I think I finally set ideal black and white using black tone - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I think and hope, that I've finally calibrated my display to near ideal blacks and whites or even slightly better without clipping each other , I was using the disney WOW disc and after using beginner and advanced pluges and checkboards , going back and forth changing and stressing, I think I have come to realize that I dont need beginner or advanced setting but EXPERT instead, as expert shows both checkerboards at the same time and also the grayscale at the bottom and it is alot easier to calibrate both sets.

I have also used black tone and selected the dark option , and by using this I was able to darken my blacks even more without having to change brightness numbers, which then means it bridges the gaps, because before I was crushing whites, so now thanks to black tone I can raise brightness to even out black and whites (bit confusing I know) so now on the checkboard, I'am on ideal white and black on both checkboards without clipping or showing a +1

Expert also shows a grayscale checkerboard at the bottom of the screen displaying hash markers, and it shows that after the ideal marker the super whites and blacks are also blending closer, so hopefully its a win/win. So all I'm left with is sharpness and backlight.

The only thing I was a bit worried about is people saying you shouldn't use black tone when calibrating , but if I dont I will crush whites, the black tone is there for a reason so I'am using it and it has definitely balanced out the blacks and whites better so I'm gonna use it.


Settings

Samsung UE32F5000

Backlight 10
Contrast 100 (high number, because of black tone)
Brightness 53
Sharpness 22 (mid/high number looks better for gaming)
Colour 44
Tint G50/R50

HDMI level - low
Black tone - dark
Dynamic contrast - off
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post #2 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 07:54 AM
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black tone affects blacks primarily, so if you were to compensate for it you'd need to turn up brightness (aka black level)

however, in my experience all black tone does on Samsung LCD/LEDs is crush the lowest levels of black (easily visible on a black clipping pattern... in other words, it's like turning brightness down several clicks)

therefore, there is no real point to using black tone to lower brightness and increasing brightness to restore shadow detail... it's just a waste of time
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post #3 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 07:55 AM
 
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Don't use black tone.

Try the following:
Mode - Movie
Color - 50 (or default), t
Color tone - Warm2
Tint - 50/50 (or default)
Sharpness - 0 (anything except for 0 or sometimes 1 will create artifacts/distort in games and videos)
Black tone - off
Dynamic anything - off
HDMI level - Low for gaming consoles, satellite TV, cable, BD players. With this setting, your lowest black = 16, and your highest white = 235
HDMI level - Normal for PCs. With this setting, your lowest black = 1, and highest white = 255
Backlight - 4-6 (or default)
Brightness - set to 50 (or default) for now
Contrast - set to 90 (or default)
Gamma - leave at default

Don't raise your backlight that far just yet. Backlight can raise and lower black levels, but it cannot crush/clip either. It should be the last thing to set after you find your black and white levels.

Using the settings I provided, use the Disney WOW disc to calibrate. You want black level 16 (if HDMI level is set to Low) or 1 (if HDMI level is set to Normal) to be barely visible/flashing. The same thing needs to happen with white level 235 (if HDMI level is set to Low) or 255 (if HDMI level is set to Normal).

I do not know exactly what the pattern looks like but it should provide at least several shades of black, including levels 16, 17, 18 and you should be able to distinguish them from each other. The pattern should also provide several shades of white - 233, 234, 235 and you should be able to to distinguish them from each other. To do so, you need to adjust only contrast and brightness.

Use brightness to find your lowest black and use contrast to find your highest white. Leave backlight alone for now. Once you find your lowest black using your brightness, look for highest white using contrast. Raising contrast will also raise your black levels. Just to give you an example, let's assume you reduced your brightness from 50 to 48 to get to your lowest black while keeping contrast at default (or 90 as an example). Then you started to lower your contrast to find the whitest white and you found it at 85. By reducing contrast from 90 to 85, you may have crushed your blacks. If so, go back to brightness and raise it until you find your new lowest black. Doing so may clip your whites and if it did - go back to contrast and find your new highest white. So, going back and forth until you can get both right.

It would also be helpful if you have a pattern like this one - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/contrast.php

You do not want to have a contrast so high that you can't distinguish each shade on the right side of the pattern or have contrast so low that you can't distinguish each shade on the left side of the pattern.

