Please critique and help with first calibration efforts :) - AVS Forum
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Old 12-25-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung PN58B560 - No CMS available, only White Balance offset/gain

Panasonic BDT-210 blue-ray player - Advanced chroma turned off and RGB standard setting applied

AVCHD calibration disc burnt to DVD since I do not have a blu-ray burner

X-Rite EODIS3 i1Display Pro

Calman software V4


I did a fair amount of reading beforehand and finally decided to jump in last night and try my hand at home calibration. It certainly took awhile to get the hang of using the program but I finally got used to it and made it through a complete calibration. Please take a look at my before and after pictures and let me know if you have any suggestions or critiques on how to improve my results. I am going to give it another attempt tomorrow morning.

One problem that I had was that I could only get the display to output 31FL when properly adjusted for the pluge pattern. This was with contrast maxed out at 100 and with a brightness that just made bars 17-25 flash. How can I get the light output higher without sacrificing accuracy or is this just a limitation of the display?

The other problem was that when playing the DVD on the blu-ray player, the brightness of 36 was correct in regards to seeing the correct black bars. However, once I turned off the blu-ray player and watched regular TV, I had to take the brightness up to 49 to look like it did when playing the DVD. Why is there such a big difference between brightness settings when using the player VS watching TV?

Lastly, I have a copy of DVE HD-Basics on blu-ray but the test patterns only go in increments of 20% and not 10% like the AVS disc. Should I be using this instead or does it not matter?



BEFORE













Final Settings

Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 10
Contrast: 100
Brightness: 36
Sharpness: 20
Color: 48
Tint: G50/R50
Color Tone: Warm2
HDMI Black Level: Normal
Black Tone: Off
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Gamma: 0
Color Space: Auto
Flesh Tone: 0


White Balance
R-Offset: 25
G-Offset: 30
B-Offset: 25
R-Gain: 25
G-Gain: 14
B-Gain: 25


AFTER








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Old 12-25-2013, 12:31 PM
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I am in no way an experienced calibrator or a pro, but I noticed some things and wonder about some other things.

First, did you measure your whitebalance before starting the whitebalance calibration using different colortone settings (cool/normal/warm1/warm2 etc) to see which came closest to a proper whitebalance/grayscale? The reason I ask is because your RGB High and RGB Low settings seem pretty extreme.
Second, isn't your sharpness way too high. I usually have it at 1, 2 or off. 20 seems high.
Third, what is your max contrast number. Again 100 seems high, and too high could affect your displays performance negatively.

That said, it looks like a big improvement, and for a first attempt looks like it is not bad at all.

Be prepared to calibrate your tv many many times, to get the hang of calibrating as well as to get to learn your particular displays quirks.

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Old 12-25-2013, 01:04 PM
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Sharpness is somewhat of a personal preference... anywhere from 0-20 should be fine. Contrast is just a number. As long as there isn't any clipping, discoloration, and you don't experience eye fatigue, 100 is fine. His white only measures 30.7fL.

Is your player outputting YCbCr or RGB? If RGB, is it set to the same range as your display? RGB Full 0-255 = HDMI Black Level Normal, RGB Limited 16-235 = HDMI Black Level Low. Your Brightness setting seems odd.

I would use the AVSHD709 window patterns. Or the window and/or APL patterns from the other free discs on these forums (GCD, Masciors disc or CMD).
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:11 PM
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I would very much disagree with sharpness being a personal prefarence if calibration is your goal. The appropriate testpattern definetly shows artifacts when you raise sharpness too high. Setting sharpness can be done as accuratly as setting brightness
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:18 PM
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I said somewhat. Yes artifacts appear if set too high, but some people prefer a slightly sharpened picture and there's nothing wrong with that. Sharpness isn't set in stone like black level is (digital level 16 for video).
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:30 PM
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As I understand it, you set sharpness to where artifacts appear, then take it back until they are gone. It would seem that a perception of a slightly sharpened picture means nothing more than actually introducing artifact which make the picture seem sharper, but actually remove detail.

To clarify, I am not so much disagreeing with you as I am trying to understand it. As I said, I am far from an experienced calibrator.
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:41 PM
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Yes, that's how you typically set the Sharpness control. Artifacts that appear will be things like ringing and aliasing. Artificial sharpness doesn't add detail, but it does give a perceived sharpness boost that some people like. I'm not one of those people, but some do prefer a slightly sharpened picture. 0-20 for Samsung displays is generally an acceptable range IMHO. On some displays, the 'neutral' point is actually above 0.
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Old 12-25-2013, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies thus far.

