A comparison of 3DLUT solutions for the eeColor box - Page 22 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 61Likes
Reply
Thread Tools
post #631 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 02:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

@Iron Mike.

I understand what you are asking, and have done so on more than one occasion. So yes I do have a idea were my weak areas are. The 100+ ColorChecker I run plus the sweeps and the grayscale gamma temp, also gives me a good idea.

My point is how many times do you have to run a 1000 point test to know were the weak spots are. On the same display I have owned for almost a year.
Yes I guess that would be helpful to a customer having his display calibrated by a pro. But for the most part the pro reports I see show maybe 15 points, not well over 100 points. wink.gif

ss

it's less about the the weak points / areas / regions, they are just a bonus...

it's about getting as much data as possible about how the LUT performs... e.g. u validate 100 points and get avg dE 0.7 with 5 points over dE 3... now u validate 1000 pts... now u're at avg dE 1.2 with 90 points over dE 3 and some with some too high dE to accept - a different situation... image u'd validate all 16.7+ Mio points...

so how are u gonna rate the performance of a LUT ?

IMO: run as many points as u can for ur validation dE report and then in addition visually evaluate for banding, posterization etc...

6pt cal reports are a different story:

the calibrator doing a traditional 3pt/6pt cal only has very limited CMS controls. So if he has 10pt GS controls it makes sense to present the customer a 10pt GS report. Does this report show how the GS of the display performs ? Barely. It shows how good the work of the calibrator is with what he had to work with. Only a 256pt GS run will truly tell u how how ur display's GS performs.

So they print these reports with a few points that show what they've done for the controls they had access to, and that's fair. Run a 1K+ patch set on a 6pt cal set and it'll burst some bubbles, though obviously not the calibrators "fault".


3D LUT cals need more:

u're giving LS 9K+ points of information to create a LUT. LS creates a LUT with 65^3 control points. To truly see how LS performed u'd need to validate 274,625 points as that is what LS has control over. Too much, so why are we not fair and run at least a 9K validation set because that is the amount of information u gave to LS....

Still too much, so I'm saying run 1/9th of that (--> 1000 points) as a tiny starting point... it's like asking a calibrator to check 1 GS patch out of the 10 he had control over ! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

My advise: better run 8.5K profile set and then 1K validation patch set (if u think u're set is in danger of IR) so u end up with 9.5K as well than 9.5K plus just 100 points...

edit / add-on: my point is that u need to properly validate every LUT...

- M
mo949 likes this.

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: CR-250, Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 02:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Hmm, I basicly agree with You. But saying "the only thing that means anything - is how the LUT performs" is only one side of the coin if Your pattern source is not Your video source.
Your pretty nice results, even validated with a large patch set, are meaningless if Your pattern generator doesn't match Your video source. You have no accuracy in real life.

I guess there is a good reason why SillySally switched to a graphics card as a pattern generator. wink.gif
A small validation with Your video source showing greyscale, gamma, saturation sweeps and colorchecker is more important to me than a large validation with pattern generator only.
Like You said, are You afraid of the truth...not showing this kind of validation. (this was not towards You, SillySally. Just a common statement)

I think u're misunderstanding a few things... SS switched to the HDMI out of his graphics card b/c the Lumagen is incorrect atm... choosing your pattern source has nothing to do with the validation workflow I described...

how u gonna calibrate ur DVR ? ur OTA ? ur Netflix stream ?

impossible as u can't make these sources generate patterns that includes the signal distortion they add...

so ur best bet is to choose a neutral pattern source: a pattern generator, hopefully Accupel or maybe ur graphics card... all the same thing... u're now on neutral, middle ground...

if u want to calibrate ONE chain out of the 5/6 possible chains in HT then choose Ted's disc or ur media player to display the patterns... but now u're compensating for the specific distortion from that device and that will make the calibration less usable for all other chains...

but again, this has nothing to do with a proper validation workflow, which would clearly use the same pattern generator as used for profiling... if u then in addition want to validate an isolated, single chain and see how that performs u can still do that... smile.gif

and even if u just calibrate for one chain, u should still validate with 1K+ patches....

