Issue with calibrating Panasonic ST60 and skin tones - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 08-18-2014, 10:50 AM
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Thank you!
Regarding gamma it depends on what value you calibrate. Using 22% apl patterns will yeld a closer to 2.35 gamma and using 4% will be closer to 2.3 and that's how it's been calibrated. I don't usually alter the natural response of the screen. The vt and st (because I had that too) usually starts form a 2.1 value at 10% white and goes towards 2.3 at higher ire with normal windows and a 2.4 gamma value in the settings.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:58 AM
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Here are the slides: Grey APL Slides.zip
EDIT:
Updated with my improved APL squares; These are 16-235 APL squares which have nothing above, below or to the sides of the center square.
EDIT2: Please use this new zip because the last had some issues with actual values.


There are two version 0-255 & 16-235.
You'll probably already know what to do with them & HDMI range settings in the TV (I hope ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB
The vt and st usually starts form a 2.1 value at 10% white and goes towards 2.3 at higher ire with normal windows and a 2.4 gamma value in the settings.
You are right, I noticed this behavior too.
BUT, try to measure these APL windows on top of a typical movie scene (or grey background) and you'll get a higher gamma.

Question, Does your greyscale shifts towards greenish tint when calibrating with the windows or APL that come with the AVS709HD disc?
Just lower your saturation to 0% to see if the movie image is actually neutral grey and not greenish compared to a calibrated LCD.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 08-19-2014 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:44 PM
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Thanks for the patterns!
I'll tell you what I've found and know about 60 series.
First, my experience witn one 50st60 and two 50vt60 wasn't too good. All of them had a red blob in the center no matter what setting of color or calibration or anything. They had also terrible red-tinted line bleed. All of that I'm sure influenced the calibration.
That's the reason now I have a 55vt60 which is much more stable and less influenced by the type of the patterns (size and apl).
It is true that the 50'models showed that behavior and were tinted in wb when using normal windows.
Regarding AVSHD with all due respect for the developers I don't like their apl patterns. I would use instead Mascior's or GCD which have diffrent windows sizes on a full grey 22% APL background. Hope that helps! Also my tv's are European models but some says there are not too much differences this year.
About gamma...it is known that apl patterns will yield a higher gamma that's why I said that I fallow the "natural" response of the panel when calibrating without major adjustments in gamma settings.

Last edited by Andrei_VVB; 08-18-2014 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
All of them had a red blob in the center no matter what setting of color or calibration or anything.
Sounds like a low VSUS problem on all the 50" pannys you had.

Quote:
About gamma...it is known that apl patterns will yield a higher gamma that's why I said that I follow the "natural" response of the panel when calibrating without major adjustments in gamma settings.
Whats looks "Natural" with the calibration patterns and the resulting graph you see in your calibration software, might look completely off with real content.

This thread is about tinted skin tones after what appears to be a perfect calibration, now why is that?
Simple, the APL of typical content is different than the APL of the calibration windows.

My goal was to find the sweet spot where neutral greyscale and ABL meet in typical content and calibrate there.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-18-2014 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:19 PM
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The V-sus adjustment from low to high didn't cure this problem. It was well spread on the avforums but that's a different discussion.
Regarding patterns, I had used all kind of them(true that not with 50% background) and the results were quite different on the 50" models for wb but not on this 55". I'll give them a try just to see what are the differences.
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Old 08-18-2014, 03:10 PM
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My inexperienced but educated opinion is that you are correct. I was looking for a high apl window patterns some time ago after coming to the same conclusion. Having never found any and without knowledge of making some I gave up....so many thanks.

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Old 08-18-2014, 11:54 PM
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I have updated the ZIP in post #152 with my version of 16-235 APL squares.
It has 70 grey background and nothing above or below nor to the sides of the central square, which is important because of how plasma creates the image.

These should be played using a HTPC with 0-255 HDMI output, while the TV should be set to Standard (16-235).
Maybe someone can make a standard 16-235 video files (like AVS709) from these so that they can be easily played with any standalone player?

Looks like so:
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:02 AM
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Any chance that you could add peak white (254) to your 16-235 images?
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
Any chance that you could add peak white (254) to your 16-235 images?
DONE.
Now there are only a 16-235 slides.

@ Andrei_VVB, everybody.
Make sure you download the new zip file because the last one had a little different grey values, this one is correct.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:15 PM
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I dont suppose you have the patterns in 5% steps for 21pt? If not would you accept just one more request? And this is just a thought but maybe a more detailed tutorial on how you made them. It would be fun to play around with and I think it would benefit future readers....anyway thanks for sharing.

