Issue with calibrating Panasonic ST60 and skin tones - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 146 Old 11-16-2013, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, just looking for some quick advice here. I bought the cheap CalMan + C3 package a few months ago and have tried to calibrate my 50" ST60 multiple times. I always manage to get very good readings, but real world performance tells a different story. I find that the color balance seems to change from scene to scene. I am wondering if this is a byproduct of the brightness limiter, and if there's a way to get around this, or if I've calibrated something wrong. I used the smallest windows available to me to avoid the limiter activating during calibration. My main gripe is when watching anything on it, peoples skin tones go from being reddish to greenish between scenes, sometimes even on the same scene (skin can look "spotty" with very different shades, like patches of yellow on faces) It happens on all modes, cinema/custom, etc. Has anyone here dealt with or resolved this problem on this set? I'm about ready to call in a pro if they know what I'm talking about and are confident that they can fix this. I do notice issues in other areas as well, such as whites appearing too green in certain scenes then perfect in others. Any suggestions? Thanks
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post #2 of 146 Old 11-16-2013, 07:11 PM
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gamma

if the ST series has 10 pt wb user controls,
lower all three colors will raise the gamma.
in that percentage.raise all 3 will lower gamma.


the 60 series need 300hrs use before they settle in.
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post #3 of 146 Old 11-16-2013, 10:19 PM
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A suggestion ..do a fresh calibration with apl patterns (I've used 4%).Be gentle with changes on gamma and wb since there's a moving target with them because of the way that abl works. Try to get as neutral as possible with 2 point WB the 5% ire and than adjust the rest using 10p control wb and gamma. Do a 21 point calibration because a perfect 10p wb will have errors (in some areas bigger than 3) in others video levels between. Calibrate cms with 75s75a. Hope my English is understandable and my advice helps.
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post #4 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkamicht View Post

Hey guys, just looking for some quick advice here. I bought the cheap CalMan + C3 package a few months ago and have tried to calibrate my 50" ST60 multiple times. I always manage to get very good readings, but real world performance tells a different story. I find that the color balance seems to change from scene to scene. I am wondering if this is a byproduct of the brightness limiter, and if there's a way to get around this, or if I've calibrated something wrong. I used the smallest windows available to me to avoid the limiter activating during calibration. My main gripe is when watching anything on it, peoples skin tones go from being reddish to greenish between scenes, sometimes even on the same scene (skin can look "spotty" with very different shades, like patches of yellow on faces) It happens on all modes, cinema/custom, etc. Has anyone here dealt with or resolved this problem on this set? I'm about ready to call in a pro if they know what I'm talking about and are confident that they can fix this. I do notice issues in other areas as well, such as whites appearing too green in certain scenes then perfect in others. Any suggestions? Thanks

I have the exact same issue and my set has been professionally calibrated, in fact my calibrator was here for over 6 hours Friday night but was unable to totally mitigate the issue. Right now I am very disappointed with my ST60 is falls woefully short of my VT50 in that area. I have tried my own calibrations as well but without much success. I have used both APL and regular windows.

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post #5 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

A suggestion ..do a fresh calibration with apl patterns (I've used 4%).Be gentle with changes on gamma and wb since there's a moving target with them because of the way that abl works. Try to get as neutral as possible with 2 point WB the 5% ire and than adjust the rest using 10p control wb and gamma. Do a 21 point calibration because a perfect 10p wb will have errors (in some areas bigger than 3) in others video levels between. Calibrate cms with 75s75a. Hope my English is understandable and my advice helps.

Andrei and using this method you have consistent skin tones ? My biggest issue is a greenish tint to faces in lower apl scenes, it happens on both bluray and cable. Very frustrating to say the least.

Just to clarify when you say 5% you mean all 5% intervals correct not the 5% level itself ?

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post #6 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 07:52 AM
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May I suggest you instead of starting this thread you should just put it in the st calibration settings thread , it all relates to the calibration of the ST60. Just my opinion smile.gif
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post #7 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

gamma

if the ST series has 10 pt wb user controls,
lower all three colors will raise the gamma.
in that percentage.raise all 3 will lower gamma.


the 60 series need 300hrs use before they settle in.

