these tests where done on different days.

I1Pro2.zip 3k .zip file



ss

Thanks, I was eyeballing my Calman readings, and I had changed the layouts to show only 2 decimal places to help the tables fit better. I've since expanded to 4 decimal places and re-evaluated. I put all your data into a spreadsheet along with new readings for my D3 and compiled some statistics. Your values are for your 65VT60 and PC Levels for peak White-Red-Blue-Green (WRGB); mine are for a D3 measuring a P50ST60 with 5% windows at about 35 fL using Video Levels. Here are the average relative errors for the peak WRGB series, the standard deviations divided by the means and expressed as percent (this takes the Y units out of the equation), and this is a measure of the repeatability, which is what NeilPeart was interested in:

sillysally's K10
Y +/- 0.2080%
x +/- 0.0101%
y +/- 0.0346%

sillysally's i1Pro 2
Y +/- 0.3559%
x +/- 0.0283%
y +/- 0.0512%

sawfish's i1D3
Y +/- 0.9868%
x +/- 0.0310%
y +/- 0.0548%

Your K10 and i1Pro 2 beat my i1D3 for Y, but it's a lot closer for x and y. I didn't try my C3, but based on using it for almost a year, I seriously doubt it's any better than the D3 for repeatability.

Here's the summary data. (My ST60 is oversaturated at peak red and green for the values reported below, and the peak red hue is a little off, but this allows it to be quite accurate for values below the peaks. I gave up on trying to format it. I can't find a fixed pitch font option here, and while this site's code option does use one, it automatically color-codes everything in unfortunate ways.)

sillysally's K10, Y units are cd/m^2?

K10 White (255,255,255) - (Y, x, y)
Max 98.4887 0.3229 0.3337
Min 97.3432 0.3227 0.3334
Mean 97.9114 0.3228 0.3336
StdDev 3.2682E-01 4.7189E-05 7.2388E-05
Rel StdDev 0.3338% 0.0146% 0.0217%

K10 Red (255,0,0) - (Y, x, y)
Max 21.7058 0.6682 0.3140
Min 21.6324 0.6680 0.3139
Mean 21.6722 0.6681 0.3140
StdDev 1.9524E-02 5.2911E-05 4.7743E-05
Rel StdDev 0.0901% 0.0079% 0.0152%

K10 Green (0,255,0) - (Y, x, y)
Max 71.6143 0.2892 0.6516
Min 71.2142 0.2890 0.6512
Mean 71.4480 0.2891 0.6514
StdDev 9.7305E-02 5.1330E-05 8.0895E-05
Rel StdDev 0.1362% 0.0178% 0.0124%

K10 Blue (0,0,255) - (Y, x, y)
Max 7.2885 0.1495 0.0564
Min 7.2207 0.1495 0.0563
Mean 7.2579 0.1495 0.0563
StdDev 1.9727E-02 5.7121E-17 5.0163E-05
Rel StdDev 0.2718% 0.0000% 0.0890%

sillysally's i1Pro 2, Y units are cd/m^2?

i1Pro White (255,255,255) - (Y, x, y)
Max 99.5853 0.3244 0.3397
Min 96.5970 0.3241 0.3390
Mean 98.0214 0.3242 0.3393
StdDev 8.7739E-01 8.7514E-05 1.8817E-04
Rel StdDev 0.8951% 0.0270% 0.0555%

i1Pro Red (255,0,0) - (Y, x, y)
Max 21.4319 0.6632 0.3168
Min 21.3221 0.6626 0.3166
Mean 21.3766 0.6629 0.3167
StdDev 2.8469E-02 1.4690E-04 6.0698E-05
Rel StdDev 0.1332% 0.0222% 0.0192%

i1Pro Green (0,255,0) - (Y, x, y)
Max 71.0840 0.2929 0.6449
Min 70.8754 0.2927 0.6444
Mean 70.9992 0.2928 0.6447
StdDev 6.6020E-02 5.4917E-05 1.1419E-04
Rel StdDev 0.0930% 0.0188% 0.0177%

i1Pro Blue (0,0,255) - (Y, x, y)
Max 7.5615 0.1512 0.0614
Min 7.4798 0.1509 0.0612
Mean 7.5305 0.1510 0.0613
StdDev 2.2780E-02 6.8354E-05 6.8966E-05
Rel StdDev 0.3025% 0.0453% 0.1125%

sawfish's D3, 20 readings each, Y units are fL

D3 White (235,235,235) - (Y, x, y)
Max 34.7572 0.3123 0.3290
Min 33.8475 0.3119 0.3282
Mean 34.3051 0.3121 0.3286
StdDev 2.8778E-01 1.3485E-04 2.5152E-04
Rel StdDev 0.8389% 0.0432% 0.0765%

D3 Red (235,16,16) - (Y, x, y)
Max 6.6698 0.6495 0.3239
Min 6.4554 0.6491 0.3237
Mean 6.5414 0.6493 0.3238
StdDev 7.2804E-02 1.0712E-04 5.1042E-05
Rel StdDev 1.1130% 0.0165% 0.0158%