- M

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: CR-250, Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #633 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 03:52 AM
Senior Member
 
DrFaxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

I think u're misunderstanding a few things... SS switched to the HDMI out of his graphics card b/c the Lumagen is incorrect atm... choosing your pattern source has nothing to do with the validation workflow I described...

No, not at all. I know from personal experience that the Lumagen is far way off. That's why I used the wink.gif
I said if Your pattern source is incorrect, respecively doesn't match Your video source, Your LUT validation is meaningless in regard to the video source, not in general. 2 different animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

how u gonna calibrate ur DVR ? ur OTA ? ur Netflix stream ?

impossible as u can't make these sources generate patterns that includes the signal distortion they add...

agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

so ur best bet is to choose a neutral pattern source: a pattern generator, hopefully Accupel or maybe ur graphics card... all the same thing... u're now on neutral, middle ground...

agree, if the pattern source matches all video sources You have very close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

if u want to calibrate ONE chain out of the 5/6 possible chains in HT then choose Ted's disc or ur media player to display the patterns... but now u're compensating for the specific distortion from that device and that will make the calibration less usable for all other chains...

depending on the pattern source it can add distortions too, see Lumagen. No difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

but again, this has nothing to do with a proper validation workflow, which would clearly use the same pattern generator as used for profiling... if u then in addition want to validate an isolated, single chain and see how that performs u can still do that... smile.gif

yes basicly right but this only shows how the LUT performs. If Your pattern source is far way off Your video source, You can save Your time to validate the LUT, because it lacks of accuracy in real life anyway. Again, this is nothing against a proper validation in general, just for this specific situation.
DrFaxe is offline  
post #634 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 08:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

...snip...

Now, I understand peeps didn't wanna punch in 1000+ points manually in CM to create a large custom validation patch set, but now u can do that in 5 secs in DCT (and create whatever you like) and export a patch set for Calman which you then use in Calman.

So, to explain the process: instead of running the internal Color Checker patch set you would run your custom patch set in CM and then look at that validation report - it will be exactly the same as you Color Checker report just with way more points, so we get way more meaningful data about the performance your LUT. And of course u can use ur K10 with ur internal offset slot.

...snip...

- M

Let me be sure I got this right. You can create a validation patch set using DCT which only takes a few minutes and run it in Calman? None of this manual creation of each patch....right?

Last night, I ran the latest release of Calman (released yesterday) and I have to say that this is the best picture I've ever had on any of my displays.

I know there are those who are very critical of Calman, but you really should give this latest release a try. Very intuitive and it works.
derekjsmith and ConnecTEDDD like this.

Tool kit: Calman 5, Chromapure, VideoForge HDMI II, Klein K10A, CR250RH, eecolor colorbox.
Displays: Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50
Audio: Marantz AV8801, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP
JimP is online now  
post #635 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 09:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

...snip...

Now, I understand peeps didn't wanna punch in 1000+ points manually in CM to create a large custom validation patch set, but now u can do that in 5 secs in DCT (and create whatever you like) and export a patch set for Calman which you then use in Calman.

So, to explain the process: instead of running the internal Color Checker patch set you would run your custom patch set in CM and then look at that validation report - it will be exactly the same as you Color Checker report just with way more points, so we get way more meaningful data about the performance your LUT. And of course u can use ur K10 with ur internal offset slot.

...snip...

- M

Let me be sure I got this right. You can create a validation patch set using DCT which only takes a few minutes and run it in Calman? None of this manual creation of each patch....right?

Last night, I ran the latest release of Calman (released yesterday) and I have to say that this is the best picture I've ever had on any of my displays.

I know there are those who are very critical of Calman, but you really should give this latest release a try. Very intuitive and it works.

Nice News, have you visually checked my Disk's Color Reproduction Patterns to find any banding problem when are swapping your Active Correction Table vs. No correction table with your eeColor?

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #636 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 09:43 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Nice News, have you visually checked my Disk's Color Reproduction Patterns to find any banding problem when are swapping your Active Correction Table vs. No correction table with your eeColor?