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Old 08-19-2014, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodixe View Post
I dont suppose you have the patterns in 5% steps for 21pt? If not would you accept just one more request? And this is just a thought but maybe a more detailed tutorial on how you made them. It would be fun to play around with and I think it would benefit future readers....anyway thanks for sharing.
To create 5% pattern I first would have to invent it, meaning to think of a new square position, it shouldn't be hard but it would take several hours of my time.

You can make them yourself.

235-16 = 220 steps.
220/10 = 22 (Each step is 22 RGB clicks lower than the previous).

110% = 255
100% = 235-22 = 213
90% = 213-22 = 191
80% = 191-22 = 169
.
.
.
10% = 37

AVS709HD uses exactly the same numbers.
The place of the square that goes to the center should be replaced with 16 (black) square to maintain APL.

Hope its clear.


BTW I calibrate colors with the MPC-HC player in the center of the APL slide.
This gave me beautiful and accurate color, while maintaining the APL of the calibrated greyscale.
I think its the correct way to calibrate color, the APL of the greyscale should not change during color calibration.
* When I actually calibrate I remove the media player frame you can see in the image, this was just to show how I calibrate using a HTPC without slides.

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Old 08-21-2014, 11:18 PM
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Thank you...I will play when I get time, it shouldn't be too hard (we are the people who decided to self teach video calibration after all lol)
Edit: I read the instructions again and the info was really helpful thanks.
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Last edited by nodixe; 08-22-2014 at 12:17 AM. Reason: Re-read instructions...helps alot
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:18 AM
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sorry to pull an old thread, but did anyone ever figure out how to calibrate the green out of the picture? I've given it a couple of goes since this thread, and I can't figure it out. Just out of curiosity, I put D-Nices settings in, just to see what it looked like (yeah, i know, I know), and it makes an obvious correction to the green problem, and the picture looks more accurate. I think there must be a trick to doing it that we hobbyists aren't aware of.
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
sorry to pull an old thread, but did anyone ever figure out how to calibrate the green out of the picture? I've given it a couple of goes since this thread, and I can't figure it out. Just out of curiosity, I put D-Nices settings in, just to see what it looked like (yeah, i know, I know), and it makes an obvious correction to the green problem, and the picture looks more accurate. I think there must be a trick to doing it that we hobbyists aren't aware of.

I had that issue on my ST60, ultimately I concluded it was more source related rather than a flaw with the ST60. Possibly related to abl/apl shifting but no definitive answer. I spent a lot of time on my set and so did Chad and we never were able to remedy it except for biasing the greyscale towards red. If I recall the Dnice settings pushed red to a large degree on my set so what you say makes sense. You might have better skin tones at the cost of accuracy in other areas.

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Old 02-25-2016, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
sorry to pull an old thread, but did anyone ever figure out how to calibrate the green out of the picture? I've given it a couple of goes since this thread, and I can't figure it out. Just out of curiosity, I put D-Nices settings in, just to see what it looked like (yeah, i know, I know), and it makes an obvious correction to the green problem, and the picture looks more accurate. I think there must be a trick to doing it that we hobbyists aren't aware of.
For my 50ST60, I got green-tinted skin tones in certain low APL scenes when I calibrated against Spears and Munsil 2nd ed Equal Energy patterns, a type of Constant APL pattern. The solution was to calibrate with small windows. I eventually settled on 2% windows, which gave me great results at all APL levels.

About the red-tinted blacks, the answer to that was not to touch the low end of the 2 point grayscale controls. I'd also recommend targeting BT.1886 gamma instead of the flat 2.4 D-nice used.

Earlier in the thread, I described how to easily observe the effect of ABL changes on skin tones. See this message and its follow-up for more:

Issue with calibrating Panasonic ST60 and skin tones

I suspect my bad results with the Equal Energy patterns were due to them landing in an unfortunate area along the ABL curve, and if you follow my instructions in the linked message, it should be apparent what a crapshoot it is to choose a Constant APL or large window size that falls in a relatively unaffected area across the entire pattern set.
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Old 02-26-2016, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
For my 50ST60, I got green-tinted skin tones in certain low APL scenes when I calibrated against Spears and Munsil 2nd ed Equal Energy patterns, a type of Constant APL pattern. The solution was to calibrate with small windows. I eventually settled on 2% windows, which gave me great results at all APL levels.