D3 Green (16,235,16) - (Y, x, y)
Max 25.5072 0.3000 0.6169
Min 24.8824 0.2997 0.6162
Mean 25.1696 0.2998 0.6165
StdDev 2.5668E-01 1.0501E-04 2.4682E-04
Rel StdDev 1.0198% 0.0350% 0.0400%

D3 Blue (16,16,235) - (Y, x, y)
Max 2.6130 0.1510 0.0588
Min 2.5435 0.1509 0.0587
Mean 2.5853 0.1509 0.0588
StdDev 2.5221E-02 4.4426E-05 5.1042E-05
Rel StdDev 0.9756% 0.0294% 0.0869%
sawfish is online now  
post #147 of 162 Old 08-18-2014, 02:57 AM
Member
 
James Freeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 51
I too had an issue getting a good neutral greyscale because of different APL triggering ABL thus changing the temperature.
Calibrating with windows got perfect results only with those windows, but skin tones looked greenish compared to my calibrated IPS monitor (Dell U2410).
Calibrating with APL Small/Large (AVS709HD) was no better because of the reason I'll post below.

I have created my own APL pattern with a true average greys that matched the average of a typical movie.

Here is what I did:
Using a PC, I have played a movie using MPC-HC with Saturation (in the software) set to 0% to get black & white picture.
Then I took several screenshots in dark and bright scenes.
In photoshop I measured the average level of the dark and bright images.
For dark scenes it was around 30 (of 255) and for bright images it was around 70, so the magic number was 50.

Then I have created a 1920x1080 with 50,50,50 grey (RGB) as the background and created (borrowed from AVS709) the APL squares on this grey background (I took the large APL patterns but 50% size).

The calibration was spot on, black and white finally looks truly neutral without any temperature tint, gamma curve was solid.
As a result the color calibration yielded excellent skin (and everything else) tones, which closely resemble what I see on an IPS panel but with MUCH better contrast (of course).

The secret was to make the background an actual average grey shade of a movie and not Black like in the original APL patterns.
Although APL is much better with plasma than any kind of window, the APL pattern itself has to trigger the correct amount of ABL that matches a typical movie scene which luckily is pretty narrow in terms of average luminance.

From my measurements that average grey shade of a movie is 30-70 out of 255, that's why small APL squares on a 50 grey background gave me the the best grey scale so far.
I also tried APL squares on a Black & White movie screenshot as background, and that too got me great results, in fact, it was the first thing I tried after long and frustrating days of calibrating with windows, APL small/large (to perfection) only to find that I'm still getting greenish/reddish greyscale compared to my LCD.

Every plasma display will behave differently because of ABL to the AVS709 APL patterns, therefor the actual results WILL vary from display to display (even same model) and that's definitely not what "calibration" is.
We want the greyscale to look consistent on every display we have, with the same content.
That's why calibrating with APL which triggers ABL should be set with the CONTENT you'll be watching the most. In my case is 2.39:1 movies.

I'll post few picture with explanations of what and how I did my new method.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-18-2014 at 06:11 AM.
James Freeman is offline  
post #148 of 162 Old 08-18-2014, 08:45 AM
Member
 
James Freeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Sorry for the large pics.

First I calibrated with a black and white image of a what looked to me a balanced image and on top of that a Large APL pattern 50% size (using MPC-HC) without the frame.



Then I switched to an average grey (50) which is approximately in the middle of several scenes from different movies.



This gave me absolutely perfect Greyscale with no tint to green or red.
Then I calibrated the colors with large windows at 50% size on the same grey background.

Hope that info comes as useful to others struggling with plasma calibration.


EDIT:

Take this image for example:


Its made from screen shots in 16-235 range, the average grey for this image is around 70.
That's around what you should use for grey background, just play the APL windows on top of that.
Maybe the 50 I used is a tad dark but still got me close to perfect results.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-18-2014 at 11:23 PM.
James Freeman is offline  
post #149 of 162 Old 08-18-2014, 08:55 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Any chance to post the patterns ?I'm interested to.do a comparison with small 4% windows on my 55vt60.Thank for the info!
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #150 of 162 Old 08-18-2014, 09:31 AM
Member
 
James Freeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
Any chance to post the patterns ?I'm interested to.do a comparison with small 4% windows on my 55vt60. Thank for the info!
I'll have to create them (give me a few minutes EDIT: hours).
I used my HTPC to play the APL pattern using MPC-HC without the frame on top of a plain Background which I set in Windows 7.

BTW, if you calibrated with 4% windows your gamma with a typical 2.39:1 or 16:9 content is closer to 3.0.
Since ABL kicks in and makes the image darker thus higher gamma.
That's why I urge to use average movie grey background.
Definitely NOT Black screen and small windows, that's just bypasses the ABL altogether which is the farthest thing from real content.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-18-2014 at 09:46 AM.
James Freeman is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off