A comparison of 3DLUT solutions for the eeColor box - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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Display Calibration > A comparison of 3DLUT solutions for the eeColor box
sotti's Avatar sotti 11:18 AM 04-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Joel,

Just wondering about the problem I currently experience with my Sharp.
The Panel is simply incapable of hitting full saturation for Red and Blue. Because of this Panel fault hopefully DLC will recognise the difference between linearity and a Panel charactoristic?

Yes that concept of native response is absolutely built-in to DLC.

PE06MCG's Avatar PE06MCG 11:53 AM 04-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yes that concept of native response is absolutely built-in to DLC.

Thanks Joel,

Certainly I do not get any problems at the moment with 3D LUT calibration via eeCB so I was worried that DLC may force the software to pay more attention to what is a Panel problem with not only loss of time but other more serious problems.
For instance if I try to Autocalibrate at 100% saturation values via my Duo the software inevitably gets lost trying to get particularly Red correct. Time is lost and it usually abandons the process with Red finishing up a different colour altogether.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 01:33 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It's Dynamic Linearity Correction, and it's part of the 5.3.5 update.

As part of our stepped profiling process we are able to detect where the display is no longer behaving linearly and dynamically add additional points until we can accurately predict the edges of the non-linearity. This is not only increasing the overall accuracy of a calibration, but it is also much more efficient as we can run fewer base calibration points.

No more hunting around for the "right" patch set for your display. With CalMAN, you'll get perfect patch distribution with a set the built for YOUR display.

We will post a indepth independent research paper done on our DLC and how well it does in a couple of days. We were slammed at NAB. More badge scans and demos given on the first day than all of last year and last year was a very good year for us.

Interesting upcoming feature, but this requires a 3D-LUT Box with Large 3D-LUT Table size like eeColor (64x64x64) or Fuji IS-Mini 3D (21x21x21) or AJA LUT-Box (17x17x17)? or current Lumagen Radiance (5x5x5) or Lumagen Radiance 20xx (9x9x9) can use that feature?
sotti's Avatar sotti 08:20 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Interesting upcoming feature, but this requires a 3D-LUT Box with Large 3D-LUT Table size like eeColor (64x64x64) or Fuji IS-Mini 3D (21x21x21) or AJA LUT-Box (17x17x17)? or current Lumagen Radiance (5x5x5) or Lumagen Radiance 20xx (9x9x9) can use that feature?

For the 5x5x5 it isn't relevant since 125 points is about the baseline minimum we need for the DLC algorithm.

But it certainly can be applied to the 9x9x9 lumagens.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 09:28 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Interesting upcoming feature, but this requires a 3D-LUT Box with Large 3D-LUT Table size like eeColor (64x64x64) or Fuji IS-Mini 3D (21x21x21) or AJA LUT-Box (17x17x17)? or current Lumagen Radiance (5x5x5) or Lumagen Radiance 20xx (9x9x9) can use that feature?

For the 5x5x5 it isn't relevant since 125 points is about the baseline minimum we need for the DLC algorithm.

But it certainly can be applied to the 9x9x9 lumagens.

Is CalMAN capable to change the default grid type of equal spaced color points 9x9x9 3D LUT table of Lumagen's Radiance 20xx to store to a custom spaced table where the CalMAN will add custom colorpoints (other from the default ones) to control/improve better some areas of the display where the DLC finds problematic?
sotti's Avatar sotti 09:38 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Is CalMAN capable to change the default grid type of equal spaced color points 9x9x9 3D LUT table of Lumagen's Radiance 20xx to store to a custom spaced table where the CalMAN will add custom colorpoints (other from the default ones) to control/improve better some areas of the display where the DLC finds problematic?

The grid is flexible and defined by the number of luminance points selected. That sets the max upper threshold for DLC.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 10:24 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Is CalMAN capable to change the default grid type of equal spaced color points 9x9x9 3D LUT table of Lumagen's Radiance 20xx to store to a custom spaced table where the CalMAN will add custom colorpoints (other from the default ones) to control/improve better some areas of the display where the DLC finds problematic?

The grid is flexible and defined by the number of luminance points selected. That sets the max upper threshold for DLC.

