Auto vs Native colorspace - which one needs less processing? Is Native actually native? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 12-11-2013, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My Samsung CCFL LCD has 2 options for colorspace - Auto, which determines colorspace based on the source, and Native, which uses a colorspace wider than that of the source. For Rec709 standard, I have to use the Auto option.

Is Native actually a native/raw colorspace for this TV that simply disregards the source and uses pure TV-based colorspace??? I need to know because I want the least amount of image processing for the Game Mode, which does set colorspace to Native as a default, but also let's me change it to Auto if I wish. I want to reduce input lag as much as possible, so that is why I wonder if I should use Auto or Native for that. With ArgyllCMS, I can make Native look like Auto if I wish.
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post #2 of 20 Old 12-11-2013, 09:36 PM
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I don't know much about the inner workings of tv's, and am more familiar with computer displays, but I imagine native colorspace uses the native primaries of the monitor. Auto would transform those primaries by mixing them together in certain ways. I'm not sure if it transforms them to Rec 709, or transforms them based on incoming metadata from the signal. My guess is the former.

As for ArgyllCMS, I don't think you'll be able to implement any color management system-wide. In combination with MadVR you'll be able to render video material with the applied transformations, but that's about it, as far as I'm aware.
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post #3 of 20 Old 12-11-2013, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, but I think I can actually calibrate TV colorspace in Service Menu when it is set to Native just like I can do the same for when it is set to Auto.
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post #4 of 20 Old 12-12-2013, 05:45 PM
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Really? Calibrate Native mode? Think about that statement for a bit. Let's assume that Native mode doesn't have any processing (maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, there is no way for you to know). If you calibrate Native mode, how would that be accomplished without processing???? And, therefore, how would a calibrated Native mode differ from Auto mode? If green in Native mode is very oversaturated, how would you make it accurate to Rec709? You'd have to add red and blue and possibly decrease luminance of all 3 colors. If you do that, you've just done exactly what Auto mode does.

LCD displays are slow. Gamers complain about them constantly. If you want fast response for gaming, get a DLP projector and screen. You can't make a great gaming platform out of a natively slow video display technology. Video processing is only a fraction of the problem. The display tech itself is slow. Some displays with modes that insert black between frames (by turning off the backlight) LOOK faster, though darker, but the timing the display isn't really any different, it will still lag action since the black insertion doesn't really change the "speed" of the panel, it just hides blur a bit.

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post #5 of 20 Old 12-12-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Really? Calibrate Native mode? Think about that statement for a bit. Let's assume that Native mode doesn't have any processing (maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, there is no way for you to know). If you calibrate Native mode, how would that be accomplished without processing???? And, therefore, how would a calibrated Native mode differ from Auto mode?

The Samsung Native mode seems to contain little to no processing. It is the only mode that can be used to produce consistent 3D LUT profiling and processing. If available, both Auto and Custom fight LUTs and invalidate the output of LUT processing.

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post #6 of 20 Old 12-12-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The Samsung Native mode seems to contain little to no processing. It is the only mode that can be used to produce consistent 3D LUT profiling and processing. If available, both Auto and Custom fight LUTs and invalidate the output of LUT processing.

Thanks. That is what I thought. I've seen other posts of people using LUT boxes like eeColor to use specifically with Samsung Native colorspace, which is not accurate by itself. I think in case of 3DLUT boxes, processing works differently from PCs. With my PC and TV, Auto and Native ended up with about the same 3DLUT results. Auto was more accurate with reds, and Native was more accurate with blues. Overall avg. dE were about the same. I think that Native mode improves response times and not just input lag.
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post #7 of 20 Old 12-12-2013, 07:56 PM
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You only use your TV on your PC?
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post #8 of 20 Old 12-13-2013, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, HTPC. It does all I want. I hate satellite and cable TV because of ads and the constantly replayed content. I prefer games, Netflix, and whatever I can buy or download movie-wise. I also have a G-Sync ready 120Hz LightBoost monitor that I use for competitive gaming, but its a TN screen with terrible colors. Skyrim with default low resolution textures looks way better on my TV than a heavily modified Skyrim with extra HD textures and models looks on my monitor tongue.gif .
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post #9 of 20 Old 12-13-2013, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The Samsung Native mode seems to contain little to no processing. It is the only mode that can be used to produce consistent 3D LUT profiling and processing. If available, both Auto and Custom fight LUTs and invalidate the output of LUT processing.

It's a little more complicated than that. If either Auto or Custom have smaller volumes than your target space then yes, they will "fight" the LUT process, some colors will simply not be accessible. But if you look in some of the SM adjustments fields (at least on my Samsung), Native mode is just another series of internal LUT values for each of the primaries and secondaries, they just happen to give you a larger volume to work with. You could for example do a custom calibration and set the primaries/secondaries just outside of Rec709 targets in both saturation and luminance and the 3dLUT correction process will work just fine.
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Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Is Native actually a native/raw colorspace for this TV that simply disregards the source and uses pure TV-based colorspace???