The one time I tried it, I think I must have been trying to go between the different menus too fast. My Oppo 95 locked up. Had to power down / up to get it going. Like I said, it was probably my fault.

I'll give it another try today.

Where can I find the specific patterns?

Tool kit: Calman 5, Chromapure, VideoForge HDMI II, Klein K10A, CR250RH, eecolor colorbox.
Displays: Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50
Audio: Marantz AV8801, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP
JimP is online now  
post #637 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 09:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Nice News, have you visually checked my Disk's Color Reproduction Patterns to find any banding problem when are swapping your Active Correction Table vs. No correction table with your eeColor?

The one time I tried it, I think I must have been trying to go between the different menus too fast. My Oppo 95 locked up. Had to power down / up to get it going. Like I said, it was probably my fault.

I'll give it another try today.

Where can I find the specific patterns?

Hello Jim, check these ramps to be sure that all are good, visually:


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #638 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,569
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 783 Post(s)
Liked: 692
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post


My point is how many times do you have to run a 1000 point test to know were the weak spots are. On the same display I have owned for almost a year.

yes, I think you probably have a good handle on your display characteristics by now. wink.gif Plus, the CM colorchecker-SG set is an excellent proxy for bulk color reproduction once you have established that your display is behaving in a typical manner post-LUT.





zoyd is online now  
post #639 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 10:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked: 295
Ted,

Just finished checking the ramps and they are artifact free.....they are very clean.

Thanks for the tools to be able to check on this.
derekjsmith and ConnecTEDDD like this.

Tool kit: Calman 5, Chromapure, VideoForge HDMI II, Klein K10A, CR250RH, eecolor colorbox.
Displays: Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50
Audio: Marantz AV8801, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP
JimP is online now  
post #640 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 10:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ted,

Just finished checking the ramps and they are artifact free.....they are very clean.

Thanks for the tools to be able to check on this.

That's very good news. smile.gif

The tools are created for that reason, to verify things the dE Reports can't show wink.gif

I have send a Disk Copy of my Version 1.1 Disk to SpectraCAL also wink.gif
derekjsmith likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #641 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 12:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Let me be sure I got this right. You can create a validation patch set using DCT which only takes a few minutes and run it in Calman? None of this manual creation of each patch....right?

Last night, I ran the latest release of Calman (released yesterday) and I have to say that this is the best picture I've ever had on any of my displays.

I know there are those who are very critical of Calman, but you really should give this latest release a try. Very intuitive and it works.

yes Jim,

you can create any patch set (generated grid / manual grid / fully custom) and export for CM which will save it as a .ccfx file which you can then use in CM... instructions are on the page...

I've tested it and it works just fine...

One note:

CM currently allows only ONE custom color set (patch set), so when you copy the .ccfx file into the CM directory you will overwrite the existing .ccfx file, which I think by default is the 96pt Color Checker... simply move that file, rename or make a backup before you overwrite it...

If not, you can create the custom 96pt Color Checker via DCT again with the click of a button... smile.gif

- M
ConnecTEDDD likes this.

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: CR-250, Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #642 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 12:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,692
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

yes Jim,

you can create any patch set (generated grid / manual grid / fully custom) and export for CM which will save it as a .ccfx file which you can then use in CM... instructions are on the page...

I've tested it and it works just fine...

One note:

CM currently allows only ONE custom color set (patch set), so when you copy the .ccfx file into the CM directory you will overwrite the existing .ccfx file, which I think by default is the 96pt Color Checker... simply move that file, rename or make a backup before you overwrite it...

If not, you can create the custom 96pt Color Checker via DCT again with the click of a button... smile.gif

- M

Technically we support N number of custom color sets, but we only support 1 file. The XML file itself can have a long list of custom files.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #643 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Plus, the CM colorchecker-SG set is an excellent proxy for bulk color reproduction once you have established that your display is behaving in a typical manner post-LUT.


