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post #1 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been a member of AVS forum for a while now, but I have to admit that the level of expertise on this Display Calibration board makes me more hesitant to post a newbie question that on most other boards on AVS Forum.

I've used a basic calibration disc before (I think it was THX) but have never had a full-blown calibration done. I've taken 10-point settings from CNET and the Forum to improve the picture of my LG 55LW5600.

In advance of purchasing a new higher-end LED/LCD late this year, I'm considering dipping my toe into taking my DIY home calibration to the next level using HCFR.

I've read through much of the information on Kal's site: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

And at least the entire section up to Part 8 (Advanced Color Management) seems like something I could manage.

So I think I want to take the plunge and get a colorimeter and I've read various posts here on the Display Calibration board (which can quickly be overwhelming for a newbie/amateur).

In particular, the comments regarding drift of colorimeters and the need to have them 'sent in for recalibration' have me concerned.

I want to purchase a colorimeter to use with HCFR 9 months from now when I have my new LED/LCD. I would like to learn and to practice by calibrating my LG 55LW5600. So my first question is: Is the drift that may occur over a 9 month period significant enough that I should hold off on buying a colorimeter until I have my new panel?

I might be interested to purchase a very low-end colorimeter to learn on fully expecting that as I bump into it's limitations, I'll step up to better equipment before my new panel arrives.

ULTRA-LOW-END: Can any of these be successfully used for a basic calibration with HCFR???

-Pantone Eye-One Display 2 ($50 used)

-Spyder3 TV ($79)

-Datacolor Spyder4Express S4X100 Display Calibration Device ($82)

-Colormunki Smile ($89)


LOW-END: Will these continue to be usable for basic calibration with HCFR over the course of 12-24 months or will they need to be recalibrated???

-Datacolor S4TV100 Spyder4TV HD for Calibrating Color on TV Display ($124)

-Calman C3 ($149)

-ColorMunki Display ($169)


PRO-SUMER: I will purchase a colorimeter of this class to calibrate my new TV at year-end. Kal says these drift over the course of a year and so should be calibrated yearly. How much does a colorimeter calibration cost?

-ColorMunki Display ($169) [For use only with HCFR, is this as good as the I!D3 below???]

X-Rite EODIS3 i1Display Pro ($249)


I am basically debating between:

A) - Buy a 'disposable' ultra-low-end colorimeter now, use it to learn HCFR by practicing on my LG 55LW5600, then purchase a new ColorMunki Display or X-Rite Display 3 just after purchasing my new panel

B) - Buy an X-Rite Display 3 now, use it for 9 months learning to calibrate my LG 55LW5600, then have it recalibrated after purchasing my new panel.

C) - Buy an X-Rite Display 3 now and don't worry about the small inaccuracies introduced by drift over 9 months

D) - Hold off and do not buy anything until I have my new TV, then buy a 'fresh' X-Rite Display then...


Any advice for which of these plans will be better would be appreciated - it seems like anything I do will be better than using my eyes, and I am looking for the most cost-effective way to dip my toe in to the next level without yet being sure how much time and money I want to put into calibration going forward...

-fafrd
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 01:46 PM
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If you are worried about drift and accuracy, then your best bet is a spectrometer such as the xrite eyeonepro (used on ebay for $250-400) or a brand new Colormunki Photo (price varies from $400-450). Now if you want to just dip your toe in, then the Colormunki display is as good as the i1Display Pro as far as accuracy, but can be a bit slower at some readings.

If I were to buy just one right now to just learn the ropes, I'd probably get either a Colormunki Display or a i1Display Pro, then if you enjoy the process and want to be sure of accuracy, you can always buy a spectrometer and use that to profile the colorimeter. I currently own an Xrite i1DisplayLT which was based on the i1Display2 as well as my Colormunki Photo. I currently just use the CM Photo for the entire calibration process and have had good success.


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post #3 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 02:13 PM
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I got a Colormunki display and got an awesome result using it and HCFR to calibrate my Samsung ES8000. As long as your paycheck doesn't depend on having a calibrated display, I think that this solution represents tremendous value for money.

If you don't want to learn HCFR though you will have to get a more expensive meter as the Colormunki Display only works with the useless xrite software, HCFR, and argyllcms.

