Have You Taken the THX Video-Calibration Workshops? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Well if you want to learn about how to do this stuff, that 33 part and counting video training series is always available. Plopping yourself into an ISF or THX class will be considerably more expensive and paying more doesn't mean you get a better product.

regards

I'm interested in the actual THX certification, in addition to the knowledge. Whereas I am mostly self-taught in terms of the things I do, I also appreciate the value of a classroom environment. That's especially true when it comes to the hands-on aspect, checking out the gear, etc.

However, I also appreciate the value of tools (like video tutorials) that enable an autodidact (like me) to learn at my own pace.

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post #32 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

hi guys!
I hope everybody is having a great Christmas season.

We just confirmed that LG will be supplying a 55" OLED for the class. This will be a great display to play with.
Along with 6 front PJs, and about 12 other flat panels. fun stuff!!

I'm really looking forward to the workshop. I'm psyched to have some hands-on time with an OLED display.

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post #33 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 11:47 AM
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Greetings

Now plopping yourself into a professional class and not having to pay for it ... well that is something else. We'd all like to do that. wink.gif

Have fun at the class.

Regards

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post #34 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 11:55 AM
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Greetings

Now going into a physical class has benefits for hands on ... but only if there are skilled instructors there to assist you on that hands on. This sadly is not the case for all professional training programs especially if you are dealing with lots of students and one instructor. The higher this ratio is, the worse the hands on aspect becomes.

And going into a class where all the TVs are from the same brand doesn't help much either. (Fortunately not this class)

Going into a store for hands on with no help from anyone doesn't really add to "hands on knowledge" at all."

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post #35 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 12:05 PM
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Michael, you are no more a thx instructor ?

You are teaching in calibration class as an indépendant ?

gregg apart, who is the others thx instructor ?
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post #36 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 12:12 PM
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Who is the others calibrator from your new team ?

And what is the name of your new team ?

Thanks Michael wink.gif
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post #37 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Now plopping yourself into a professional class and not having to pay for it ... well that is something else. We'd all like to do that. wink.gif

Have fun at the class.

Regards
What difference does that make, in the context of this thread, Michael?
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post #38 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 12:22 PM
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It does and doesn't. Given that not everyone can afford to pay the $2000+ to attend a class like this.

But the class should be a lot of fun and people that have the financial means should take advantage of it. Don't waste your after class hours ... use that time well for playing with the gear. Don't go party ...

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post #39 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

....There are no more. It is just Gregg now.

I am offering my own branded calibration program with Ray Coronado and other THX calibrators that actually know how to teach this stuff.....
Michael, I am not, nor ever have been, paid by THX, the ISF, Joe Kane Productions, Lion AV, or your new venture, as you well know. Instead, my involvements have always been reliant on good will, plus mutual admiration and due regard for the unique merits and accomplishments of all these endeavors. All my participation and support over the years have been at my own expense. None of these organizations is without fault or shortcoming in one aspect or another. All have contributed to my personal and professional growth. Some of your comments in this thread are starting to concern me as both an industry colleague and an independent observer.
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post #40 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 12:47 PM
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Michael, honestly did you think that's the certification (isf, thx, another...) is mandatory to do pro calibration ? I know some of well knowned pro calibrator are not certified (like D-Nice).

I know that the certification is a plus for the calibration "business", clients will went more easily to a certified calibrator than the non certified one...

Thanks Michael smile.gif
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post #41 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 01:14 PM
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Greetings

... I'm the guy that hates everything and is critical of everything. I've been through ISF classes with 25-30+ people and 5 TVs and seen people completely lost. No help whatsoever from anyone. And then people touting great hands on time when 5 people are huddled around one TV ... tell me how much hands on time that gives people? Since the overall hands on in that class in 2 hours at best over two days. It's the nature of the beast, but no program will ever tell you that up front ... because they want your money. In fact they tell you anything you want to hear ... to get you to take the class ... That's the ugliness of the industry we are in. It's not all wine and roses and I talk about that stuff since no one else really does.

Realzven ...

The best calibrators out there in the industry are essentially self taught. They are self motivated to learn this stuff themselves because they love it. None of them went and took ISF and THX first ... (They may have done it afterward to collect letters, but that is all.) So no, you don't need any letters to be able to offer professional video calibration services. Unlike Engineering and the Medical world, this industry is not regulated ... and given the state of our calibration industry ... I would not want those that run the organizations regulating thing. They have the least amount of experience doing this stuff ... but they sit on a high horse and tell audiences how great they are ... (ISF-C anyone?)