+1., I have almost a hundred hours on my set right now so far I have only done a 2pt wb and a 10pt wb. Things are looking a lot better then standard factory. Still have 200hrs to get the set to settle down.
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post #8 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

May I suggest you instead of starting this thread you should just put it in the st calibration settings thread , it all relates to the calibration of the ST60. Just my opinion smile.gif
Sorry! If a moderator would like to merge this thread with that one I would be fine with that.

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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

+1., I have almost a hundred hours on my set right now so far I have only done a 2pt wb and a 10pt wb. Things are looking a lot better then standard factory. Still have 200hrs to get the set to settle down.
I have not been tracking how much time I've put on this set, if I had to guess I haven't even reached the 100 hour mark yet. I will give it much more time before I attempt another calibration. Thanks

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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I have the exact same issue and my set has been professionally calibrated, in fact my calibrator was here for over 6 hours Friday night but was unable to totally mitigate the issue. Right now I am very disappointed with my ST60 is falls woefully short of my VT50 in that area. I have tried my own calibrations as well but without much success. I have used both APL and regular windows.
And this was exactly what I did not want to hear. frown.gif Who worked on your set if you don't mind disclosing? I've read Chad B's review on here and he doesn't mention this issue or seem to notice it, and I haven't seen anyone else say anything similar.
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post #9 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 10:08 AM
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Chad did my calibration

Only thing that reduces it some what is over saturating red

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post #10 of 146 Old 11-17-2013, 11:05 AM
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Chunon, do what I said. Try to calibrate cms with 75s75a. Do saturation sweeps and see where are the bigest erors on CIE diagram. Then, without watching actual numbers, only positions of the saturation measures try to manipulate cms to get as close as possible to the targets. Do some color checkers. Oh, one more thing. What meter and what software do you use?
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post #11 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 03:34 AM
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Appreciate the advice but Chad calibrated to 75 75 with really low de's and we still had the skin tone issue. The cal chart looks great but real world viewing shows problems . So in order to mitigate it he had to over saturate red at 75. Even then I still have the issue although it is reduced. See it in darker scenes primarily .

I have an i1d2 that is profiled off a jeti spectro

Adding some additional info:

My first calibration was done approx 3 weeks ago with Chromapure 10 % apl windows with 22% apl, color was done with 10% standard windows, This calibration showed pretty frequent green tinting posterization. That would be the before report in the first attachment. The followup calibration was done with 5% apl patterns 18% apl after in the first attachment. This calibration although showing better color overall still exibited the green tint issue pretty frequently


http://www.avsforum.com/attachments/73359

The second calibration after much experimentation by Chad was done with 5% apl windows 18% apl for both greyscale and color. The mitigation was to oversaturate red which made a marginal improvement but I still have the green tint issue but it is not as frequent.

http://www.avsforum.com/attachments/73358

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post #12 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 05:07 AM
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. Over saturating red may help a little but now you have problems in other areas like skin tones maybe with a little redder tint or dull blacks looking a little brown, ect..

Having your D2 profiled by the Jeti also does not mean much, because your display shifts. Also the jeti placed at the same spot as a color meter will have a much smaller sample size area as a color meter, so you need to experiment with meter placement, plus when you profile you want to change your meters quickly with as little delay between the profiles. There again because of screen shifting.

You could maybe try to use normal color temp, get blue under control mainly with high blue control for gryascale, then balance your CMS as best as you can. Also try and stay away from using your detail gamma adjustments (if you have them) if at all possible.
Remember don't over adjust to get lower dE's or better looking charts. wink.gif..

But the biggest problem is Chad is gone and so is his meter and his shills. I am sure he gave it his best shot and he does have very good shills, but sometimes you have to try again. Lord knows I have had to try and try again.

ss
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post #13 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 05:26 AM
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Thanks for the suggestions but in this case it is bizarre that the teal world performance doesn't match the charts

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post #14 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 05:43 AM
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Why is your case so special about real world not matching the charts.

Fact is a good calibrator can do a calibration several different ways and have good charts and dE's but still the PQ is off.

Folks are very quick to blame there displays, but in most cases its not the display. I am sure you know that.

ss
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post #15 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 06:00 AM
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I should qualify that I guess, I know that because of the effect of abl that Plasma calibration isnt an exact science. Just haven't had this particular issue with the previous displays I have had . I find it curious that the OP is first one to notice the same thing I am seeing because it is very obvious. Maybe the performance characteristics are some how different this year and the traditional plasma window size assumptions don't apply. I am sure there is some combination of technique and window size that would fix my issue but I am out of ideas right now. I have been spoiled by Chad's efforts in the past because the result has been stellar. And this calibration is very good minus the skin tone issue.