About the red-tinted blacks, the answer to that was not to touch the low end of the 2 point grayscale controls. I'd also recommend targeting BT.1886 gamma instead of the flat 2.4 D-nice used.

Earlier in the thread, I described how to easily observe the effect of ABL changes on skin tones. See this message and its follow-up for more:

Issue with calibrating Panasonic ST60 and skin tones

I suspect my bad results with the Equal Energy patterns were due to them landing in an unfortunate area along the ABL curve, and if you follow my instructions in the linked message, it should be apparent what a crapshoot it is to choose a Constant APL or large window size that falls in a relatively unaffected area across the entire pattern set.
Yeah, 2% windows were what give me the least amount of green, so that's what I used on my most recent try, it helped a little bit, but it's still nowhere near where I think it should be. I also have observed the ABL greenshift. I noticed it the first time when I was watching the news or something like that, and something popped up on the bottom of the screen, and you could see the faces of the anchors shift green as a result of the APL going up. So I've accepted that these sets have inherent issues like that.
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Old 02-26-2016, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
Yeah, 2% windows were what give me the least amount of green, so that's what I used on my most recent try, it helped a little bit, but it's still nowhere near where I think it should be. I also have observed the ABL greenshift. I noticed it the first time when I was watching the news or something like that, and something popped up on the bottom of the screen, and you could see the faces of the anchors shift green as a result of the APL going up. So I've accepted that these sets have inherent issues like that.
What meter are you using?
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Old 02-26-2016, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
What meter are you using?
i1D3 profiled by a colormunki photo. I got the spectro because i wondered if my meter was off, but according to the spectro it wasn't off at all. My ST30 calibrates fine, as do my PC monitors. My parents and brother's set also turned out fine. So I've concluded that this set just behaves strangely.
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Old 02-26-2016, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
i1D3 profiled by a colormunki photo. I got the spectro because i wondered if my meter was off, but according to the spectro it wasn't off at all. My ST30 calibrates fine, as do my PC monitors. My parents and brother's set also turned out fine. So I've concluded that this set just behaves strangely.
That's my setup, too! However, my i1D3 measured red a little low compared to the Munki. Two things.

1. I found I got much more reproducible red readings when I increased the read delay to 5 seconds in Calman with the i1D3.

2. I had to give up on Calman 5.3's automated profiling because it was seriously buggy on my plasma, but I was able to devise a manual profiling method. I described it all in great detail in this thread:

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...hp?f=94&t=5171
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Old 02-26-2016, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
i1D3 profiled by a colormunki photo. I got the spectro because i wondered if my meter was off, but according to the spectro it wasn't off at all. My ST30 calibrates fine, as do my PC monitors. My parents and brother's set also turned out fine. So I've concluded that this set just behaves strangely.

A lut might remedy the situation but that's a lot of effort. Imo you'll just end up chasing your tail I just accepted it as a characteristic of the ST60, I had a professional spend 9 hours trying to get rid of the green bias and no dice. Those really small windows totally bypass ABL so you are just creating issues somewhere else in the dynamic range. Just my 2 cents.

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Old 02-26-2016, 11:42 AM
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A lut might remedy the situation but that's a lot of effort. Imo you'll just end up chasing your tail I just accepted it as a characteristic of the ST60, I had a professional spend 9 hours trying to get rid of the green bias and no dice. Those really small windows totally bypass ABL so you are just creating issues somewhere else in the dynamic range. Just my 2 cents.

I do have Calman enthusiast, and most of my movie watching is done via an HTPC with MadVR, so a 3DLUT is going to happen at some point, I just haven't had the chance to do it.
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Old 02-26-2016, 11:52 AM
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I do have Calman enthusiast, and most of my movie watching is done via an HTPC with MadVR, so a 3DLUT is going to happen at some point, I just haven't had the chance to do it.
That may take care of it