Anyone can offer video calibration services ... THX and ISF letters are not needed. There are many small installers that cannot justify the price tag of these professional programs, but they would like to and can offer calibration services as an added service to their clients.

And then there are the many companies that collect these letters and use them as a ticket to deceive their clients ... (and the organizations really do nothing about this not that they can.)

Bottom line ... not necessary for offering professional services ... but it could help you get your foot in the door. The classes are also a good way to compare notes with others in the industry.

regards
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post #42 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 01:36 PM
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Thanks Michael wink.gif
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post #43 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

... I'm the guy that hates everything and is critical of everything. I've been through ISF classes with 25-30+ people and 5 TVs and seen people completely lost. No help whatsoever from anyone. And then people touting great hands on time when 5 people are huddled around one TV ... tell me how much hands on time that gives people? Since the overall hands on in that class in 2 hours at best over two days. It's the nature of the beast, but no program will ever tell you that up front ... because they want your money. In fact they tell you anything you want to hear ... to get you to take the class ... That's the ugliness of the industry we are in. It's not all wine and roses and I talk about that stuff since no one else really does.

Realzven ...

The best calibrators out there in the industry are essentially self taught. They are self motivated to learn this stuff themselves because they love it. None of them went and took ISF and THX first ...(They may have done it afterward to collect letters, but that is all.) So no, you don't need any letters to be able to offer professional video calibration services. Unlike Engineering and the Medical world, this industry is not regulated ... and given the state of our calibration industry ... I would not want those that run the organizations regulating thing. They have the least amount of experience doing this stuff ... but they sit on a high horse and tell audiences how great they are ... (ISF-C anyone?)

Anyone can offer video calibration services ... THX and ISF letters are not needed. There are many small installers that cannot justify the price tag of these professional programs, but they would like to and can offer calibration services as an added service to their clients.

And then there are the many companies that collect these letters and use them as a ticket to deceive their clients ... (and the organizations really do nothing about this not that they can.)

Bottom line ... not necessary for offering professional services ... but it could help you get your foot in the door. The classes are also a good way to compare notes with others in the industry.....
By saying how hateful and critical you are, are you implying that you are only accused of being so, or are you acknowledging such traits?

An instructor cannot read minds to know who needs help or not. Some people don't ask for help when they should. Students learn at different rates and have varying aptitudes as well. Just because you have an interest and curiosity about something, doesn't mean you will have sufficient aptitude, aggressiveness, talent, and discipline to excel at it.

The topic of this thread is the THX course. By "that class," what are you referring to? There is more to "ugliness" than marketing hyperbole. There is also more to integrity and honesty than being an iconoclast.

People spend the money for the ISF and THX courses for a variety of reasons. Such absolutist generalizations and presumptions, stretch credibility, are misguided and sometimes outright false.

Are there really that many companies that "collect these letters.....to deceive," Michael? Do they, with malice of forethought, purposely invest thousands of dollars in formal training in order to be deceptive, or are they naturally dishonest companies and use every advantage for ill-gotten gain? It's easy to make such sweeping statements without committing to specifying which ones.

There is a rhetorical device that is presumed by some to elevate oneself by criticizing others. I think you would be much better served concentrating on the all the admirable positive accomplishments you have accumulated over your lengthy and distinguished career.
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post #44 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 02:50 PM
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Greetings

Given that 4 out of 5 installation companies that I come across are crooked ... that is how I can say that some companies are out to collect letters. And I have even had conversations with owners of said companies that openly boast that they fake it. Are companies in it for the letters? You bet. All you have to do is take one look at the classes in China to understand that. Most attendees just go to have pictures with them standing next to the instructor ... nothing more. They don't understand much of what is happening in class and they certainly don't want to pay for the hardware and the software that it takes to do this. (Nature of a culture. It was very different in London.)

I'd like you to look back in time on all the posts and see how many people have been really objective in their analysis of the entire industry and are also willing to share those thoughts with everyone else. What are we talking about ... two or three people in an entire industry?

I am critical ... and the last angry man. I wear that as a badge of honor because I don't like the games ... and the deception ... and I want people to know about this.

Regards

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post #45 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Given that 4 out of 5 installation companies that I come across are crooked ... that is how I can say that some companies are out to collect letters. And I have even had conversations with owners of said companies that openly boast that they fake it. Are companies in it for the letters? You bet. All you have to do is take one look at the classes in China to understand that. Most attendees just go to have pictures with them standing next to the instructor ... nothing more. They don't understand much of what is happening in class and they certainly don't want to pay for the hardware and the software that it takes to do this. (Nature of a culture. It was very different in London.)

