Sharp Elite Grey Scale Calibration Issue - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 02-25-2014, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently had an ISF calibrator out to calibrate my 70" Elite.
BTW, this a refurbished unit as my original developed a solid red line on the right side of the display.

He ran into a problem with grey scale where the red, green or blue points will not move much at all.
This was attempted in 2 point and 10 point in THX-Movie as well as ISF Day/Night with the same result.
While he is an highly experienced calibrator, his experience with the Sharp Elite is limited.

Have any of you ran into this issue or heard of it, with this display?
And is there a workflow solution?

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KONICA MINOLTA CS-200 - Chroma Meter - Spectroradiometer based Color Analyzer
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SENCORE - VP403CSH - VideoPro Multimedia Video Generator

Thanks

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post #2 of 36 Old 02-25-2014, 07:23 AM
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If I remember right, in ISF Day/Night modes there are only 10 point WB controls, no 2 point. In THX modes you can choose 2 or 10 point. If it were only the 10 point adjustment that is the problem, I'd say it is most likely displacement of the 10 point controls. I guess it could be considered a design flaw; if you don't leave the contrast setting very high where it's clipping WTW and leave gamma at it's default position, the 10 intervals begin effecting the wrong brightness interval as you go higher. In other words, if you reduce contrast to give full WTW headroom and you reduce the gamma control, for example, the first few intervals will behave normally. But as you get up around 60%, the interval that should control 60% actually controls 67%, and the 70 interval will control around 82%, the 80 interval will control 95%, etc... These are not actual figures, I am just using them for illustration. To fix, he needs to keep contrast high to where it's not clipping video white but it is clipping WTW above 235-237, and do not adjust the overall gamma control or if he must do it only a couple clicks.

However, this does not have any effect on the 2 point controls, so I am not quite sure what the problem is with them.
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post #3 of 36 Old 02-25-2014, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Chad.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I do believe he set the "brightness/black" level first, maybe that's the issue.

The 2-point was in THX mode.

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post #4 of 36 Old 02-25-2014, 09:41 AM
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hi
I did an Elite recently (that was also a refurb).
The 2 point / 10 point system only got it less blue....and never better than 7800K ish (or whatever it was).
It was impossible to get it to D65.
Other controls worked as they should (cms).
The warranty company didnt want to assist further (they offered to change out a board) but stated they did not do white balance adjustments.
FWIW,

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post #5 of 36 Old 02-25-2014, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Gregg,

I believe you know my calibrator Dave.
Would you be willing to document your experience with the refurbished 70"?
I need ammunition to approach Sharp with.

I think it's reasonable for me to expect that this TV should be able to be calibrated.

Thank-You

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post #6 of 36 Old 02-26-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcole1224 View Post

Gregg,

I believe you know my calibrator Dave.
Would you be willing to document your experience with the refurbished 70"?
I need ammunition to approach Sharp with.

I think it's reasonable for me to expect that this TV should be able to be calibrated.

Thank-You

Not grayscale but at the 2011 Shootout it was promised that there would be a color fix within 30 days. We're still waiting. Here's a result of calibrating the CMS at 75% saturation. There were three 70" Elites in this house and they were all about the same.

MediaRoomDayAdvancedColorManagementReport_AVS.pdf 339k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf MediaRoomDayAdvancedColorManagementReport_AVS.pdf (338.5 KB, 51 views)
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post #7 of 36 Old 02-26-2014, 08:09 AM
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There is nothing wrong with the CMS on the Elite's surely you jest !! biggrin.gif

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post #8 of 36 Old 02-27-2014, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcole1224 View Post


Would you be willing to document your experience with the refurbished 70"?
I need ammunition to approach Sharp with.

I think it's reasonable for me to expect that this TV should be able to be calibrated.

Thank-You

Ha ha ha ha ha! No offense. You'll be lucky to get hold of ANYONE at Sharp who even knows what calibration is, let alone cares enough about it not working to tell anybody.

Years ago, when Pioneer was making the best video displays on the planet, they had a development budget of $X to spend on adding CMS controls. When those dollars were gone, there was nothing else they could do and the TVs were manufactured with extremely lame CMS controls. The following year, there were ZERO budget dollars for CMS controls and the TVs were shipped with the same "broken" CMS controls as the previous year.

There is ZERO implied calibration capability for ANY consumer video display. Sharp calibration controls have NEVER been very good, ever. If you wanted a TV that could be calibrated well, that's easy enough to find out about on AVS before you commit to a purchase.
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post #9 of 36 Old 03-01-2014, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Ha ha ha ha ha! No offense. You'll be lucky to get hold of ANYONE at Sharp who even knows what calibration is, let alone cares enough about it not working to tell anybody.