Zoyd, do you have ETA of the next HCFR version that you will add support for my Disk's ColorChecker SG Chapter which will give to HCFR users the capability to measure using my CalMAN ColorChecker SG from HCFR Software?

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #644 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 12:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Technically we support N number of custom color sets, but we only support 1 file. The XML file itself can have a long list of custom files.

hmmm... IIRC I tried multiple color sets in one file and it did not work... didn't you mention in the other thread that only ONE set is (currently) supported ?

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: CR-250, Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #645 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 12:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,692
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

hmmm... IIRC I tried multiple color sets in one file and it did not work... didn't you mention in the other thread that only ONE set is (currently) supported ?

Nope it's always supported more, I think the issue may just have been at first when we had the issue with the encoding format your copy got saved with.

I might just add a tight little loop to scoop up additional _1, _2 custom colorsets just to make life easy for people.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #646 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 12:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Nope it's always supported more, I think the issue may just have been at first when we had the issue with the encoding format your copy got saved with.

I might just add a tight little loop to scoop up additional _1, _2 custom colorsets just to make life easy for people.

okay, please keep us updated once CM supports multiple color set files and the required file name structure !

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: CR-250, Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #647 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,569
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 783 Post(s)
Liked: 692
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Zoyd, do you have ETA of the next HCFR version that you will add support for my Disk's ColorChecker SG Chapter which will give to HCFR users the capability to measure using my CalMAN ColorChecker SG from HCFR Software?

No ETA but it's pretty far along.
Brian Hampton likes this.
zoyd is online now  
post #648 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 10:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,692
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

okay, please keep us updated once CM supports multiple color set files and the required file name structure !

If you want to do it right now you can do it in one file by adding multiple entries:
Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<XML_CustomColorDefinitionSet_Root xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
        <ColorSets>
                <ColorSet Name="test" ReadOnly="true" RoundRGB="false" DynamicGamma="false">
                        <Colors>
                                <ColorDefinition Name="black" DataType="RGB" Data1="0" Data2="0" Data3="0" />
                        </Colors>
                </ColorSet>
                <ColorSet Name="test2" ReadOnly="true" RoundRGB="false" DynamicGamma="false">
                        <Colors>
                                <ColorDefinition Name="white" DataType="RGB" Data1="100" Data2="100" Data3="100" />
                        </Colors>
                </ColorSet>
        </ColorSets>
</XML_CustomColorDefinitionSet_Root>

This works and has been working since the beginning of custom color sets.

In the next release we'll support them from multiple files for ease of management from external generators. The naming structure will be CustomColorSets_X.ccfx. You'll still need the original CustomColorSets.ccfx file, and then each additional file will need to be in numeric order starting with 1.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #649 of 745 Old 05-13-2014, 10:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

If you want to do it right now you can do it in one file by adding multiple entries:
Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<XML_CustomColorDefinitionSet_Root xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
        <ColorSets>
                <ColorSet Name="test" ReadOnly="true" RoundRGB="false" DynamicGamma="false">
                        <Colors>
                                <ColorDefinition Name="black" DataType="RGB" Data1="0" Data2="0" Data3="0" />
                        </Colors>
                </ColorSet>
                <ColorSet Name="test2" ReadOnly="true" RoundRGB="false" DynamicGamma="false">
                        <Colors>
                                <ColorDefinition Name="white" DataType="RGB" Data1="100" Data2="100" Data3="100" />
                        </Colors>
                </ColorSet>
        </ColorSets>
</XML_CustomColorDefinitionSet_Root>

This works and has been working since the beginning of custom color sets.

In the next release we'll support them from multiple files for ease of management from external generators. The naming structure will be CustomColorSets_X.ccfx. You'll still need the original CustomColorSets.ccfx file, and then each additional file will need to be in numeric order starting with 1.

the multi-file support sounds good !

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: CR-250, Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #650 of 745 Old 05-18-2014, 05:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 592
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 263
After a bit of a delay, due to some urgent work for a major display manufacturer, we have at last got around to looking in detail at the evaluations Zoyd performed.
As per the message I sent him directly, and as I also posted in this thread, we have indeed found a 'rounding error' we managed to introduce into LightSpace some time back, and had missed.
If Zoyd (or Spectracal for that matter) had been polite enough to provide the test data Zoyd use we would have found this instantly...
But no matter, because as Zoyd stated. the error was basically invisible.