Before doing the calibration, I always used to have the sharpness set to 8. When looking at the sharpness test pattern, I was able to bring up the sharpness to about 25 before I started to see any noticeable ringing or blurriness around the lines and letters. I left it at 20 just to try it out and see how it looked but haven't had much time to watch it yet.

I originally measured all factory color modes and warm 2 with auto color space measured at 6,120 which was the closet of all modes to 6,500.

Would changing my gamma curve to 2.3 - 2.4 raise the overall FL or is it best to stay at 2.2 since the response is so flat there?

I remember seeing a review on the PN63550B by Chad B and he was able to get 45 FL out of the same set by doing user menu adjustments. Would my set have dimmed that much after three years or so that I can now only get 31 FL?

Also, I changed the player from YCbCr to RGB standard before starting the calibration. I remember reading in the AVCHD thread that this was the correct way? Also, any idea on what a DirecTV HR24 box outputs? There are no adjustments or settings to change from RGB/YCbCr that I can see.
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:24 PM
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If your Samsung was like my old LCD, then the gamma slider is kind of backwards... increasing the slider actually lowers the gamma. But to answer your question, gamma shouldn't affect your white, it's only supposed to affect the brightness between black and white, although that's sometimes not the case. A higher gamma actually lowers mid brightness.

The pattern size (due to the ABL on plasmas), panel size and the meter used can all be factors in what your white measures. The smaller the test patch is on the test pattern, the brighter your white will measure. And generally smaller panels are a bit brighter than larger panels.

In most cases, YCbCr is recommended for video players. If your DTV box doesn't have an option, then it's most likely outputting YCbCr. Your Brightness control seems low which makes me think that your RGB levels weren't matched during the calibration. That would explain why your DTV picture looked wrong.

I would set your player back to YCbCr and unfortunately redo the calibration.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Rahzel. I did some searching and found out that the HR24-100/200 outputs YCbCr 4.4.4. The 500 series actually outputs RGB but I do not have that one. I changed the setting in the BDT-210 to output YCbCr 4.4.4 instead of the RGB standard that it was originally on and the brightness matched on both the blu-ray player and DirecTV this time.

I made a second attempt at calibrating this evening. This time I used the "windows" patterns and after the calibration I had a light output of 39FL, which is just about perfect.

One question I have is in regards to the RGB Balance chart. On the left hand side, it goes from 80-120. What does this scale represent and is it better to to be higher or lower on this scale? Also, is the most important aspect of this chart matching the Red Green and Blue lines so they are as close to each other as possible? Does it matter if the line"s" aren't exactly straight all the way across but are very close together?

Please take a look at my second attempt results and let me know what I need to concentrate on correcting in round three or if these results are considered accurate. Thanks!



*BEFORE*











AFTER







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Old 12-26-2013, 02:40 AM
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The goal of a grayscale calibration is to evenly balance RGB to get as close to white as possible (D65, xy coordinate 0.3127/0.329) throughout the entire luminance range. The scale on the left shows you how close each primary is to its target. You want to get them all as close to 100% as possible using your 2 point white balance controls.

Here's a basic guide to help you understand things better: http://www.avsforum.com/t/852536/basic-guide-to-color-calibration-using-a-cms-updated-and-enhanced

One thing I would change is I would lower your Color control a notch or two. The Color control usually controls color luminance for the most part and your primary and complimentary colors are a bit high (as seen in the Gamut Luminance chart). Other than that, it looks good given the available controls.

I would also set your player to 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4. It shouldn't really affect your calibration much (if at all) but you might want to re-check everything. Reason being is that 4:2:2 is the closest to the native color space of video/Blu-Rays (YCbCr 4:2:0). You can also still use RGB if for some reason it looks better than YCbCr... you just have to make sure your levels are matching (read my first reply on how to do that). But like I said, YCbCr 4:2:2 is usually the best setting for video players.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:19 AM
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They say that anything below a dE of 1.8 is undetectable with the human eye. They also say that blue errors are the least visible errors. The dE here are highest at 60% and 70%, but are below 1.8, and are mainly because of too much blue. Pretty good I'd say.
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

They say that anything below a dE of 1.8 is undetectable with the human eye. They also say that blue errors are the least visible errors. The dE here are highest at 60% and 70%, but are below 1.8, and are mainly because of too much blue. Pretty good I'd say.