I'd like you to look back in time on all the posts and see how many people have been really objective in their analysis of the entire industry and are also willing to share those thoughts with everyone else. What are we talking about ... two or three people in an entire industry?

I am critical ... and the last angry man. I wear that as a badge of honor because I don't like the games ... and the deception ... and I want people to know about this.

Regards
I can understand why you would be so cynical when taking such a proctologist's view of our industry. That could be done with any craft, profession, or industry. The medical and engineering industries are profoundly regulated, as you point out. Tens of thousands of patients still die due to physician error ever year. How many of those physicians have letters with their practices? Is the medical field crooked because of malpractice by many? Do we take up our own medical care for this reason?
Granted, some do. Patients should beware and maintain due diligence when seeking a practitioner. Same goes for any professional service. Is there still malpractice and sometimes deaths due to faulty engineering design? Yes. Do engineers have letters to qualify for engagement in their profession? Of course. Do doctors and engineers train in order to make a living? Are medical schools and universities responsible for the failings of their graduates? Do they promote their degree programs as a means to make more money afterward? Partly.

THX training offers concentrated, structured, formal training for folks interested in advancing in the AV professions and industry. I recommend what they provide for such interested parties. Is THX responsible for individual faults or misrepresentations made by their students? Is it theoretically valid to claim that their students can make more money in the AV profession if they can demonstrate having completed formal training? Isn't it legitimate to say that it depends upon what the student does with the knowledge after the training? Does THX make this plain to students? Buyers of their services should beware and maintain due diligence when seeking a practitioner.

I admire and respect what the ISF and THX have done over the years to educate, advance, and elevate the AV industry. Gratitude seems to be a diminishing virtue in our culture. There are no saints among their staffs or students. Those organizations have filled a valued role in advancing the quality of our mutual industry, by any genuinely objective appraisal. Cynicism can be useful.....up to a point.
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post #46 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 07:12 PM
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Greetings

Point - Counter Point ... as it should be.

The THX program has gone out of its way to point out the negative elements of the industry in the past. The reason was that no one else would tell the students that part of the business. Whether it gets done in the future remains to be seen. The ISF certainly does nothing of the sort in their classes. They tend to paint as rosie a picture of calibration as possible ... to then convince people to buy $5000-$15000 in hardware and software ... where the real money is made.

We wanted to make sure that the students did not get into this business with blinders on. If they could get past all this so called negativity ... then they would be far better prepared for what was to come. The THX Video Calibrators have a far better survivability % compared to people taking the ISF classes. It's probably at about 50% two years down the road ... versus the 90%+ Failure rate for the other guys.

Don't forget that the THX program is the way it is because I was one of the people responsible for making it like that. A program put together to address the failings of the ISF program ... (Since our pleas fell on deaf ears within the ISF structure itself. And with the departure of the THX program over the past two years prior to this resurrection .. the ISF program went back to their old ways prior to the 2008 arrival of the THX program. They expanded to 3 days to meet match THX and rechristened themselves ISF-II ... now it is two days again and still ISF-II ... how is this two day program different than the old two day program? ... But it's ISF-II now ...)

Regards
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post #47 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 07:29 PM
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Easy guys. No school promises success in business. What we choose to do with our certifications is up to us alone. For those very few who choose to travel the country, God bless 'em all. Add in expenses and it is difficult to charge what must be charged. Value in the long run is determined by the customers. This is no easy business if one thinks the customers will be begging for "the best picture".

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post #48 of 62 Old 12-29-2013, 07:48 PM
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I do see the corelation with photography and display calibration. Before the digital explosion, calibration of monitors was critical so the image being printed matched up using the four color format (yellow, magenta, cyan and black). Photography is dependant on the media ie film, until the ones and zeros took over. Unless file sizes are ridiculously huge, digital representations of analog media (audio or photo) can reproduce the image's full content. Many users do not want to pay for calibration, I will do it if they really have money burning a hole in their pocket. I don't own all the equipment neccesary but can rent what I need. Careful installations and user preferences might leave some shaking their heads as some people don't see or hear as well as the rest of us.
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post #49 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 09:58 AM
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What would you guys recommend for somebody that would love to calibrate his 60" LG 60LM7200 3D Smart TV, but has no earthly clue where to start :)