No, Native is just another setting of the internal CMS that generates the largest color volume the display can produce.
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post #10 of 20 Old 04-28-2014, 12:07 PM
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Just to add another data point to this discussion. Over the past week I've been trying to calibrate my Samsung 64F8500 using a Lumagen Mini3D, Chromapure and a D3 Pro meter. I kept using Samsung's"Auto" colorspace because lots of people recommended it. However, after doing a full 125 pt Gamut calibration I was always a bit dissatisfied by the results. Almost everyone looked like they had jaundice, with a slightly yellowish skin tone. I made multiple attempts, tweaking starting conditions and Chromapure options, but all results were similar. I then changed to using the "native" colorspace and that made all the difference. Skin tones are much more natural and other colors are properly saturated. I've left a big note to myself to always use "native" for future calibrations.
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post #11 of 20 Old 04-28-2014, 06:15 PM
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Biggest complaint always read is Samsung has often oversaturated red skin tones .Not yellow.
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post #12 of 20 Old 04-29-2014, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Biggest complaint always read is Samsung has often oversaturated red skin tones .Not yellow.
The slight yellowish skin tones was only after calibration. I think this implies that the blue primary was probably undersaturated at the start of calibration. Calibration can only remove saturation not increase it. By switching from "auto" to the "native" colorspace, the Samsung must have increased the saturation of blue which gave the autocalibration tools more "color" to work with from the start.
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post #13 of 20 Old 04-29-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kwolfman View Post

The slight yellowish skin tones was only after calibration. I think this implies that the blue primary was probably undersaturated at the start of calibration. Calibration can only remove saturation not increase it. By switching from "auto" to the "native" colorspace, the Samsung must have increased the saturation of blue which gave the autocalibration tools more "color" to work with from the start.

For Samsungs Auto color space is preferred. Use the CUSTOM color space and the tv's CMS controls to adjust the individual colors if it has them. What meter /software are you using? Does your software show you dE for say all three color characteristics. Luminance, Saturation and Hue? Also calibrating to 75% amplitude /75% saturation might improve your CMS tracking the color saturation across the gamut , from 25% saturation all the way to 100%. Perhaps your particular model of Samsung calibrates the colors better at 75% saturation. This might help with skin tones as well.
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post #14 of 20 Old 05-04-2014, 02:11 PM
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For Samsungs Auto color space is preferred. Use the CUSTOM color space and the tv's CMS controls to adjust the individual colors if it has them. What meter /software are you using? Does your software show you dE for say all three color characteristics. Luminance, Saturation and Hue? Also calibrating to 75% amplitude /75% saturation might improve your CMS tracking the color saturation across the gamut , from 25% saturation all the way to 100%. Perhaps your particular model of Samsung calibrates the colors better at 75% saturation. This might help with skin tones as well.
I think you may have missed my original message. My setup is a Samsung 64F8500 plasma display. I have a Lumagen Mini3D video processor connected via HDMI which sits between the output of my AVR and the input of the Samsung. Using my laptop connected to the Lumagen via an RS232 serial connection I can use the Chromapure software to control it. I have an X-Rite I1 Display Pro color meter which has been calibrated with a Klein K10a precision colorimeter.

Under the command of the Chromapure software, the Lumagen processor can display gray or color test windows on the Samsung. The I1 Display Pro meter can take a reading and the Chromapure software calculates a deltaE (CIE2000) for that window. The software calculates a correction and updates the Lumagen. The window is redisplayed, a new reading is done and if the error is within tolerance, the next gray/color window is displayed and the process repeats.

This all happens automatically. The Lumagen not only displays test patterns but it also maintains what is called a 3D LUT. The automated process of the software does this for 124 points in the color gamut. 3 for the Red/Green/Blue primaries, 3 for Cyan/Yellow/Magenta secondaries and 25 other points spread throughout the color Gamut. At each point it also tests and adjusts at 25%/50%/75%/100% saturations.(3x4 + 3x4 + 25x4) total correction points. In addition either a 11 or 21 point grayscale can also be adjusted along with the desired Gamma (I use BT.1886) The resultant 3D LUT is saved in the Lumagen which means it must always remain in line between the Samsung and the AVR. The Lunagen is used in place of the Samsung built-in CMS. It provides far superior amount of correction control.

The Samsung's CMS is largely unused. The normal way to run an automatic calibration is to first set the Lumagen to do NO correction, then use the Samsung's controls to adjust cell light/brightness/contrast. It's white balance controls are used to get a proper white for 30%/100% luminance. The colorspace is also chosen prior to making these adjustments. At this point I tell the Chromapure software to run it's 124 point calibration and generate a new 3D LUT for the Lumagen.