Hello, I have posTED some interesting visible examples of dE differencies there.

By measuring only 6 Color Points that have dE below 1.0 means nothing, you have to measure more color points, like 5-Step Saturation/Luminance/Color Checker etc. as a minimum test.... to see how a display performs by calibrating only 6 Points of the 10.8 Million possible colors of a video signal.

Cube Presentation of a typical calibration based at display internal controls (11-Step Grayscale + 1-Point CMS) can be found here.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Old 12-26-2013, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Hello, I have posTED some interesting visible examples of dE differencies there.

By measuring only 6 Color Points that have dE below 1.0 means nothing, you have to measure more color points, like 5-Step Saturation/Luminance/Color Checker etc. as a minimum test.... to see how a display performs by calibrating only 6 Points of the 10.8 Million possible colors of a video signal.

Cube Presentation of a typical calibration based at display internal controls (11-Step Grayscale + 1-Point CMS) can be found here.

I have done some further testing with the color differences patches you linked above Ted. There is no doubt there are differences when viewing them on my laptop with my face 1-2 feet from the screen. A very interesting test i did was put your laptop on your tv console. Now go and sit on your couch or chair from your normal viewing distance. It is interesting how some of these color differences diminish greatly when sitting at a normal distance. Its even more interesting with different viewing conditions. The color patches are completely different when viewing during the day than at night....or even at night with just a table lamp on behind me. Viewing environment plays a big role IMO. These were my observations anyways, maybe your viewing conditions may give you different results...
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Good morning everyone. I have done a couple more calibrations on my set to practice and got all dE's below 1 with all being around .5 except at one point. The picture does indeed look drastically different and much improved over the original movie mode settings. However, I notice that colors seem extremely saturated and bright with red and yellow being the worst. Anything that is red in the programming immediately jumps out at you and looks almost cartoonish.


Rahzel, whenever I look through the blue filter to adjust for tint/color at the end of the calibration, there are no adjustments needed as it looks perfect. If I turn down the color control from 50 to about 43 when watching TV, it looks toned down but causes errors when going back and looking through the blue filter. What causes the colors to look overly saturated and carrtoonish after doing a calibration? Is there anything I can do to fix these overly bright colors during calibration or I am stuck with them since I do not have a full CMS available?


When talking about the issue, I found this excerpt from an article here on AVS.


"Why can't I fix oversaturated colors by simply turning down the main Color control?

This issue comes up often in the context of popular displays that exhibit a strongly oversaturated gamut. The JVC RS1/2/10/15 front projectors are perhaps the best example.

Lacking a full-featured CMS, one is tempted to try to alleviate the problem by simply turning down the main Color control. Turning it down slightly may help somewhat, but anything more than a very small adjustment is likely to make the color worse rather than better. Why? The reason has to do with the fact that, contrary to popular belief, color controls are not engineered to adjust saturation. They are Chroma gain controls. Turn the color up, you increase the chroma of the signal. Turn the Color down, and you decrease the chroma. Although related, chroma and saturation are not the same.

Perhaps the best way to think of the difference is this: Imagine a red patch of color illuminated under a strong, bright light and then imagine the same patch seen under a dim light. As you change the lighting conditions, the red appears more or less colorful. This is chroma. However, the saturation of the color does not change even as its brightness changes dramatically. It will not plot differently on the CIE chart, despite the fact that it is less colorful and significantly dimmer.

Interestingly, the reverse is not true. If you lower the saturation of red, the chroma decreases to approximately the same degree. A less saturated red seems proportionally less colorful, but a less colorful red is not necessarily proportionally less saturated. Consider the two examples below."
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:46 AM
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The blue filter isn't the best way to check color. Use your meter instead.

You can only do the best with what you got. As I said above, on most displays, the Color control mainly controls color luminance. I can only speak for my displays, but it can also control color saturation a bit, too. As per your Calman report when you had the Color control set to 49, your gamut luminance was high across the board and some colors were a bit oversaturated. 47 or 48 would probably be better.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B Feelgood View Post

Good morning everyone. I have done a couple more calibrations on my set to practice and got all dE's below 1 with all being around .5 except at one point. The picture does indeed look drastically different and much improved over the original movie mode settings. However, I notice that colors seem extremely saturated and bright with red and yellow being the worst. Anything that is red in the programming immediately jumps out at you and looks almost cartoonish.