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post #16 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Maybe the performance characteristics are some how different this year and the traditional plasma window size assumptions don't apply. I am sure there is some combination of technique and window size that would fix my issue but I am out of ideas right now.

This is what I have thought as well, and as I have told chunon in a PM I noticed an issue with grayscale calibration using very small windows not exactly carrying over once full screen patterns are displayed - and some shades of white appearing to have different white balance based on physical location on the screen - I'll try to get a picture of this tonight but I don't know how well it'll turn out.
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post #17 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 07:50 AM
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Yes I have had the Green issue in skin tones with my VT60, maybe not as much as you but enough to make me re calibrate and find the right combination.
Depending on how much of a issue you have, it can be a very fine line getting it right without adding a new issue..

I don't mean to flame you, but you simply don't have the tools (software/hardware) to completely fix your issue and maybe the experience. I say this because Chad does have one very good meter, good skills, but that still may not be enough because of the software he uses.

Yes window size is also important, I have found that a non APL 5.5% window size to work well. Also warming up your display and meter/s properly, and placement of your meter can help.
You also have to be mindful of IR, because it can make the window you are displaying different than the rest of your screen in brightness and color.

ss

btw, my post's also apply to the OP.
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post #18 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 08:29 AM
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I don't take it that way I know my meter is not the best and my skills although improving are still at the novice level. I have learned alot with this particular set. I don't have a way to use 5.5 % windows closest I can get to that is 5%. So you would recommend standard windows over APL ? I let me set warm up an hour with the meter on the display hopefully that is sufficient. Meter placement other than aligning with the crosshairs what would you recommend ? My only option is contact mode. I have Calman that will have to do because I am not going to invest in additional software, possibily a meter upgrade but then I lose the profile. I am just skeptical it can be remedied given what I have seen I guess my final question would be do you think this problem is fixable using the tv picture adjusmtments ? Not any external processing equipment, 6 axis CMS etc.

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post #19 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Having your D2 profiled by the Jeti also does not mean much, because your display shifts. Also the jeti placed at the same spot as a color meter will have a much smaller sample size area as a color meter, so you need to experiment with meter placement, plus when you profile you want to change your meters quickly with as little delay between the profiles. There again because of screen shifting.

the whole meter position and FOV matter is overly exaggerated IMO by some on the forum (just look a Michael's article on the matter if you don't believe me)

as far as single pass vs. multi-pass goes, if the screen is very uniform and both meters are placed near each other, the results should be very close... of course, if you do multi-pass and are very slow with switching meters (and the display is prone to fluctuating a lot even during short intervals), there will be some issues with the profile... this is why I like single pass better, since both meters read at the same time, can be placed right near each other, and you can also switch between them if needed without having to take one off and put on the other

Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Why is your case so special about real world not matching the charts.

Fact is a good calibrator can do a calibration several different ways and have good charts and dE's but still the PQ is off.

Folks are very quick to blame there displays, but in most cases its not the display. I am sure you know that.

ss

the ST60 doesn't calibrate as well/easily as other displays, such as the VT60... and pro calibrators have noticed this too

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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Yes I have had the Green issue in skin tones with my VT60, maybe not as much as you but enough to make me re calibrate and find the right combination.
Depending on how much of a issue you have, it can be a very fine line getting it right without adding a new issue..

I don't mean to flame you, but you simply don't have the tools (software/hardware) to completely fix your issue and maybe the experience. I say this because Chad does have one very good meter, good skills, but that still may not be enough because of the software he uses.

Yes window size is also important, I have found that a non APL 5.5% window size to work well. Also warming up your display and meter/s properly, and placement of your meter can help.
You also have to be mindful of IR, because it can make the window you are displaying different than the rest of your screen in brightness and color.

ss

btw, my post's also apply to the OP.

again, what works for the VT60 may or may not for the ST60... also if the D2 was profiled correctly (and the profile is not broken currently in CalMAN for some reason)... it should be accurate on his display within its rated luminance range

also, if Chad couldn't resolve this issue 100% (and he has probably calibrated a lot of these), it wouldn't be surprising to find out the issue can't be fully fixed with calibration (since ABL will always alter any calibration and there is no one perfect pattern size/type that is better overall than all the other ones, just good choices and bad choices)
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post #20 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 10:26 AM
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PlasmaPz80u thank your for your thoughts on this, truly frustrating

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post #21 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 10:39 AM
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Chunon,

Since you are frustrated with your ST60 I will trade you my calibrated GT30 and a Fitted NY Yankees cap for it.

