A comparison of 3DLUT solutions for the eeColor box - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 656 Old 04-15-2014, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Typically you're best off leaving gamut at native.

Calibrating grayscale for white balance and gamma could be helpful.

It's really a hard question to answer as each displays internal processing is unique. A large correction internally may cause artifacting, or a large external change may do the same thing. Getting the display ballpark close for grayscale and native for gamut is usually sufficient.

Thanks Joel,

My problem is of course the native 9K+ CT.
the 6 point White Balance adjustments for RG and B within the SM need massive blue reduction but are relatively easy to perform. However I am left with large gamma fluctuations particularly at the 70% to 95% White points. Unfortunately getting 100% white RGB balance correct affects gamma at these lower points..
Hence my query about leaving it to be resolved externally by the eeCB / Calman combination.

Certainly via my Duo I can get excellent PQ using 75 or 80% sat patterns with Auto Calibration (ie all done externally) but I usually tweak the grayscale then gamut Autocals to get better chart results.

I note one of the papers Spectracal produce may be applicable to my TV

http://store.spectracal.com/customizing-white-points-and-color-targets

In particular I feel my TV fits the 9300 plus situation and whilst I can get it down to D65 perhaps D75 would work better for my case? Not accurate I know but since my red and blue do not fully saturate anyway is this a realistic solution for me until I can buy a better TV.
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post #602 of 656 Old 04-18-2014, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

What graphics chipset do you have? Some of them will let you force full range RGB which should make the levels match (uncheck expand levels in calman).

I think with intel, you might not be able to force, in which case expanding video levels to PC is the right thing to do. Of course you'll have to limit it to reference white when creating the cube. I should be looking at issues that might cause sub optimal results this week. It also should be improved in the 5.3.1 beta from last friday.

its a AMD Radeon HD7600 card but have tried everything in CCC but non of it will make it full range.

I also have a tower PC with a NVIDIA GeForce210 this will go full range with "NV_RGBFullRangeToggle.exe" however the black level is still not correct if I then set HDMI black level to low on my tv it seems to work, but when I last tested I did not get good result with calman dE above 10 on many instances so something else has gone wrong (im sure its not in calman since everyone else get goot results), could this be due to I have to change the HDMI black level on my TV?
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post #603 of 656 Old 04-18-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ACappo View Post

its a AMD Radeon HD7600 card but have tried everything in CCC but non of it will make it full range.

I also have a tower PC with a NVIDIA GeForce210 this will go full range with "NV_RGBFullRangeToggle.exe" however the black level is still not correct if I then set HDMI black level to low on my tv it seems to work, but when I last tested I did not get good result with calman dE above 10 on many instances so something else has gone wrong (im sure its not in calman since everyone else get goot results), could this be due to I have to change the HDMI black level on my TV?

Make sure CalMAN is set not to expand it's internal patterns to PC levels, if you are trying to ship RGB full range in, yet calibrate for video levels.

Some displays will override menu settings based on EDID hand shakes and signal formats, so it could just be that your TV sees full range RGB and simply will not let you treat it as video. There also could be a handful of other CCC settings that could be throwing off color, make sure if you've got the CalMAN PC Client installed that it's in bypass mode.

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post #604 of 656 Old 04-27-2014, 05:26 PM
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You've got the data points backwards on the davio/ee.

The Davio has 65, the ee only 64.

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post #605 of 656 Old 04-27-2014, 06:04 PM
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Also the Davio has a built in generator.

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post #606 of 656 Old 04-27-2014, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You've got the data points backwards on the davio/ee.

The Davio has 65, the ee only 64.

Technically the eeColor has 65, but only 64 are settable. This is important - 65 matches video encoded black well, and the eeColor can do this. If it was really 64 points evenly spaced, then it would be a poor fit for video encoded levels.

In fact one interesting aspect that seems to be missing from the comparison table is whether the 3DLut is applied to the video encoded signal (like the eeColor), or whether it is applied to the content range (like the Lumagen Radiance). The latter is preferable, and in fact essential if the cLUT resolution is not 65 or 256. [Note that having 3 x 1D 65 or 256 entry input lookup tables mitigates this problem too.] It's far better if the hardware passes the "sync" levels through and used the color correction logic for doing color correction, and not wasting entries on levels that are not visible.