Years ago, when Pioneer was making the best video displays on the planet, they had a development budget of $X to spend on adding CMS controls. When those dollars were gone, there was nothing else they could do and the TVs were manufactured with extremely lame CMS controls. The following year, there were ZERO budget dollars for CMS controls and the TVs were shipped with the same "broken" CMS controls as the previous year.

There is ZERO implied calibration capability for ANY consumer video display. Sharp calibration controls have NEVER been very good, ever. If you wanted a TV that could be calibrated well, that's easy enough to find out about on AVS before you commit to a purchase.
\

No offense taken.
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV and I didn't stay a Holiday Inn Express last night, but..
When ISF modes are hyped in advertising, it does kinda suggests accurate calibration.
ANY display that sells in excess of 7,000 (i did not pay that much) has a de-facto assumption of basic calibration.

Mine is not a matter of absolute color accuracy, but basic grey scale, which IMO is basic calibration.
Mine not only fails but fails miserably.
My premise is that the set has not been properly service level calibrated at the factory and as such is defective.

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post #10 of 36 Old 03-01-2014, 09:25 PM
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The real issue is why ISF allows their "seal" on a product that can't be calibrated particularly well... isn't it?

Your TV is no better or worse than any other sample of your model... 99.999% guaranteed. It would be DAMN difficult to make a single TV that wasn't setup exactly like every other TV... assembly lines aren't tuned to produce accurate products, but they are certainly tuned to produce CONSISTENT products.

Go to an owner's forum for your model and ask if ANYBODY has calibrated one well. Don't be disappointed when everyone who has tried ran into the same sorts of problems you had. It's very traditional Sharp to have TVs with problems that can't be fixed... ISF logo or not.

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post #11 of 36 Old 03-01-2014, 10:03 PM
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I've had success calibrating gamma and grayscale on them. CMS controls function more or less properly, though color saturation and gamut luminance are all over the place.

All the recent Sharps have a 6 point gamma/grayscale adjustment in the service menu, though it's VERY difficult and non-intuitive. I wonder if the SM controls in the set in question would be functional.
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post #12 of 36 Old 03-01-2014, 10:31 PM
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Maybe the OP should consider investing in an external videoprocessor like a lumagen
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post #13 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I've had success calibrating gamma and grayscale on them. CMS controls function more or less properly, though color saturation and gamut luminance are all over the place.

All the recent Sharps have a 6 point gamma/grayscale adjustment in the service menu, though it's VERY difficult and non-intuitive. I wonder if the SM controls in the set in question would be functional.

Hi Chad,

I have an Aquos and find the 6 point grayscale difficult.
Patterns are included that kick in when any of the R,G or B controls are adjusted. As mentioned none of presets are below 9K so adjusting #6 needs a large reduction of blue. However when D65 to TV pattern it is still very high in blue compared with my normal 100% pattern (seen by hitting 'commit').
Why is this? Is #6 supposed to be 100% white or is it another value? Unfortunately Sharp Support are unhelpful in UK claiming Factory and Support Calibration done in Spain and Japan only.
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post #14 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 12:44 PM
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Maybe the OP should consider investing in an external videoprocessor like a lumagen

I have a Duo that does a great job in taming the Sharp but at a cost because out of the box Colour temperature throughout the full Grayscale range is in excess of 9K. For some reason Sharp seem to like this very high CT.
Surely it is much better to do this large adjustment via TV controls rather than risk loss of content via an external VP?
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post #15 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I have a Duo that does a great job in taming the Sharp but at a cost because out of the box Colour temperature throughout the full Grayscale range is in excess of 9K. For some reason Sharp seem to like this very high CT.
Surely it is much better to do this large adjustment via TV controls rather than risk loss of content via an external VP?
Have you looked inside the color space to see how the color is affected overall by a 6-point gamut adjustment?

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post #16 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Chad,

I have an Aquos and find the 6 point grayscale difficult.
Patterns are included that kick in when any of the R,G or B controls are adjusted. As mentioned none of presets are below 9K so adjusting #6 needs a large reduction of blue. However when D65 to TV pattern it is still very high in blue compared with my normal 100% pattern (seen by hitting 'commit').
Why is this? Is #6 supposed to be 100% white or is it another value? Unfortunately Sharp Support are unhelpful in UK claiming Factory and Support Calibration done in Spain and Japan only.

Interesting.
For those that are curious, I've attached the section of the service manual that deals with the 6-point controls.
Seems it's shared among selected Sharp TVs.