However, also as I posted, we strive for perfection, so were keen to understand what the error was.

Here is the data in an easy to understand graphical form.

First the error in the existing release version of LightSpace, as tested by Zoyd.

This first image shows the 'noise' as a 3D cube representation of the data.
It is easy to see the 'noise' at the edge of the cube,



And this as a 1D graph, where the noise shows as colour distortions of the graph plot.



And the following images are exactly the same profile data with the new version of LightSpace we will be releasing shortly (it's undergoing Beta testing at the moment).
The difference is rather obvious.





There may be other rounding errors we have missed, so we are running more tests before we release this new version.
But, as above, the initial results seem to suggest the main (but invisible) issue has been solved.

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #651 of 745 Old 05-18-2014, 06:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,027
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 374
I can attest to what Steve is saying, I am viewing the outcome of this right now. smile.gif

ss
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
sillysally is offline  
post #652 of 745 Old 05-18-2014, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,569
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 783 Post(s)
Liked: 692
I can confirm that the update has removed the peak component of residual systematic error that I had observed.

Model simulation data

Before

After


Measured data

Before

After
sillysally and ConnecTEDDD like this.
zoyd is online now  
post #653 of 745 Old 05-18-2014, 04:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,027
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Thank You zoyd for confirming what I was seeing, and bringing this issue to Steve's attention..
This fix is something that I can't confirm on paper, because it will not show up in any normal dE test

I would advise any LS users to redo there favorite Profile and make a new LUT when the update is realest.. wink.gif

ss
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
sillysally is offline  
post #654 of 745 Old 05-18-2014, 04:26 PM
Senior Member
 
1forsnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 46
I have a question. In Steve's first 3D cube image you can see the noise at the edge of the cube. However isn't this cube graph a 0-255 representation? If that is truly the case, I have a hard time believing you would see this noise in regular viewing content. In test patterns, sure you may see the error, but there is hardly anything(if at all) up in that range anyways. Just curious....
1forsnow is offline  
post #655 of 745 Old 05-18-2014, 10:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 592
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 263
The cube and 1D graph data is actually normalised floating point, so will scale to the level of the image path you use - 0-255, 16-235, 0-1023, 64-940...

So yes, the error was basically totally invisible, as Zoyd did initially report.
However, no error is good, so we were keen to locate what we had done to introduce this issue, as we knew it was not there initially.
As stated, we found a rounding error we inadvertently introduced a few versions back and had missed.

Steve
ConnecTEDDD likes this.

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #656 of 745 Old 05-28-2014, 03:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 672
LightSpace CMS 6.6.0.1901

A new version of LightSpace has just released.

This version includes:

-- Enhanced Cube and Hybrid profiling accuracy.

-- Fixed Unity Blend crash.

-- Improve colour engine for poor probe black level handling.

-- New LUT formats added.

-- Advanced Lumagen 17^3 support added.

-- Updated i1Pro2 SDK.

DOWNLOAD LightSpace CMS Demo or Upgrade for Licensed Users

DOWNLOAD LightSpace DPS (Display Profiling System) Free Version License Request

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #657 of 745 Unread 02-09-2015, 09:21 AM
Member
 
MSL_DK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Zoyd> is there an way to use ofps_2000_10000.zip files with ArgyllCMS? Can they be converted for use in ArgyllCMS?

Samsung UE46H7005/7000 - Dynaudio Focus 200 XD
MSL_DK is online now  
post #658 of 745 Unread 02-09-2015, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,569
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 783 Post(s)
Liked: 692
You should just make your own with the number of patches you'd like. This can be done with the command line program "targen.exe" from the ArgyllCMS distribution or you can do it using the dispcalGUI chart editor. Instructions are in both the dispcalGUI/MadVR and ArgyllCMS/eeColor threads.
zoyd is online now  
post #659 of 745 Unread 04-25-2015, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,569
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 783 Post(s)
Liked: 692
I've compared the most recent versions of dispcalGUI (DCG)/ArgyllCMS, LightSpace, and CalMAN using the eeColor on a plasma display. The methodology was much the same as the OP comparison.