The Lumagen's 20xx 3D LUT Table spacing is flexible and not fixed?

Can Calman user other 9x9x9 'smart spaced by DLC' color points different from the factory defaults?
sotti's Avatar sotti 10:34 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

The Lumagen's 20xx 3D LUT Table spacing is flexible and not fixed?

Can Calman user other 9x9x9 'smart spaced by DLC' color points different from the factory defaults?

No it's just CalMAN that's flexible, the radiance is fixed.
JimP 11:00 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It's Dynamic Linearity Correction, and it's part of the 5.3.5 update.

As part of our stepped profiling process we are able to detect where the display is no longer behaving linearly and dynamically add additional points until we can accurately predict the edges of the non-linearity. This is not only increasing the overall accuracy of a calibration, but it is also much more efficient as we can run fewer base calibration points.

No more hunting around for the "right" patch set for your display. With CalMAN, you'll get perfect patch distribution with a set the built for YOUR display.

Is this what we're seeing in the current beta?
sotti's Avatar sotti 11:02 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Is this what we're seeing in the current beta?

No it's not there yet.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 11:47 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Is this what we're seeing in the current beta?

No it's not there yet.

Do you have ETA for the first CalMAN 5.3.5.xxxx Beta Build?
sotti's Avatar sotti 11:52 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Do you have ETA for the first CalMAN 5.3.5.xxxx Beta Build?

I believe we are targeting by the end of the month.

It will be somewhat dependent on what hardware support goes into the beta.
derekjsmith's Avatar derekjsmith 11:53 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Do you have ETA for the first CalMAN 5.3.5.xxxx Beta Build?

We are shooting for later this week. Same goes for the two white papers on CalMAN display profiling and DLC study.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 11:54 AM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Do you have ETA for the first CalMAN 5.3.5.xxxx Beta Build?

We are shooting for later this week. Same goes for the two white papers on CalMAN display profiling and DLC study.

CalMAN 5 Enthusiast users will be able to use this feature?
sotti's Avatar sotti 12:20 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

CalMAN 5 Enthusiast users will be able to use this feature?

Absolutely.
fight4yu's Avatar fight4yu 12:24 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No it's just CalMAN that's flexible, the radiance is fixed.

Sorry, so what does this help? If the HW is fixed, how does Calman improve it?
sotti's Avatar sotti 12:34 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Sorry, so what does this help? If the HW is fixed, how does Calman improve it?

Well if you want to let it run a full 9^3 points for a lumagen, it doesn't change anything. When you go do a device where having CalMAN calibrate every single point is no longer reasonable, then it truly shines.

It can be a benefit on the 9^3 lumagen, since we can more efficiently calibrate the device. You'll be able to get virtually identical results running fewer points, maybe 500ish instead of 730, to save you some time.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 12:37 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Sorry, so what does this help? If the HW is fixed, how does Calman improve it?

Well if you want to let it run a full 9^3 points for a lumagen, it doesn't change anything. When you go do a device where having CalMAN calibrate every single point is no longer reasonable, then it truly shines.

It can be a benefit on the 9^3 lumagen, since we can more efficiently calibrate the device. You'll be able to get virtually identical results running fewer points, maybe 500ish instead of 730, to save you some time.

From that I can understand, CalMAN will take more measurements (means more time will be required) to have a better idea of that the display is capable of, and later it will decide what colorpoints to fix.

If I understand well, this means that with a Lumagen 20xx with 9x9x9 3D-LUT, If the display is linear, CalMAN will correct less colorpoints and use interpolation to the others, but to identify this it takes some more initial measurements so the total calibration time propably will be the same, but with less calibrated points and the end.

Does the user will be able to enable/disable this feature?
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 12:48 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Sorry, so what does this help? If the HW is fixed, how does Calman improve it?

Well if you want to let it run a full 9^3 points for a lumagen, it doesn't change anything. When you go do a device where having CalMAN calibrate every single point is no longer reasonable, then it truly shines.

It can be a benefit on the 9^3 lumagen, since we can more efficiently calibrate the device. You'll be able to get virtually identical results running fewer points, maybe 500ish instead of 730, to save you some time.