The cap alone is worthy of the trade.biggrin.gif

BTW..What did you end up doing with your VT50 ,you were about as giddy as a school girl getting her first kiss when you got it.

(I know the feeling,I get the same way when I get a new tv)

Also, try masciors 4% apl patterns they are good for fixing green/iron like faces.

They helped me add blue cuts in the low end to offset the iron faces in custom mid mode on my set.
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post #22 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 10:49 AM
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Its a long story Peter, I had the yellow blob issue on the VT50 had the warranty exchange for a Vt60 authorized by Panasonic. But I got Amazon to take the set back and in the interim I had some unexpected expenses pop up and decided to go the ST60 route. Did you have green contouring around chins, face edges etc ? My problem is primarily in lower apl scenes. Chad was unable to fix it even after 6 plus hours of effort.

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post #23 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 12:36 PM
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Chunon..how do you find screen uniformity? Do you have any red tint in the middle?
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post #24 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 12:47 PM
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Screen uniformity is pretty good see some green on an all white screen but that is pretty normal when compared to past Pannys I have owned.

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post #25 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Screen uniformity is pretty good see some green on an all white screen but that is pretty normal when compared to past Pannys I have owned.

green in specific areas of the screen or just overall green in the white balance?
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post #26 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 05:57 PM
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I don't take it that way I know my meter is not the best and my skills although improving are still at the novice level. I have learned alot with this particular set. I don't have a way to use 5.5 % windows closest I can get to that is 5%. So you would recommend standard windows over APL ? I let me set warm up an hour with the meter on the display hopefully that is sufficient. Meter placement other than aligning with the crosshairs what would you recommend ? My only option is contact mode. I have Calman that will have to do because I am not going to invest in additional software, possibily a meter upgrade but then I lose the profile. I am just skeptical it can be remedied given what I have seen I guess my final question would be do you think this problem is fixable using the tv picture adjusmtments ? Not any external processing equipment, 6 axis CMS etc.

Yes I have seen a nice improvement in your skills with your post's.

5% is fine.
Yes non apl windows, but understand I don't use on screen mode. My thinking is the more you back up a meter off screen the bigger the read/sampling area is to a point, iow you have to find that sweet spot for the meter/s you are using.

What I have found with light or color meters is not only should you plug them into a usb port for 30 min or so, also for about 5 min or more use a full screen white pattern and put your meter/s on contentious reads. This tends to stabilize the meter.

Off screen mode. And yes you could try and use your meter in off screen mode, you would have to rig something up to hold your meter at the proper placement.

Yes CM is fine, I use it to adjust my grayscale as stated in my other post.

I don't know how really bad your issue is, the more we read and understand the more a issue could be blown out of proportion. imo Chad was probably your best shoot, but I do know that the Jeti has issues of its own when used on a ST/VT/ZT60. You may even ask him to come back (free of charge) when he is back in your area and give it one more shoot.

Yes upgrading your meter to a D3 and a I1Pro would get you close using CM and your display's adjustments, but still you need to try and try again, experiment and commitment. wink.gif

As far as a external processor goes, you don't need one except to process and store a large 3D LUT cube. imo the eecolor box is the cheapest and best at doing just that and only that. And yes I can understand why you would not want to spend anymore money, but the fact remains the more color points (up to 17^3) that are sampled the better your color can be fine tuned.

ss
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post #27 of 146 Old 11-18-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

the whole meter position and FOV matter is overly exaggerated IMO by some on the forum (just look a Michael's article on the matter if you don't believe me)

as far as single pass vs. multi-pass goes, if the screen is very uniform and both meters are placed near each other, the results should be very close... of course, if you do multi-pass and are very slow with switching meters (and the display is prone to fluctuating a lot even during short intervals), there will be some issues with the profile... this is why I like single pass better, since both meters read at the same time, can be placed right near each other, and you can also switch between them if needed without having to take one off and put on the other
the ST60 doesn't calibrate as well/easily as other displays, such as the VT60... and pro calibrators have noticed this too
again, what works for the VT60 may or may not for the ST60... also if the D2 was profiled correctly (and the profile is not broken currently in CalMAN for some reason)... it should be accurate on his display within its rated luminance range

also, if Chad couldn't resolve this issue 100% (and he has probably calibrated a lot of these), it wouldn't be surprising to find out the issue can't be fully fixed with calibration (since ABL will always alter any calibration and there is no one perfect pattern size/type that is better overall than all the other ones, just good choices and bad choices)