As far as drift goes, I don't know if there is any information out there regarding drift rates of various meters. In any case if you are very concerned about it, you can either invest in a spectro as fairchild99 noted, or profile your meter against a spectrometer periodically (assuming you can find someone to lend you one)


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post #4 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

If you are worried about drift and accuracy, then your best bet is a spectrometer such as the xrite eyeonepro (used on ebay for $250-400) or a brand new Colormunki Photo (price varies from $400-450). Now if you want to just dip your toe in, then the Colormunki display is as good as the i1Display Pro as far as accuracy, but can be a bit slower at some readings.

If I were to buy just one right now to just learn the ropes, I'd probably get either a Colormunki Display or a i1Display Pro, then if you enjoy the process and want to be sure of accuracy, you can always buy a spectrometer and use that to profile the colorimeter. I currently own an Xrite i1DisplayLT which was based on the i1Display2 as well as my Colormunki Photo. I currently just use the CM Photo for the entire calibration process and have had good success.

Thanks. The only reason I have any concern regarding drift is what I read on Kal's site: "Colorimeters can (and should) be periodically recalibrated to ensure they retain their initial accuracy. This eliminates the problems associated with exposure to the elements over time that affect all colorimeters. We recommend doing this yearly. "

I just don't understand how significant this drift can be and if a prosumer like me needs to be concerned about it (and also don't know the cost involved in sending back for recalibration).

I don't think I'm too concerned about speed and only plan to use HCFR, so the Colormunki Display sounds like it would be a good option. On the other hand the i1Display Pro is only another 50%/$70...

Any idea how significant the drift we are talking about it?

Thanks again,

-fafrd
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post #5 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

I got a Colormunki display and got an awesome result using it and HCFR to calibrate my Samsung ES8000. As long as your paycheck doesn't depend on having a calibrated display, I think that this solution represents tremendous value for money.

If you don't want to learn HCFR though you will have to get a more expensive meter as the Colormunki Display only works with the useless xrite software, HCFR, and argyllcms.

As far as drift goes, I don't know if there is any information out there regarding drift rates of various meters. In any case if you are very concerned about it, you can either invest in a spectro as fairchild99 noted, or profile your meter against a spectrometer periodically (assuming you can find someone to lend you one)

No, paycheck does not depend on having a calibrated display...

And since I only plan on using HCFR, it sounds like Colonmunki Display may be the way to go.

How often do you recalibrate your ES8000? Do you do anything to check the accuracy of your Colormunki in terms of drift?

I'm not very concerned about drift except what I read on Kal's site. If using a ne-year-old Colormunki to calibrate an LED/LCD without calibrating the colorimeter first can result in visibly distorted image, I'd be concerned. If the result will in any case be an order of magnitude better than what you could do with your eyeballs, I would not be so concerned.

The problem with all of the information that is out there is that it is hard to find any scale - are we talking about drift over a year in the 0.1% range, the 1% range or the 10% range???

-fafrd

p.s. when did you first purchase your Colormunki Display and how long did it take you to master the basics?
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post #6 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 02:46 PM
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Where are you supposed to get your colorimeter re-calibrated? I just got a C3 meter as I am a newbie as well.

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ZKACAL View Post

Where are you supposed to get your colorimeter re-calibrated? I just got a C3 meter as I am a newbie as well.

Zkacal,

what made you choose the C3 over some of the less expensive and more expensive options? Have you tried your first calibration yet?

-fafrd
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post #8 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

No, paycheck does not depend on having a calibrated display...

And since I only plan on using HCFR, it sounds like Colonmunki Display may be the way to go.

How often do you recalibrate your ES8000? Do you do anything to check the accuracy of your Colormunki in terms of drift?

I'm not very concerned about drift except what I read on Kal's site. If using a ne-year-old Colormunki to calibrate an LED/LCD without calibrating the colorimeter first can result in visibly distorted image, I'd be concerned. If the result will in any case be an order of magnitude better than what you could do with your eyeballs, I would not be so concerned.

The problem with all of the information that is out there is that it is hard to find any scale - are we talking about drift over a year in the 0.1% range, the 1% range or the 10% range???