(The table also omits ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI support for the eeColor.)
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post #607 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

(The table also omits ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI support for the eeColor.)

Thanks for the error in specs you found.

Yes, eeColor 3D LUT Box is definitely working with ArgyllCMS, I will correct it. Sorry.

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post #608 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Also the Davio has a built in generator.

Absolutely right, It's by mistake... I have uploaded an older version of that picture with 3D LUT Boxes specs, at my site It was correct about DAVIO, I will update with a corrected version here too in a few minutes. Thanks.

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post #609 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You've got the data points backwards on the davio/ee.

The Davio has 65, the ee only 64.

Joel, can you double check that about DAVIO? are you sure about 65-Point for DAVIO? Look below:

Cine-tal Announces DAVIO 2.0

WEBWIRE – Monday, February 13, 2012
INDIANAPOLIS, February 13, 2012 - Cine-tal Systems, a developer of collaboration, monitoring and image processing solutions, announces the release of DAVIO 2.0. The latest evolution of the product will debut this week in the THX and SpectraCal Exhibits at the Hollywood Post Alliance Tech Retreat. The award winning DAVIO Video Processor provides solutions for workflow color management, monitor or projector calibration, 3D stereoscopic processing and the generation of graticules and markers.

“DAVIO is the leading system for calibration of OLED, Plasma and LCD monitors” Said Robert Carroll V.P. sales and Marketing for Cine-tal. “Version 2.0 extends the color management / calibration functionality and provides a cross platform management tool to manage all DAVIO systems on the network from a remote location.”

Major features of DAVIO 2.0 include two independent 3G-HDSDI Channels. Each channel has a full color management system comprised of input and output 1D LUTs, input and output colorspace converters, input and output gamma control, and a 64 point 3D LUT. DAVIO 2.0 also includes a DVI-D / HDMI channel comprised of input and output 1D LUTs, input and output colorspace converters, input and output gamma control. The HDMI/DVI-D channel can also be routed through a 3D LUT.

Part of DAVIO 2.0 is the new DAVIO Control software. This cross platform application (Linux, OSX and Windows 7), provides management of all the DAVIOs on your network. All DAVIO operations can be controlled including changing the DAVIO software packages, loading LUTs, controlling colorspace parameters and entering ASC CDL data. DAVIO works with LUTs generated by the leading color management software applications including:

•cineSpace from THX
•CalMan Studio from SpectraCal
•LightSpace from Light Illusion
•TrueLight from
•FilmLight

Current DAVIO customers are eligible for a free upgrade to DAVIO 2.0. Firmware and Software can be downloaded from the Cine-tal web site.

Davio 2.0 Calibration

DAVIO Calibration is a versatile solution for your video monitor calibration needs. Inside DAVIO are two independent 3D LUTs (Look Up Tables) with a 64 point resolution. Each input also supports 1D LUTs for gamma correction or Log - Linear conversion. DAVIO provides the highest level of accuracy available for calibrating your video monitors, projectors and workstation monitors.

It says about 64-Point @ specification documents also...

DAVIO Color Management PDF

DAVIO Color Management is a versatile solution for your video
monitor calibration needs. Inside DAVIO are two independent
3D LUTs (Look Up tables) with 64 point accuracy.

DAVIO Calibration PDF

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post #610 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Absolutely right, It's by mistake... I have uploaded an older version of that picture with 3D LUT Boxes specs, at my site It was correct about DAVIO, I will update with a corrected version here too in a few minutes. Thanks.

A lot of this is over my head but how refreshing it is for an expert to acknowledge a mistake so promptly.

Well done Ted.
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post #611 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 03:19 AM
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Ok, I have checked all DAVIO related PDF's I have here at my library, most of them are not available online since Cine-tal's website is down, there is only one PDF that says about 8-65-Point Cube capability of DAVIO so I have just updated the 3D LUT Comparison Table with a corrected version. If you see any other error please let me know.