You should try to keep your brightness as low as possible and contrast as high as possible, while taking in consideration the overall luminance (commonly referred to as "too bright" or "too dim"). I find it best to use backlight to achieve that right luminance instead of reducing or increasing brightness & contrast. By keeping your contrast high and brightness low, you keep a higher contrast ratio. So, if you decide to use contrast and brightness to set your luminance, you may end up with lower contrast ratio. Some find it to be quite important to have the highest possible contrast ratio. Others do not.

However, nothing of the above will provide you with an accurate picture unless you actually buy a colorimeter and learn how to use it with HCFR or ChromaPure or CalMAN. You can also hire a professional to do it for you.
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post #4 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 07:57 AM
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I can tell by looking at your brightness setting (53), that's it's too high (which is due to using black tone and compensating for it).
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post #5 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Don't use black tone.

Try the following:
Mode - Movie
Color - 50 (or default), t
Color tone - Warm2
Tint - 50/50 (or default)
Sharpness - 0 (anything except for 0 or sometimes 1 will create artifacts/distort in games and videos)
Black tone - off
Dynamic anything - off
HDMI level - Low for gaming consoles, satellite TV, cable, BD players. With this setting, your lowest black = 16, and your highest white = 235
HDMI level - Normal for PCs. With this setting, your lowest black = 1, and highest white = 255
Backlight - 4-6 (or default)
Brightness - set to 50 (or default) for now
Contrast - set to 90 (or default)
Gamma - leave at default

Sharpness: that is not necessarily the case for the UE32F5000.
I have this Samsung model and I always leave Sharpness at 0 when doing this sort of basic calibration.
If I raise it by just 1 or 2 values it can "mask" the result of the Black and White Clipping patterns in the AVS HD 709 suite.
It provides the most natural picture and doesn't introduce any sort of artifact or distortion.
With the F5000 a setting of 0 with 1080p material is just fine.

HDMI Black Level: it should be set to Normal if the intent is to play games in video consoles because games are encoded in Full RGB (0-255) just like any other PC application. In this case the console must be configured to output Full RGB.

garagenation, it's really not necessary to use Black Tone setting, I doubt you are getting an higher contrast ratio than if you simply lower Brightness and Contrast.
Just because you can select an higher Contrast setting doesn't mean that your whites are actually brighter.
Clipping of whites is not a reason to use Black Tone.
Since I have the same model and it's also european I can share my settings with you if you so request, just to see how it looks.
I calibrated it with some optical comparators (some grey cards and a few sources of light) guided by the AVS 709 suite.
Of course, this is a long shot to guess if it will improve your picture as no 2 TVs look the same, but still it might be worth a try and a good learning experience for you.
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post #6 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 08:51 AM
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I did extensive testing on my Samsung ES8000 (2012 series samsung led/lcd) on those settings. Black tone does nothing except crush blacks. It basically remaps black from say 1-20 down to zero so your brightness looks like 0,0,0,0...20 instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6...20.
Here are my notes from my testing on es8000 if you are interested
Quote:
I did some limited testing on dynamic contrast, black tone, and black enhancer using the meter and the following reference images - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466036/calibrators-lets-talk-shadow-detail

Dynamic Contrast
I can see how dynamic contrast set to low might be able to enhance overall subjective picture quality. Unfortunately it is basically impossible to "calibrate" since it is dynamic in nature. I dont think using APL patterns really helps since you are just hiding the dynamic contrast function by measuring those patterns. Having this on to any degree does appear to crush blacks to a certain extent, but the benefit is that you get an arguably better range of bright color detail. Unfortunately it never goes the other way in providing any extra shadow detail. So maybe there is an arguable improvement, but you are really trusting that Samsung got it right in how they programmed it.
Verdict: Off, Low if you trust Samsung

Black Tone: As far as I can tell, this does nothing but crush blacks.
Verdict:Off under all circumstances

Black Enhancer (Movie Mode)
The effect of this is subtle and difficult to measure. I suspect that turning this on enables standard mode CE dimming to a degree inside movie mode. Overall contrast appears improved slightly with this on, and I cannot detect any negative impact in other readings.
Verdict: On? Off if the CE dimming in Standard mode bothers you
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post #7 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 09:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkl10 View Post

Sharpness: that is not necessarily the case for the UE32F5000.
I have this Samsung model and I always leave Sharpness at 0 when doing this sort of basic calibration.
If I raise it by just 1 or 2 values it can "mask" the result of the Black and White Clipping patterns in the AVS HD 709 suite.
It provides the most natural picture and doesn't introduce any sort of artifact or distortion.
With the F5000 a setting of 0 with 1080p material is just fine.