I believe that on some individual Elites, the service level calibration is so out of wack, that calibration to D65 becomes near impossible. I accepted a refurbished unit when my original went bad, but I don't know what, if any repairs were performed.
ElitePages.pdf 171k .pdf file
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post #17 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Have you looked inside the color space to see how the color is affected overall by a 6-point gamut adjustment?
Right, the Sharp Elite is a prime example of a display that can significantly benefit from a 3D LUT calibration.
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post #18 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Chad,

I have an Aquos and find the 6 point grayscale difficult.
Patterns are included that kick in when any of the R,G or B controls are adjusted. As mentioned none of presets are below 9K so adjusting #6 needs a large reduction of blue. However when D65 to TV pattern it is still very high in blue compared with my normal 100% pattern (seen by hitting 'commit').
Why is this? Is #6 supposed to be 100% white or is it another value? Unfortunately Sharp Support are unhelpful in UK claiming Factory and Support Calibration done in Spain and Japan only.
Yes, it is very difficult. It is possible, though, to get it done entirely in the SM, but it requires a lot of getting into and out of the SM. Also on one occasion I changed the SM settings just enough that it gave the user controls the range they needed.
After adjusting in the SM, get out and measure the TV, but use high/cool color temp rather than warm.
I wrote down what values the 6 points corresponded to one time, but it's in my old notebook at home and I'm on the road now.
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post #19 of 36 Old 03-03-2014, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Yes, it is very difficult. It is possible, though, to get it done entirely in the SM, but it requires a lot of getting into and out of the SM. Also on one occasion I changed the SM settings just enough that it gave the user controls the range they needed.
After adjusting in the SM, get out and measure the TV, but use high/cool color temp rather than warm.
I wrote down what values the 6 points corresponded to one time, but it's in my old notebook at home and I'm on the road now.

Thanks Chad,

I would appreciate any help I can get, I am using the higher ones because the CT is lower when using 'intensive' and 'Dynamic' rather than 'Standard' with 'Soft', very strange mode choices by Sharp.
There is not really much to choose between any combination regarding CT, but is there any other reason to not choose 'warm'?

Regarding actual calibration, the internal patterns are a nuisance because as I say they are inaccurate (if they are meant to show white) so I get it somewhere closer to D65 with them then make RGB adjustments by guessing a value, hitting 'commit' (pattern disappears) then I can see my Duo or Ted's pattern.
Getting 100% accurate is easy but before adjusting other 5 points I run a check on the rest of the grayscale.
Then comes the hard bit, apart from usual interaction I find that #1 mainly affects 5% to 15%, #2 affects 20% to 35%, #3 affects 40% to 50%, #5 affects 55 to 70, #5 affects 75 to 85% but #6 affects 100% to 85% so that is my problem.
I can get perfect 100% (with #6) but because it affects 80 to 95% as well I must sacrifice those points to RGB Balance if I want accurate 100% white

Rest of it can be got somewhere near (with a gamma of 2.2) but how can I correct high end twist? In fact am I correct in assuming that 100% white accuracy is of paramount importance?

Tried moving RGB at 100% up / down in tandem to 'wag the tail' and try to remove the 'kink' at high end but I seem to do more damage than good.
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post #20 of 36 Old 03-03-2014, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Have you looked inside the color space to see how the color is affected overall by a 6-point gamut adjustment?

Thanks for reply Tom,

I have found that using 100% saturation for gamut calibration is not good. Two reasons for that firstly my red and to a lesser extent my blue will not fully saturate, secondly I get better Colorchecker results using 75% saturation patterns.

When I look at say a 25% saturation sweep gamut without any CT adjustment the effect is that all colours are generally skewed over to the left (towards blue). It would seem primaries can be pulled in to hit correct saturation at 100% but when this is attempted red simply will not change hue and sticks on the yellow side of red, insistance on changing hue (y value) causes saturation to suddenly decrease thus avoiding 100% point.
Similar problem with blue disallowing 100% saturation at correct angle.

If Auto Calibration is tried at 100% saturation patterns with either Chromapure or Calman the software has often left me with red a totally different colour altogether (green or even yellow have been noticed). All credit to both softwares but it simply won't go to where it should.

All above was found using native CT and Duo doing all the work.

I am currently attempting to see if I can change things by using TV's SM to get grayscale somewhere near D65 and say 2.2 gamma then let Duo do its stuff.
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post #21 of 36 Old 03-03-2014, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Right, the Sharp Elite is a prime example of a display that can significantly benefit from a 3D LUT calibration.

Mine is an Aquos but I have found exactly that.