Versions tested
DCG/ArgyllCMS: 2.9.1.0 Beta/1.7.0_beta6
LightSpace: 6.6.7.2062
CalMAN: 5.5.0.1922

Some notable changes:

1. CalMan now uses single pass profiling to calculate LUT corrections, it retains the legacy multi-pass optimization method but that was not retested here.
2. I used DCG automatic profiling/LUT creation mode rather than a command line batch file to run the ArgyllCMS tools.

All three programs were driven with ~2600 profiling patches and took approximately the same amount of time to complete the process, which was between 1 and 1.5 hours using an i1display pro. All results except "LS-algo" represent standalone tests where profiling and verification measurements are performed within the same program.

Summary of verification statistics


Where,
LS-grid: This is a preset grid density of 14x14x14 (2774 points)
LS-opt: This is using the same optimized test set that was generated during the DCG auto-profiling mode (2527 points)
LS-algo: This is the display response using the LS algorithm with the DCG/Argyll measured profile.
Efficiency: Patch weighted ratio of native/post-LUT dE00 x 1000

The verification set consisted of 50 grayscale patches, 20 patch RGB luminance ramps, and 632 randomized patches. All values are dE00.

Case 1: Relatively good pre-lut response, average/worst 10% dE00: 1.65/4.0


All three programs performed well in Case 1 driving better than 90% of the verification patches below dE00 of 1. If I use the LS algorithm on the DCG measurement set the gap between LS and DCG narrows (Efficiency increase from 1.2 to 1.48 vs. 1.79). The only difference between the two data sets is a panel drift correction.

Case 2: Similar to pre-lut response of OP, average/worst 10% dE00: 3.92/7.75


The spread between the 3 programs increases as the pre-LUT response degrades, most significantly in the case of CalMAN. This can be further examined by looking at the LUT noise characteristics.

These are surface plots of the output-input code deltas for the red channel input video level 60 as a function of B and G input values.

Case 1


Case 2


Summary of LUT noise characteristics


Where RSS is the root-sum-square of the individual channel 1-sigma standard deviations.

In Case 1 the relative noise factor between CM and DCG is 3.1 and does not significantly impact the error distribution, but in Case 2 it jumps to 6.2 and degrades performance. [LS maintains a factor of 2 more LSB noise relative to DCG in both cases]

A further illustration is shown here which breaks out the 1-sigma noise level of the red channel as a function of blue input level.


It's not clear to me whether this is a result of issues with interpolation or with the LUT optimization itself.

Another interesting thing that can be seen in the surface plots is that the LS grid-based profiles are smoother than the ones using Argyll-optimized patches, and that the overall efficiencies between the two are not that different. This was not the case in the OP where for example the efficiency factor for that grid set was only 1.09 and it's now 1.63.

The primary differences I found when compared to the previous tests were:
  • The new CalMan profiling workflow appears to suffer from elevated noise that degrades the LUT performance.
  • The LightSpace grid based profiles have become significantly more efficient at reducing perceptual errors.
  • DCG provides an automatic and more user-friendly method of using ArgyllCMS for LUT creation.
  • The ArgyllCMS drift correction has a measurable benefit to LUT performance on a Plasma display.
turbe, JimP, ConnecTEDDD and 2 others like this.

Last edited by zoyd; 04-26-2015 at 08:54 AM.
zoyd is online now  
post #660 of 745 Unread 04-25-2015, 12:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I've compared the most recent versions of DCG/ArgyllCMS, LightSpace, and CalMAN using the eeColor on a plasma display. The methodology was much the same as the OP comparison.
Hi Zoyd, can you post the version/build numbers of DCG/ArgyllCMS, LightSpace, and CalMAN you used for this test.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 04-25-2015 at 01:01 PM.
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off