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Seiki_Digital_Convertion_Accessories.png

For 1080p Output 3D LUT Box / Video Processor users with UHD capable Displays/Projectors, there some new 1080p -> 2160p U-Converion accesories available for order @ Amazon with very promising specs...

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post #613 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

For 1080p Output 3D LUT Box / Video Processor users with UHD capable Displays/Projectors, there some new 1080p -> 2160p U-Converion accesories available for order @ Amazon with very promising specs...
It seems very unlikely a relatively inexpensive cable or box could have better scaling than the UHD TV itself, so what's the point?
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post #614 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

For 1080p Output 3D LUT Box / Video Processor users with UHD capable Displays/Projectors, there some new 1080p -> 2160p U-Converion accesories available for order @ Amazon with very promising specs...
It seems very unlikely a relatively inexpensive cable or box could have better scaling than the UHD TV itself, so what's the point?

Price mark cannot tell if it's upscales good or bad.

Technicolor is not certifing devices for fun.

A lot of UHD devices don't have good scallers.

I have Sony 4K, Samsung 4K, LG 4K displays calibrated here, and there noticed differencies from each device scalling capabilities when I'm seeding them from the same 1080p signal (I have a Media Player with 4x 1080p HDMI Outputs)

There some posted pictures here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1483335/technicolor-and-marseilles-demo-4k-image-certified-upscaling

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/marseilles-technicolor-4k-image-certified-vtv-video-processor-launches-into-first-consumer-electronics-products-2013-07-09

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/technicolor-4k-image-certification-and-marseille-4k-scaler

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

There some posted pictures here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1483335/technicolor-and-marseilles-demo-4k-image-certified-upscaling
An equally valid conclusion from that sort of test is that after encoding 4k images with H.264, you can't tell whether they are HD or 4K afterwards.

Call me cynical, but I think it's depressingly amusing to see the 4k proponents say on the one hand they are quadrupling the number of pixels that are currently barely encoded well on a Blue Ray, and then say that "but we'll fit it in the same bandwidth by using better compression". And the promotion of upscaling hardware just re-enforces my cynicism - "it's too technically hard to supply actual 4k quality images, but we need to sell 4k displays, so lets say that you can get the benefits with a cheap upscaler". That sort of thing worked so well for stereo displays (so called "3D"), didn't it ?
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post #616 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
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Make sure CalMAN is set not to expand it's internal patterns to PC levels, if you are trying to ship RGB full range in, yet calibrate for video levels.

Some displays will override menu settings based on EDID hand shakes and signal formats, so it could just be that your TV sees full range RGB and simply will not let you treat it as video. There also could be a handful of other CCC settings that could be throwing off color, make sure if you've got the CalMAN PC Client installed that it's in bypass mode.

I think you are right it could be an edid issue, is there any way of changing it so my tv thinks its a video signal?

my signal chain is. Philips bdp9500 -> Onkyo 876 ->eeColor -> TV (currently older Samsung LCD)
could it be a problem with the onkyo?

I will tonight try to connect directly to the TV and see if that matters
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post #617 of 656 Old 04-28-2014, 11:16 AM
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I think you are right it could be an edid issue, is there any way of changing it so my tv thinks its a video signal?

my signal chain is. Philips bdp9500 -> Onkyo 876 ->eeColor -> TV (currently older Samsung LCD)
could it be a problem with the onkyo?

I will tonight try to connect directly to the TV and see if that matters

I'm not an expert on EDID, you might find good help for that in the HTPC forum here. There are people in that forum that have good experience getting their TV's to play nice with computers.

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post #618 of 656 Old 04-29-2014, 08:46 AM
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I have asked in that forum, and just waiting on a reply, meanwhile, I have been playing a bit and I think I just might have cracked it. Can someone confirm or shoot down my theory that Samsung does/did on the older LCD displays uses the HDMI Black level setting to determine the input so low equal 0-255 and normal equal 16-235

if I connect my bluray player the setting is grayed out at normal, but when connecting a PC the options are low and normal, if i set at normal i get the washed out colors i.e remapping but when setting at low i get deep black (and if i turn up brightness i get blacker than black)