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Old 02-27-2016, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
I put D-Nices settings in, just to see what it looked like (yeah, i know, I know), and it makes an obvious correction to the green problem, and the picture looks more accurate.
I tried Dnice's settings and noticed that it gave my picture a redish tint through out the grey scale. Blacks, mids and the whites. So I wouldn't say that it was "accurate" for my set. I even measured it with my ID3Pro meter and it was not very accurate.
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Old 02-27-2016, 08:38 AM
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If I recall the Dnice settings pushed red to a large degree on my set so what you say makes sense. You might have better skin tones at the cost of accuracy in other areas.
I got the same results on my set, too red through out the grey scale.
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Old 02-27-2016, 08:29 PM
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I got the same results on my set, too red through out the grey scale.
Well, that's the whole issue though. I can calibrate this set to get very accurate greyscale according to my meter and software (ive' tried APL windows, big windows, small windows etc) but it doesn't translate into content looking correct. Even after tweaking the greyscale to the point that I was averaging under dE 1.5 on 5% steps, I can throw up a greyscale ramp and see several spots with green or blue push. D-nices settings also appear to push noticably red on greyscale ramps, or if im doing web-browsing or something, but movie-watching wise, things look a bit better and more similar to my ST30. It's strange, and I more or less gave up on trying to properly calibrate this thing.
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:38 AM
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Hi, agree, all Panasonic 's require 3d LUT. The standard processors are fairly poor. No point having all those calibration controls when the basic skint ones are inaccurate. I have displays with minimal calibration tools and are far more colour accurate when compared to a broadcast colour grading monitor. Compromise is no word for accuracy. I have a basic X20 model, which has exemplary measurements. However, exhibits the same skint one issues as described in this thread. Best thing is to find a mode with minimal processing (gaming mode I'm guessing) and LUT it! Money is wasted on these expensive calibration features. Get a basic Panasonic. At least Panasonic does excellent black levels...so still worth preserving with Panasonic just use a LUT. I.would stick with my Sony plasma if it wasn't for the poor black levels. However, the Sony colour measurements are poor, but compares extremely well with the broadcast colour grading monitor. Sony is superior than the Panasonic without LUT.
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:41 AM
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Just re-read my response...Isn't it great the way smart phones try to auto correct spelling and grammar! ! No!!!!
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Old 03-19-2016, 02:49 PM
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I'm in the same position as others, and frustrated. I've had my ST60 since late '13 and brought in Jeff Meier to do the calibration. I'm sure he did a great job according to "specs", but I can't stand the fact that skin always looks green.

Should I ask for a re-do? Or is there no real hope in reducing the constant green push?

The plan is to go OLED eventually, but probably not until late 2017. Am I stuck with another year+ of overly green skin tones?

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Old 03-20-2016, 03:54 AM
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So I was looking at a thread about 50hz issues. So hooked my grade 1 broadcast monitor and Panasonic up to the blue ray player instead of the freesat box. Colours were more accurate using this source, using DVE demo. However, I did notice the greyscale- lacked red in the lower region, although measures spot on with my spectro- meter. Now I have used this meter on other plasmas, crt and lcd with no issues. Is it a case that Panasonic plasma panels output more infrared? I will be doing more tests. Skin tones are not only affected, anything with 'subtle ' colour shading is affected. I'm just so suprised by the visual performance as I've never seen anything like this on any display which have excellent meter measurements. My kitchen 19inch lcd TV provides more accurate colour than the Panasonic!
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Old 03-23-2016, 03:46 AM
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Further my investigations, I was checking the test scenario.Panasonic Plasma attached to Panasonic Freesat/Blu ray unit via HDMI and SonyCRT broadcast monitor hooked up to Panasonic unit via Component cable. Bothtested with test patterns.

So I substituted the Panasonic Plasma with a quality DellLCD monitor. Previously this monitor faired well when compared to the Sonyplasma. Good black levels and good accurate colours when the source was a HumaxFreesat box, using the HDMI feed. Not so good when connected to the Panasonicunit via HDMI! The Dell exhibited extremely poor black levels and poor colourquality, skin tones and reds more towards orange.

Now when I substitute the Dell with the Sony Plasma (Sourcestill Panasonic unit), the quality of the Sony plasma is excellent, nearbroadcast monitor colours. Skin tones not perfect, but acceptable. Now the Sony plasma is connected via an HDFurydevice, as it only accepts HD via component inputs. I’m thinking the HDFuryconversion maybe helping.

Next test:
  • Try different modes:
Dynamic: yes, a bit of a taboo, but had somefairly interesting test measurements regarding colour quality
Normal: Colour Gamut is the same accuracy as ‘TrueCinema’ setting
The other modes didn’t seem to havemuch in terms of accuracy (Not even ‘Cinema’ mode)
  • Connect the Panasonic using component input viaHDFury


This does appear to be a source related issue.
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