So the initial user selection of the target Hardware 3D LUT Device the user has, for the generation from CalMAN of the cLUT will be very important.

CalMAN has to know each selected as a target hardware fixed control points to avoid measuring / trying to correct patches where the hardware don't have the exact color point available in 3D-LUT table space, right?

Seems more like a eeColor users feature than a Lumagen (current 9-Point 3D-LUT Models)
fight4yu's Avatar fight4yu 01:10 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

So the initial user selection of the target Hardware 3D LUT Device the user has, for the generation from CalMAN of the cLUT will be very important.

CalMAN has to know each selected as a target hardware fixed control points to avoid measuring / trying to correct patches where the hardware don't have the exact color point available in 3D-LUT table space, right?

Seems more like a eeColor users feature than a Lumagen (current 9-Point 3D-LUT Models)

I know a whitepaper is in the work, but it will be great if it had a table for HW lut size/ fixed and benefit of DLC. So something like:

Size Points DLC usefulness
5x5 Fixed Not much. Minimum size.
9x9 Fixed Save some time. Accuracy stay the same
17x17 Varied Save time + accuracy.
65x65 Varied Best in time saving + accuracy??
sotti's Avatar sotti 01:12 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

From that I can understand, CalMAN will take more measurements (means more time will be required) to have a better idea of that the display is capable of, and later it will decide what colorpoints to fix.

If I understand well, this means that with a Lumagen 20xx with 9x9x9 3D-LUT, If the display is linear, CalMAN will correct less colorpoints and use interpolation to the others, but to identify this it takes some more initial measurements so the total calibration time propably will be the same, but with less calibrated points and the end.

Does the user will be able to enable/disable this feature?

It doesn't require any additional readings. It just doesn't kick in until it's gone through enough measurements that in theory our interpolation would be perfect. Then it's still an iterative process where we only add a minimum number of points, but continue to validate and add points until we've reached a threshold where our interpolation produces results that are below a definable threshold. We also can hard cap DLC so if you want to turn it to 0 in custom mode you can do that.
Quote:
So the initial user selection of the target Hardware 3D LUT Device the user has, for the generation from CalMAN of the cLUT will be very important.

CalMAN has to know each selected as a target hardware fixed control points to avoid measuring / trying to correct patches where the hardware don't have the exact color point available in 3D-LUT table space, right?

Seems more like a eeColor users feature than a Lumagen (current 9-Point 3D-LUT Models)

To calibrate a lumagen, you've always had to connect as a lumagen, it isn't supported in the virtual LUT. The Lumagen has always been treated separately since we released the VirtualLUT, since it doesn't actually use VirtualLUT, it's direct hardware control. We write to the hardware after each pass. That said we can still use DLC on it.

We actually can use points in-between hardware points to find better average error values. That's the reason we see 19 as the default luminance ramps, even though a majority of devices are only 17 point.

For the Lumagen, running the full hardware size will give the statistically significant best results. DLC may shave 20% off the time, without changing the perceptual outcome, but that's about the limit of it's capability.

For larger 3D LUTs, DLC can not only be faster, it will give much more consistent results. In the past on a color checker we'd typically see 1 or 2 outliers that report dE's in the 1-1.5 range while the rest are around 0.5. Not that the 1-1.5's are visible, but we aren't seeing those results. So the results are statistically improved, and may be subtly better visually as well.
sotti's Avatar sotti 01:14 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

I know a whitepaper is in the work, but it will be great if it had a table for HW lut size/ fixed and benefit of DLC. So something like:

Size Points DLC usefulness
5x5 Fixed Not much. Minimum size.
9x9 Fixed Save some time. Accuracy stay the same
17x17 Varied Save time + accuracy.
65x65 Varied Best in time saving + accuracy??

basically:
Code:
Size          Points    DLC usefulness
5x5           Fixed      N/A
9x9           Varied    Save some time. Accuracy stay the same
17x17+       Varied    Best in time saving + accuracy

fight4yu's Avatar fight4yu 01:55 PM 04-14-2014
Thanks Joel. Seems like high time to invest in an eecolor!
ACappo's Avatar ACappo 02:21 PM 04-14-2014
My laptop will just not output wtw and btb but when I expand to PC in calman and compare with the output from my blu ray player I get identical results so In theory I should be able to calibrate my eecolor however the result is not very good at all, could you please confirm what settings I should use in calman? I have currently set it to expand patterns to PC levels, and limit to reference white(since I can't display 0-15 and 236-25)
sotti's Avatar sotti 02:47 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACappo View Post