Well that my be true to a point, but we are not talking about a good calibration we are talking about getting the best your display can be.
Michael's test is flawed to a point, we are talking about Panasonic Plasma that's screen is not all that uniformed , he is talking about a LCD/LCD .
The read area on a Jeti is much smaller than on a color meter at the same distance. Now understand that the Jeti has a laser and you can pin point where the meter will read and how big the read area is. The D3/C6 has no laser so you are just guessing. Taking a read area to the extreme as the charts would suggest is something I would never suggest.
Lets take for example a color meter like the K10-A that has a laser and a light meter like the Jeti 1211 that also has a laser and using it to calibrate a ST/VT/ZT60, what you will find is that the Jeti 1211 has sync issues so profiling a K10-A to a Jeti using the K10-A's plasma table as I do maybe can help. So now adjusting the correct distance when profiling may have a impact on the outcome. And also consider the fact that you need a room with next to no ambient light, a calibration technician like Mike can't count on those conditions. Also understand I am not saying this will make a world of difference but it could help in your goal of the holy grail of calibration for your display.

Yes but again understand that the ST/VT/ZT screens are not all that uniform. Do you really think that using single pass on a non uniform screen when you are reading two different areas of the screen is a good idea. Plus the fact the a color meter probably needs less time to take a read that a light meter. I can do a multi-pass in a little over 2 min using a K10-A and a Jeti.

Yes and that has also been said about the VT60 when compared to the VT50.

I don't like to use if, come, maybe's, I want to know its the best it can be, and that includes profiling of meters.

I never said 100%, I said to a reasonable degree or the best the display can be.
I am not saying that the tips will make that issue go away, all I am saying is it may help.

ss
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post #28 of 146 Old 11-19-2013, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Yes I have seen a nice improvement in your skills with your post's.

5% is fine.
Yes non apl windows, but understand I don't use on screen mode. My thinking is the more you back up a meter off screen the bigger the read/sampling area is to a point, iow you have to find that sweet spot for the meter/s you are using.

What I have found with light or color meters is not only should you plug them into a usb port for 30 min or so, also for about 5 min or more use a full screen white pattern and put your meter/s on contentious reads. This tends to stabilize the meter.

Off screen mode. And yes you could try and use your meter in off screen mode, you would have to rig something up to hold your meter at the proper placement.

Yes CM is fine, I use it to adjust my grayscale as stated in my other post.

I don't know how really bad your issue is, the more we read and understand the more a issue could be blown out of proportion. imo Chad was probably your best shoot, but I do know that the Jeti has issues of its own when used on a ST/VT/ZT60. You may even ask him to come back (free of charge) when he is back in your area and give it one more shoot.

Yes upgrading your meter to a D3 and a I1Pro would get you close using CM and your display's adjustments, but still you need to try and try again, experiment and commitment. wink.gif

As far as a external processor goes, you don't need one except to process and store a large 3D LUT cube. imo the eecolor box is the cheapest and best at doing just that and only that. And yes I can understand why you would not want to spend anymore money, but the fact remains the more color points (up to 17^3) that are sampled the better your color can be fine tuned.

ss

Thanks for the tips ss

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post #29 of 146 Old 11-19-2013, 09:09 AM
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it seems that there are "a lot" complaints of the "greenish skin tones" in severals forums. The problem is a bad working CMS. When calibrating the TV with window pattern and You take a 21pt reading You should notice spikes in the inbetweens. This spikes only appear with color temperature set to warm. And If You take a reading with field pattern You should see a quite big color shift.

So far Masciors 4% APL pattern seems to work pretty well on this TV's regarding skin tones.
But You can also check if another color temperature setting (named "normal" on EU sets) is showing no spikes in the inbetweens. If so and If Your TVs controls allow getting the gamut to REC.709 and color temperature back to 6500k without side effects, You may consider using this mode for calibration.
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post #30 of 146 Old 11-19-2013, 09:19 AM
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What are the EU color presets Cool, Normal and Warm ? I haven't found any links could you point me towards one or two ?

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