Rahzel, whenever I look through the blue filter to adjust for tint/color at the end of the calibration, there are no adjustments needed as it looks perfect. If I turn down the color control from 50 to about 43 when watching TV, it looks toned down but causes errors when going back and looking through the blue filter. What causes the colors to look overly saturated and carrtoonish after doing a calibration? Is there anything I can do to fix these overly bright colors during calibration or I am stuck with them since I do not have a full CMS available?


When talking about the issue, I found this excerpt from an article here on AVS.


"Why can't I fix oversaturated colors by simply turning down the main Color control?

This issue comes up often in the context of popular displays that exhibit a strongly oversaturated gamut. The JVC RS1/2/10/15 front projectors are perhaps the best example.

Lacking a full-featured CMS, one is tempted to try to alleviate the problem by simply turning down the main Color control. Turning it down slightly may help somewhat, but anything more than a very small adjustment is likely to make the color worse rather than better. Why? The reason has to do with the fact that, contrary to popular belief, color controls are not engineered to adjust saturation. They are Chroma gain controls. Turn the color up, you increase the chroma of the signal. Turn the Color down, and you decrease the chroma. Although related, chroma and saturation are not the same.

Perhaps the best way to think of the difference is this: Imagine a red patch of color illuminated under a strong, bright light and then imagine the same patch seen under a dim light. As you change the lighting conditions, the red appears more or less colorful. This is chroma. However, the saturation of the color does not change even as its brightness changes dramatically. It will not plot differently on the CIE chart, despite the fact that it is less colorful and significantly dimmer.

Interestingly, the reverse is not true. If you lower the saturation of red, the chroma decreases to approximately the same degree. A less saturated red seems proportionally less colorful, but a less colorful red is not necessarily proportionally less saturated. Consider the two examples below."

One thing you could try is calibrating your color to 75%A/75%S using GCD .calibrating to 75/75 will give you more accurate color points from 75 percent saturation to 25% saturation. The colors should track more linearly. Sometimes 100%saturation is good and all but lower saturation points will be off. Some tv track better their color saturation when you calibrated to say 75% instead of 100%. 100% saturation will be over saturated though. If you have a full featured CMS. I am not sure if this particular model of samsung has one but if it does. Leave your color controls alone and adjust using just your CMS or Color Management System. I know that blue filters can be inaccurate it's better to use blue only mode if you are going to adjust your color using the color/tint controls.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:00 PM
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His set doesn't have a CMS. All you can really effectively control is color luminance. But I agree, 75/75 patterns with CalMAN set accordingly is what I would do.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:20 PM
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Minimize DeltaL of the primaries with Color control and deltaH of the secondaries with tint, that's about all you can do. Agree on the 75/75 patterns for adjustment. OP are you using APL or regular window patterns for your color work ?

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Old 12-30-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for replying everyone. Below are the results of my latest attempt from last night. I have lowered the color control from 49 to 47 and it made a little difference but red still seems to pop off the screen and is pretty noticeable compared to all other colors.

"One thing you could try is calibrating your color to 75%A/75%S using GCD." Please excuse my ignorance but exactly what does this mean and what needs to be done that is different when compared to the regular CalMAN workflow? What do I need to change and how should it be set up? Which patterns on the AVS disc should be used?

I have been using all window patterns as suggested by this guide on Spectracal.com. Should I be using APL instead of windows?
http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/files/Website/Website%20Articles/DIY%20Video%20Calibration%20How-To.pdf

"Window patterns are small rectangular boxes occupying anywhere from 11-20% of the
screen with the pattern inside them. These are used mainly for CRT and plasma displays.
Plasma displays have a feature built in called the Auto Brightness Limiter or ABL. This
feature was added to plasma displays to reduce the power usage of the panel. When there
is a really bright scene or the APL (Average Picture Level) is high, the image brightness will
be reduced to lower the power consumption. So when calibrating a plasma. t's best to use
the window patterns so that the ABL doesn't kick in.
For all other displays, full field or full screen patterns are fine."















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Old 12-31-2013, 05:42 AM
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You are not going to find the patterns you need on AVS709, the GCD disc would have them. 75 amp 75 saturation. Not sure where you do 75/75 in Calman 4 but in Calman 5 it is only in the quick analysis workflow or in custom workflow. Also are you using the rec 709 colorspace or the native one on your display ? APL vs standard windows that debate rages endlessly here lol You might try APL especially for color, I see you are not using the tint control that has no effect on your secondaries ?

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