I have not yet had a meter on to see if it measures the same but visually it look the same, also I dont know if it does anything to the white level or if all colors map correctly, I will measure tonight hopefully, but just wondered if anyone have any experience on samsungs HDMI Black level setting?
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post #619 of 656 Old 04-29-2014, 10:09 AM
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On my Samsung ES8000 normal=0-255 and low=16-235
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post #620 of 656 Old 04-29-2014, 10:37 AM
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yes of course the option is grayed out not set to normal but, but grayed out since its not use, and I set it to low when using my pc.


looking forward to see how my laptop measures compared to my blu ray player
would the following be enough to verify:
21 step grayscale
10% increments saturation sweeps
10% increments luminance sweeps
Color checker SG

after this I will stop spamming the thread, and sorry for bringing it off topic.
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post #621 of 656 Old 04-30-2014, 09:45 AM
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If it's grayed out that means you are in YCbCr mode, which is 16-235. I think those tests are more than enough to check consistency, how different can it really be?
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post #622 of 656 Old 05-12-2014, 01:41 PM
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With respect to others that have posted in this thread.

With all the talk about what LUT/Profile calibration software is better.
After learning how to use my PC as a pattern generator because of the issues with the Lumagen, and now making my own custom meter profiles using LiVal (Jeti) and ChromaSurf (Klein). I used a custom 9223 patch set, my PC as a pattern generator, LightSpace, and my K10 with my custom made profile using the 1211. The display is my 65VT60.

Below are the results using Calman ColorChecker SG.



imo LS has to be a top LUT calibration software contender. I don't know how much better a LUT can get, using all lab grade meters.

ss
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post #623 of 656 Old 05-12-2014, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

With respect to others that have posted in this thread.

With all the talk about what LUT/Profile calibration software is better.
After learning how to use my PC as a pattern generator because of the issues with the Lumagen, and now making my own custom meter profiles using LiVal (Jeti) and ChromaSurf (Klein). I used a custom 9223 patch set, my PC as a pattern generator, LightSpace, and my K10 with my custom made profile using the 1211. The display is my 65VT60.

Below are the results using Calman ColorChecker SG.


imo LS has to be a top LUT calibration software contender. I don't know how much better a LUT can get, using all lab grade meters.

ss

SS,

did you by any chance run a larger val patch set ?

On DCT, you can now export custom patch sets for CM, so if you prefer the CM reports you can run the validation there...

Which custom 9K profiling set did u use ?

- M
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post #624 of 656 Old 05-12-2014, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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imo LS has to be a top LUT calibration software contender. I don't know how much better a LUT can get, using all lab grade meters.

ss

I'm glad you have found a stable calibration flow, the three software solutions discussed in this thread will all give you that result once you nail down a stable work flow. Then it's just a matter of how good your reference meter is.
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post #625 of 656 Old 05-12-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

imo LS has to be a top LUT calibration software contender. I don't know how much better a LUT can get, using all lab grade meters.

You can't credit just LS if you are relying on an ArgyllCMS generated custom patch set to get the result.
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post #626 of 656 Old 05-12-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
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I'm glad you have found a stable calibration flow, the three software solutions discussed in this thread will all give you that result once you nail down a stable work flow. Then it's just a matter of how good your reference meter is.

Thanks.

My reference meter is a Jeti 1211.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

You can't credit just LS if you are relying on an ArgyllCMS generated custom patch set to get the result.

Actually yes this was a zoyd made custom patch set that has been modified by Steve, at my request and my direction of what I wanted done.

My point is that a good custom patch set as this one clearly is, using good calibration software like LightSpace along with Reference meters and there software, the numbers speak for themselves.

I suggest that you try a K10-A and a reference spectro, use Klein's Chromasurf software and make your own custom meter profiles using the display you are calibrating. And of course under lab like environment.

ss
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post #627 of 656 Old 05-13-2014, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

SS,

did you by any chance run a larger val patch set ?

On DCT, you can now export custom patch sets for CM, so if you prefer the CM reports you can run the validation there...

Which custom 9K profiling set did u use ?

- M

Hay Mike.

No I didn't, try to keep patch IR to a minimum.

I like to use CM reports because I use LS to make my LUT's. Plus I am making sure that my Klein profile works on all software that I have, and now that I use my PC as a patch generator I want to make sure CM reports the numbers the same as LS.