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post #50 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 10:21 AM
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What would you guys recommend for somebody that would love to calibrate his 60" LG 60LM7200 3D Smart TV, but has no earthly clue where to start smile.gif
Read this from the "sticky" threads above:

'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933

Hire a proven professional calibrator, and/or get the 'Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition' Blu-ray Disc and study its contents as well as the additional information about the test materials on their web site.
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post #51 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 10:25 AM
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What would you guys recommend for somebody that would love to calibrate his 60" LG 60LM7200 3D Smart TV, but has no earthly clue where to start smile.gif

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/03/poor-tv-picture-quality-not-happy/

This article lays out your only reasonable alternatives.

1. Buy a test disc and learn how to use it. (Cost can be free (AVSHD) to about $40 )
2. Buy a test disc and software and hardware ($150-$400+) and learn how to use all that. You will get a better result eventually ... may take a year of learning to get there. Scrounging for tidbits of information here and there. (Cost for you time = $0)
3. Hire a good professional calibrator to get your TV set up right ... the first time. ($300-$500) And you get the confidence as well since he educates. (Bad ones don't.)
4. Buy a test disc and software and hardware ($150-$400+) and pay for professional level training on how to do this. Cost of training is $100 to $2000+ and paying more does not always mean you get a better product. (Assumes cost of your time is worth more than the cost for training)

regards
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post #52 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 04:00 PM
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post #53 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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It will definitely be interesting to see what the workshop turns out to be. After all, I'll be writing about the experience. I'm definitely intrigued by all the negative viewpoints expressed here. I'm interested in what my own experience will be like.

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post #54 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 05:52 PM
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It will definitely be interesting to see what the workshop turns out to be. After all, I'll be writing about the experience. I'm definitely intrigued by all the negative viewpoints expressed here. I'm interested in what my own experience will be like. I suspect it will fall somewhere between the idealized marketing pitch and the heckling of detractors.

Expect to experience a very good training course. This isn't Amway as was mentioned above. There are very few courses held world wide each year and only a small number of students. It's not about profits for THX.

Write about it all you want but it's already been done -- http://www.thxvideotech.com/forum/content.php?119-ISF-II-and-THX-Classes-My-Experience-A-Review-by-AVS-Moderator-Jon-Spackman
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post #55 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 06:08 PM
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I will continue because I love to calibrate and I do it for the art.

Isn't that funny? Isn't it strange how one enjoys every movie now even if it has a terrible script. It looks so pretty.
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post #56 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It will definitely be interesting to see what the workshop turns out to be. After all, I'll be writing about the experience. I'm definitely intrigued by all the negative viewpoints expressed here. I'm interested in what my own experience will be like. I suspect it will fall somewhere between the idealized marketing pitch and the heckling of detractors.

Expect to experience a very good training course. This isn't Amway as was mentioned above. There are very few courses held world wide each year and only a small number of students. It's not about profits for THX.

Write about it all you want but it's already been done -- http://www.thxvideotech.com/forum/content.php?119-ISF-II-and-THX-Classes-My-Experience-A-Review-by-AVS-Moderator-Jon-Spackman

I checked out that piece. Mine will be a bit more in depth. I expect to have a positive and rewarding experience. Then again, I always expect quality... you know what I'm sayin'?

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post #57 of 62 Old 12-30-2013, 07:05 PM
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Yes, I know what you mean. Just don't go unprepared as there is little hand holding and they don't make promises. My instructors were the Loewen and Chen duo and they were both excellent.
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post #58 of 62 Old 12-31-2013, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I checked out that piece. Mine will be a bit more in depth. I expect to have a positive and rewarding experience. Then again, I always expect quality... you know what I'm sayin'?

I'll be interested in reading your review.

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post #59 of 62 Old 01-02-2014, 09:37 AM
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hi guys

I also wanted to mention that we will be doing a class in conjunction with CEDIA and ISE in Amsterdam on Feb 6 7 and 8th.

Quantum Data will be teaching a 3 hour HDMI Trouble Shooting class after setup in Vegas on Jan 9th. If there is the interest they have also offered to teach it after setup in Amsterdam too.

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post #60 of 62 Old 01-03-2014, 07:41 AM
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Runco will be providing an LED PJ with anamorphic lense.

Panamorph will also be supplying a fixed anamorphic lense for the Epson 6030.

We will also have a JVC X75 for doing mechanical 2.35 zooming.

Fun stuff, only 1 week away.

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