HDMI Black Level: it should be set to Normal if the intent is to play games in video consoles because games are encoded in Full RGB (0-255) just like any other PC application. In this case the console must be configured to output Full RGB.

garagenation, it's really not necessary to use Black Tone setting, I doubt you are getting an higher contrast ratio than if you simply lower Brightness and Contrast.
Just because you can select an higher Contrast setting doesn't mean that your whites are actually brighter.
Clipping of whites is not a reason to use Black Tone.
Since I have the same model and it's also european I can share my settings with you if you so request, just to see how it looks.
I calibrated it with some optical comparators (some grey cards and a few sources of light) guided by the AVS 709 suite.
Of course, this is a long shot to guess if it will improve your picture as no 2 TVs look the same, but still it might be worth a try and a good learning experience for you.

I disagree. I think all HDMI content is generally expected to be limited. Its a default setting even for console games. Xbox360 and PS3 are set to limited RGB as a default. Even for PCs, nVidia requires a registry hack to use 0-255 range over HDMI. Although properly set, 16-235 and 0-255 will look the same.

I am not sure what you mean by sharpness "masking". I know that 0 is the best option if 0 = no sharpness applied, but at times 1 = no sharpness applied, and I think in some rare cases 50 = no sharpness applied. Sharpness is applied one way or another though. I went into service menu to see what sharpness settings do, and if you do turn them all off completely - the image will be very blurry, text will be almost unreadable. The idea is to get sharpness to a point where you do not see any "halos" around black borders/objects.
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post #8 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 09:35 AM
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No, not all HDMI content is expected to be limited. This is only truth with video content and related equipement.
You can transport any type of material through HDMI and depending on the way that material is encoded, one should have the option to configure it one way or another.
Videogames and any other PC application are generally encoded in Full RGB and the systems in which these applications run should have the capability to map this encoding correctly to ensure accurate detail reproduction.
That's why HDTVs gives us the option to set it up to either Limited or Full RGB anyway.
Game consoles also allow to switch between one mode or the other because these devices can play either games or movies, being in Limited RGB by default doesn't really mean anything.
And the Nvidia GPUs limitation to Limited RGB through HDMI is simply result poor of judgement or negligence.

About sharpness I meant that this setting can create artifacts in the Black and White clipping patterns of the AVS 709 suite, falsifying the result.
In my UE32F5000.
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post #9 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkl10 View Post

And the Nvidia GPUs limitation to Limited RGB through HDMI is simply result poor of judgement or negligence.

I continue to wonder why people say this. It's not true for my GT430, GTX460, or GT520, and presumably later cards as well. They output the desktop as 0-255 over HDMI, and for video, WMC and XMBC in DXVA2 mode respect the Nvidia Control Panel setting for Dynamic Range. Note that "Limited (16-235)" for video does output the full range of 0-255 including BTB and WTW. The difference between it and "Full (0-255)" is that the latter expands 16-235 to 0-255, losing BTB and WTW but achieving consistency between video and the desktop.
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post #10 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I continue to wonder why people say this. It's not true for my GT430, GTX460, or GT520, and presumably later cards as well. They output the desktop as 0-255 over HDMI, and for video, WMC and XMBC in DXVA2 mode respect the Nvidia Control Panel setting for Dynamic Range. Note that "Limited (16-235)" for video does output the full range of 0-255 including BTB and WTW. The difference between it and "Full (0-255)" is that the latter expands 16-235 to 0-255, losing BTB and WTW but achieving consistency between video and the desktop.

Unless you've got an HDMI analyzer or another reference video source to compare them it's hard to know.

Also it can depend quite a bit on the hardware you plug into. Depending on the EDID from display, video cards can do very different things.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
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post #11 of 11 Old 12-03-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Unless you've got an HDMI analyzer or another reference video source to compare them it's hard to know.

Also it can depend quite a bit on the hardware you plug into. Depending on the EDID from display, video cards can do very different things.

I think the answer must be EDID vagaries, and seeing SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI mentioned so often without qualification seems strange to me because I haven't encountered them with my Sony LCDs and Panasonic plasmas.
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