As stated above, zoyd made custom patch set that has been modified by Steve, at my request and my direction.

Next patch set, I will make using your great tools. Also will make a new meter profile with ChromaSurf and LiVal to be inputted into the K10 memory.

ss
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post #628 of 656 Old 05-13-2014, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Hay Mike.

No I didn't, try to keep patch IR to a minimum.

I like to use CM reports because I use LS to make my LUT's. Plus I am making sure that my Klein profile works on all software that I have, and now that I use my PC as a patch generator I want to make sure CM reports the numbers the same as LS.

As stated above, zoyd made custom patch set that has been modified by Steve, at my request and my direction.

Next patch set, I will make using your great tools. Also will make a new meter profile with ChromaSurf and LiVal to be inputted into the K10 memory.

ss

SS,

I think u misunderstand:

u can use Zoyds or whatever patch set for profiling - BUT validating 30 points means (almost) nothing. smile.gif

Now, I understand peeps didn't wanna punch in 1000+ points manually in CM to create a large custom validation patch set, but now u can do that in 5 secs in DCT (and create whatever you like) and export a patch set for Calman which you then use in Calman.

So, to explain the process: instead of running the internal Color Checker patch set you would run your custom patch set in CM and then look at that validation report - it will be exactly the same as you Color Checker report just with way more points, so we get way more meaningful data about the performance your LUT. And of course u can use ur K10 with ur internal offset slot.

It's great running all kinds of profiles and creating all kinds of LUTs, but what ultimately counts - the only thing that means anything - is how the LUT performs. And you wanna know that in as much detail as possible.

It really fascinates me through how much trouble peeps go to setup their screen and patch sets and meters trying to squeeze out every bit of accuracy and performance and then they validate 50 points.... it does not make any sense... it's like either they're afraid to know the truth or they blindly believe it's all good... rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

You cannot improve your calibration if you don't know where the problems are.

For example, Zoyd used his own 1K+ custom patch set to run his val on the LUTs in the beginning of this thread... u can use that in LS and then print the report via DCT in the LSPR... if not, create a simple 1K+ patch set and export for CM and use their pretty reports... or use 500 points... it takes a few minutes with the K10, don't worry about IR, you just run 9K+ points !!! biggrin.gif

I know a few peeps that have validated their LUTs with larger sets, identified problematic regions and dedicated more points in the next (custom) profiling patch set to these areas and it did improve the next LUT's performance...

- M

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
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post #629 of 656 Old 05-13-2014, 03:26 AM
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@Iron Mike.

I understand what you are asking, and have done so on more than one occasion. So yes I do have a idea were my weak areas are. The 100+ ColorChecker I run plus the sweeps and the grayscale gamma temp, also gives me a good idea.

My point is how many times do you have to run a 1000 point test to know were the weak spots are. On the same display I have owned for almost a year.
Yes I guess that would be helpful to a customer having his display calibrated by a pro. But for the most part the pro reports I see show maybe 15 points, not well over 100 points. wink.gif

ss
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post #630 of 656 Old 05-13-2014, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

It's great running all kinds of profiles and creating all kinds of LUTs, but what ultimately counts - the only thing that means anything - is how the LUT performs. And you wanna know that in as much detail as possible.

It really fascinates me through how much trouble peeps go to setup their screen and patch sets and meters trying to squeeze out every bit of accuracy and performance and then they validate 50 points.... it does not make any sense... it's like either they're afraid to know the truth or they blindly believe it's all good... rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

Hmm, I basicly agree with You. But saying "the only thing that means anything - is how the LUT performs" is only one side of the coin if Your pattern source is not Your video source.
Your pretty nice results, even validated with a large patch set, are meaningless if Your pattern generator doesn't match Your video source. You have no accuracy in real life.

I guess there is a good reason why SillySally switched to a graphics card as a pattern generator. wink.gif
A small validation with Your video source showing greyscale, gamma, saturation sweeps and colorchecker at first is more important to me than a large validation with pattern generator only.
Like You said, are You afraid of the truth...not showing this kind of validation. (this was not towards You, SillySally. Just a common statement)
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