Which brings me back to my original message. I was commenting that during my first attempts at the full calibrations I chose the colorspace AUTO on the Samsung. The results always had a very slight yellowish tint to skin tones, even though the deltaE was less than 1.5 at each point. It bothered me. I ran at least 3 full calibrations all with the same results. I then reran the calibrations but this time I set the colorspace to NATIVE on the Samsung. This resulted in a perfect calibration (to my eyes) also with less than 1.5 deltaE. As I had mentioned in my previous message, external calibrations can not ADD saturation to any color. I was speculating the AUTO setting caused at least one of the primary or secondary colors to be somewhat undersaturated at the start, which might have caused a slight imbalance in skin tones. Using NATIVE did not have this issue to start with, resulting in a great automated calibration. However that may not be the case when only using the Samsung's CMS. The builtin CMS can only adjust the Primaries, at only one amplitude/saturation you chose (75%/75% is probably good when you have so little adjustment capability).
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post #15 of 20 Old 05-04-2014, 06:06 PM
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If you don't want to deal with input lag for gaming, I would suggest switching to either a plasma or some kind of DLP projector. 40 ms or less is considered good. Anything more than that, it starts to become noticeable. If you are really picky, get a monitor that has only 1-2 ms of lag. That is what MLG players use. 

 

As far as colorspace, check the Custom mode. If Custom looks more like Auto, go ahead and do the CMS and you should get superb results. However, sometimes Custom mode is the same as Native mode. For example, on my Samsung the Custom mode is like Native mode so the CMS didn't work for me. But on my cousin's Samsung, the Custom mode was like Auto so the CMS worked perfectly.

 

Today's televisions as far as I understand are not capable of handling the native colorspace. It does't match the rec.709 standards that we use. Maybe someone can further elaborate here on that. 

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post #16 of 20 Old 05-05-2014, 11:48 AM
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I thought I read somewhere that to get good results from an external 3d lut box the tv should be in native or wide gamut so the lut has room to work.
Also, I would think a video processor would add a certain amount of input lag but im not certain. And I thought that game mode set to wide or native had the least amount of processing but every mfr implements it differently. At the displaylag site the test a bunch of different tvs and monitors and have a database. For low input lag on tv sometimes it is pc mode, sometimes game, or game and pc mode on others. Alas, it seems nothing is certain in consumer display market lol

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post #17 of 20 Old 05-05-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodixe View Post

I thought I read somewhere that to get good results from an external 3d lut box the tv should be in native or wide gamut so the lut has room to work.
Also, I would think a video processor would add a certain amount of input lag but im not certain. And I thought that game mode set to wide or native had the least amount of processing but every mfr implements it differently. At the displaylag site the test a bunch of different tvs and monitors and have a database. For low input lag on tv sometimes it is pc mode, sometimes game, or game and pc mode on others. Alas, it seems nothing is certain in consumer display market lol

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Can't speak for other models but the the F8000 LED the correct mode for LUTs is Native.

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post #18 of 20 Old 05-05-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by nodixe View Post

I thought I read somewhere that to get good results from an external 3d lut box the tv should be in native or wide gamut so the lut has room to work.

That's a bit misleading. If the display is hitting all the reference points for red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, and yellow and you are NOT using Native mode (which hypothetically shows you the full uncorrected color space produced by the display, but who but the design engineers really know if Native mode really does that or not? The button may say Native, but that doesn't mean they could still be reigning-in 1 or more colors that might be way too wild in Native mode. So you can never know if an option named Native is really processing free or not.

One thing that is USUALLY the case, Native will produce a color space that is larger than the Rec 709/HD color space... it's just not guaranteed that the larger color space will be uniformly larger. It might be larger only towards the blue end of the triangle (or some other single color or 2 colors).

If your display is hitting Rec. 709 coordinates in a "non-Native" color space setting (like Rec. 709 or HD or whatever else the manufacturer might call it), using Native will accomplish nothing other than making larger corrections that are subject to "issues" that may not be immediately visible. So if the display can be calibrated to hit the Rec 709 reference points, don't use Native.

If the display has 1 or more colors UNDERSATURATED (measured point is INSIDE the color space triangle instead of along the edge of the triangle) your only option to open up the color space enough so that ALL colors are equal to or "larger" (OVERSATURATED) than the Rec 709 reference coordinates might be to use Native mode since it usually makes more saturated colors (but not necessarily for every display that has a Native option). Choosing Native when you don't NEED to use it means larger corrections for every color and that MIGHT lead to some visible image defects that are obvious or not-so-obvious. The point of calibrating AND using a LUT is to fix everything with the smallest corrections you can get away with and still hit all the reference points.

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post #19 of 20 Old 05-06-2014, 06:24 PM
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Thanks for the correction. I have no experience with 3d lut's yet as im still learning about regular (1d lut?) calibration and I was just regurgitating info.

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post #20 of 20 Old 05-07-2014, 12:12 AM
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I'd suggest a read of this as the 'optimal' pre-LUT calibration of displays:

http://www.lightillusion.com/display_calibration.html

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