My laptop will just not output wtw and btb but when I expand to PC in calman and compare with the output from my blu ray player I get identical results so In theory I should be able to calibrate my eecolor however the result is not very good at all, could you please confirm what settings I should use in calman? I have currently set it to expand patterns to PC levels, and limit to reference white(since I can't display 0-15 and 236-25)

What graphics chipset do you have? Some of them will let you force full range RGB which should make the levels match (uncheck expand levels in calman).

I think with intel, you might not be able to force, in which case expanding video levels to PC is the right thing to do. Of course you'll have to limit it to reference white when creating the cube. I should be looking at issues that might cause sub optimal results this week. It also should be improved in the 5.3.1 beta from last friday.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 03:23 PM 04-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACappo View Post

My laptop will just not output wtw and btb but when I expand to PC in calman and compare with the output from my blu ray player I get identical results so In theory I should be able to calibrate my eecolor however the result is not very good at all, could you please confirm what settings I should use in calman? I have currently set it to expand patterns to PC levels, and limit to reference white(since I can't display 0-15 and 236-25)

That should be the correct setting for your case but limit to reference white needs work (see below). It still was not working well when I tested the latest open beta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

What graphics chipset do you have? Some of them will let you force full range RGB which should make the levels match (uncheck expand levels in calman).

I think with intel, you might not be able to force, in which case expanding video levels to PC is the right thing to do. Of course you'll have to limit it to reference white when creating the cube. I should be looking at issues that might cause sub optimal results this week. It also should be improved in the 5.3.1 beta from last friday.

You can force 0-255 via HDMI on Intel HD graphics chipsets with a registry tweak.
PE06MCG's Avatar PE06MCG 02:45 AM 04-15-2014
Hi Joel,


Regarding specifically Calman using an eeCB, my Sharp is 'out of the box' unable to achieve a CT of less than 9K+.
Previously I have only corrected my TV for brightness, contrast and backlight relying on your software to do all other adjustments via Autocalibration.

How important to your software would an accurate grayscale for RGB balance and gamma using TV controls be?

Perhaps the TV controls are better left at their best native state?.

In other words are there any positives and perhaps negatives to starting a 3D LUT calibration with the TV as close to grayscale correctness as possible using its own controls?
Iron Mike's Avatar Iron Mike 02:48 AM 04-15-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Joel,


Regarding specifically Calman using an eeCB, my Sharp is 'out of the box' unable to achieve a CT of less than 9K+.
Previously I have only corrected my TV for brightness, contrast and backlight relying on your software to do all other adjustments via Autocalibration.

How important to your software would an accurate grayscale for RGB balance and gamma using TV controls be?

Perhaps the TV controls are better left at their best native state?.

In other words are there any positives and perhaps negatives to starting a 3D LUT calibration with the TV as close to grayscale correctness as possible using its own controls?

the minimum pre-profile setup you should do for 3D LUT cal is set brt, contrast and white point (as accurate as possible).
PE06MCG's Avatar PE06MCG 07:15 AM 04-15-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

the minimum pre-profile setup you should do for 3D LUT cal is set brt, contrast and white point (as accurate as possible).

Thanks Mike,

That sets a minimum but is there a maximum? By that I mean can I overdo the use of my TV's controls leaving Calman restricted in its options to calibrate accurately at all or certain points within its effective range?
sotti's Avatar sotti 11:03 AM 04-15-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Thanks Mike,

That sets a minimum but is there a maximum? By that I mean can I overdo the use of my TV's controls leaving Calman restricted in its options to calibrate accurately at all or certain points within its effective range?

Typically you're best off leaving gamut at native.

Calibrating grayscale for white balance and gamma could be helpful.

It's really a hard question to answer as each displays internal processing is unique. A large correction internally may cause artifacting, or a large external change may do the same thing. Getting the display ballpark close for grayscale and native for gamut is usually sufficient.
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