-fafrd

p.s. when did you first purchase your Colormunki Display and how long did it take you to master the basics?
I actually just recently rechecked the calibration linked in my signature below, which I posted in May 2013. The results were all basically the same 7 months later so I guess the meter hasn't drifted yet, or it hasn't drifted enough to make a significant difference (all results were within like 0.2 dE of the measurements I had previously posted). I got the colormunki in maybe march of last year? Overall I was coming from zero experience whatsoever regarding calibration, so there was a lot of trial and error and a lot of reading. I would estimate that I put in around 80-100hrs total, but I got pretty OCD about the whole thing. If I had to recalibrate my display now from scratch, knowing what I know about my specific display, I think it would take me maybe 1-2hrs to get a good calibration.

In terms of meter calibration versus setting up by eye, the difference is night and day. A properly calibrated TV looks absolutely stunning in comparison to what you can do by eye.


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post #9 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ZKACAL View Post

Where are you supposed to get your colorimeter re-calibrated? I just got a C3 meter as I am a newbie as well.

+1 I also have a C3 that I received with my Calman license.

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post #10 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:32 PM
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Zkacal,

what made you choose the C3 over some of the less expensive and more expensive options? Have you tried your first calibration yet?

-fafrd

LOL, I knew I preferred the CalMAN software so I bought their beginners bundle that included the C3. I'm about to calibrate for the first time now. I use a swiffer broom to keep it from falling off the TV.

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+1 I also have a C3 that I received with my Calman license.

I guess we can ask Spectra Cal tech support.

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post #12 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:45 PM
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Hwello

The cost of recalibrating or recertifying an inexpensive meter such as the C3 isn't feasible.
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post #13 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

when did you first purchase your Colormunki Display and how long did it take you to master the basics?

I actually just recently rechecked the calibration linked in my signature below, which I posted in May 2013. The results were all basically the same 7 months later so I guess the meter hasn't drifted yet, or it hasn't drifted enough to make a significant difference (all results were within like 0.2 dE of the measurements I had previously posted). I got the colormunki in maybe march of last year? Overall I was coming from zero experience whatsoever regarding calibration, so there was a lot of trial and error and a lot of reading. I would estimate that I put in around 80-100hrs total, but I got pretty OCD about the whole thing. If I had to recalibrate my display now from scratch, knowing what I know about my specific display, I think it would take me maybe 1-2hrs to get a good calibration.

In terms of meter calibration versus setting up by eye, the difference is night and day. A properly calibrated TV looks absolutely stunning in comparison to what you can do by eye.

That's very helpful, thanks. So it sounds like if I decide to go ahead with a Colormunki Display now and learn up on my existing LG 55LW5600, when I get my new LED/LCD near the end of the year, I should be too concerned that the Colormunki Display will have drifted so much as to result in a garbage calibration...

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post #14 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Hwello

The cost of recalibrating or recertifying an inexpensive meter such as the C3 isn't feasible.

Would that also apply to the Colorimunki Display or the D3? If they can be recalibrated, how is that done and how much does it cost?

thanks,

-fafrd
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Would that also apply to the Colorimunki Display or the D3? If they can be recalibrated, how is that done and how much does it cost?

thanks,

-fafrd
the display pro, 3 is offered by CP,LS,CM an has the internal tables are fined tuned.
They could theoretically redo the tables if the precision drifts.
As far as price to check/redo the tables, I don't know. That would have to be a company policy.

As far as I know they do not support the colormunki meter.


HFCR and Argyll support the colormunki.

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post #16 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:14 PM
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I have not read much about the colormunki meter.
looks like a D3. cheaper priced. Not sure why.
I have read that the D3 is very stable and people with experience report
it has not drifted in over a year.
D3 is sealed and by all accounts accurate out of the box.

Colormunki is supported by HFCR and not a lot of time has passed since
it was added.

Instead of sending in low cost meters people get spectros or have a friend
check the accuracy with a spectro.

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post #17 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Would that also apply to the Colorimunki Display or the D3? If they can be recalibrated, how is that done and how much does it cost?

thanks,

-fafrd
the display pro, 3 is offered by CP,LS,CM an has the internal tables are fined tuned.
They could theoretically redo the tables if the precision drifts.
As far as price to check/redo the tables, I don't know. That would have to be a company policy.

As far as I know they do not support the colormunki meter.


HFCR and Argyll support the colormunki.

OK, thanks. So if I understand correctly, the 'X-Rite EODIS3 i1Display Pro' (want to make sure I have the product name correct - this is the Display Pro, 3, correct?) have internal correction tables that can be recalibrated to compensate for drift.

Who are CP, LS, CM and does this mean that the Display Pro, 3 has to be purchased through one of them?

And understand than the Colormunki can not be recalibrated by these vendors, but does the Colormunki have the same correction tables?

Is drift and this recalibration stuff something that a newbie just beginning into this stuff should be concerned about?

-fafrd
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

I have not read much about the colormunki meter.
looks like a D3. cheaper priced. Not sure why.
I have read that the D3 is very stable and people with experience report
it has not drifted in over a year.
D3 is sealed and by all accounts accurate out of the box.

Colormunki is supported by HFCR and not a lot of time has passed since
it was added.

Instead of sending in low cost meters people get spectros or have a friend
check the accuracy with a spectro.

OK, thanks. SO with a spectro you can at least check whether the colorimeter has drifted too far or not, but not correct it if it has, right?

-fafrd
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post #19 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:19 PM
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You can correct it in the calibration software you are using. HCFR has an option to import a correction matrix which you create.


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post #20 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

OK, thanks. SO with a spectro you can at least check whether the colorimeter has drifted too far or not, but not correct it if it has, right?

-fafrd
meter has an internal table that is "flashed" with correction numbers.
this is factory and CP chromapure, CM calman, LS lightspace have the ability to "reflash".
All the software has what is called offset tables created with a spectro and colormeter.
basically you read White, red, green,blue with a spectro then read again with a colormeter.
the differences in numbers is an "offset" entered into the software program.
called "profiling".
so, 1 internal tables
2, software compensation.
these are the methods to get a low cost meter to be accurate.

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post #21 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

OK, thanks. SO with a spectro you can at least check whether the colorimeter has drifted too far or not, but not correct it if it has, right?

-fafrd
meter has an internal table that is "flashed" with correction numbers.
this is factory and CP chromapure, CM calman, LS lightspace have the ability to "reflash".
All the software has what is called offset tables created with a spectro and colormeter.
basically you read White, red, green,blue with a spectro then read again with a colormeter.
the differences in numbers is an "offset" entered into the software program.
called "profiling".
so, 1 internal tables
2, software compensation.
these are the methods to get a low cost meter to be accurate.

Got it - thanks. So Chromapure, Calman and Lightspace can do this calibration against a spectro and flash the offsets into the hardware (recalibrate the hardware) vesrus using a spectro as a second meter to enter the offsets into software such as HCFL which can be done DIY, right?

-fafrd
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post #22 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

You can correct it in the calibration software you are using. HCFR has an option to import a correction matrix which you create.

Understand now, thanks. To do this you need a second meter such as a spectro, right?

-fafrd
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post #23 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Got it - thanks. So Chromapure, Calman and Lightspace can do this calibration against a spectro and flash the offsets into the hardware (recalibrate the hardware) vesrus using a spectro as a second meter to enter the offsets into software such as HCFL which can be done DIY, right?

-fafrd
they use a really nice meter, multi thousands of dollars type.
I know when you buy their Display3 meter, it already has the improved tables.
I am unsure if they will redo them and for how much.
So you would have to buy their meters to start.
I don't think they would check a meter version they did not sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Understand now, thanks. To do this you need a second meter such as a spectro, right?

-fafrd
yup, you need a "reference" meter that read your TV.
I say your TV because one reason for correction tables is the different type light emitted
from LCD CCFL vs LCD LED, vs Plasma, vs OLED.
even the LED is different between manufactureres as well as white LED, RGBY LED,
CCFL, Plasma like KURO vs Panny etc.

it gets deep eek.gif

Everyone who gets into this hobby goes thru the "is it accurate" conundrum.

You have to decide how much you will invest and many times you will do the work.
I know a D3 is a very good meter and if taken care of will last.
Colormunki is something I can't say about.
on paper it seems as good.

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