I have an eeCB which seems to be able to avoid the red and blue problems of my panel successfully without causing high reds to become a different colour altogether.
This also was calibrated with a high CT and used my graphics card to PG . I used Calman 5 software.

On the subject of PG's may I make a plea to have Ted's disc incorporated into Calman 5 sooner rather than later. I know DerekS has promised it but how much easier would it be for Duo owners to use Ted's disc rather than have to buy an expensive PG for 3D LUT purposes.
I cannot praise this disc enough or for that matter the fantastic after sales support from Ted.
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post #22 of 36 Old 04-28-2014, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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An update:

With an idea that maybe I could adjust service level settings to allow grey scale to be adjusted, I bought a used Xrite 1IPro off Ebay.
Funny thing, running HCFR with the meter I was able to calibrate grey scale.

With the default gamma setting, I had to set the position 10 control to minimum on blue and then use the position 9 to adjust the 100% level.
Position 8 for 90%, etc. This meter doesn't function all that well below 20%, so I ignored 0 and 10%. Gamma was around 2.4.

With the gamma setting at +1, the position 10 control worked on 100%, position 9 at 90%, etc. Gamma is around 2.2 and that's where I left it.

My thoughts are, even if the meter is not 100% accurate, it does prove, IMO, the grey scale can be adjusted.
More later.

Edit: Blue levels were high across the board, 100% level was 129%, I was able to bring this down to 100% and get pretty close to 6500.

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post #23 of 36 Old 05-04-2014, 06:45 PM
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My advice to you: Avoid Sharp televisions! On my Sharp, the movie mode doesn't even work from source to source. I can't achieve a great gamma and grayscale. And the CMS is broken. Some colors it's the tint control and others it's the saturation.   

 

On a side note, after applying the latest firmware update, the audio got screwed up.

 

It is super annoying, especially comparing to other brands of TV that I have.

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post #24 of 36 Old 05-05-2014, 07:19 AM
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My advice to you: Avoid Sharp televisions! On my Sharp, the movie mode doesn't even work from source to source. I can't achieve a great gamma and grayscale. And the CMS is broken. Some colors it's the tint control and others it's the saturation.   

On a side note, after applying the latest firmware update, the audio got screwed up.

It is super annoying, especially comparing to other brands of TV that I have.

Exactly, their internal CMS system is broken, these displays can't be calibrated using TV's display controls... Toshiba have similar problem too. If you want image fidelity something that a proper calibrated display can offer, it's better to stay away from these 2 brands, unless you gonna spend later extra money for a 3D LUT Box or Video Processor later.
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post #25 of 36 Old 05-05-2014, 10:48 AM
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The cms on recent Sharps has worked fine for me as long as you calibrate at a lower sat point and then take full sat and lum runs to see the overall effect.

Edit: that is not to say they don't benefit from an external LUT box; they need it worse than any other I've seen. But the internal cms controls can still make a significant improvement.
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post #26 of 36 Old 05-08-2014, 02:17 AM
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Exactly, their internal CMS system is broken, these displays can't be calibrated using TV's display controls... Toshiba have similar problem too. If you want image fidelity something that a proper calibrated display can offer, it's better to stay away from these 2 brands, unless you gonna spend later extra money for a 3D LUT Box or Video Processor later.
Any other brands that are not safe?
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post #27 of 36 Old 05-08-2014, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Exactly, their internal CMS system is broken, these displays can't be calibrated using TV's display controls... Toshiba have similar problem too. If you want image fidelity something that a proper calibrated display can offer, it's better to stay away from these 2 brands, unless you gonna spend later extra money for a 3D LUT Box or Video Processor later.
Any other brands that are not safe?

Samsung / Sony / LG / Panasonic TV's are ok.

Sony has decided to feature only RGB Balance controls (Grayscale). no Full CMS.

I have no idea for Philips lately.
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post #28 of 36 Old 05-08-2014, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Samsung / Sony / LG / Panasonic TV's are ok.

Sony has decided to feature only RGB Balance controls (Grayscale). no Full CMS.

I have no idea for Philips lately.
What about cheaper brands like Vizeo?
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post #29 of 36 Old 05-08-2014, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ZKACAL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Samsung / Sony / LG / Panasonic TV's are ok.

Sony has decided to feature only RGB Balance controls (Grayscale). no Full CMS.

I have no idea for Philips lately.
What about cheaper brands like Vizeo?

I have no idea, they are not coming to EU I think.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #30 of 36 Old 05-08-2014, 03:57 AM
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The cms on recent Sharps has worked fine for me as long as you calibrate at a lower sat point and then take full sat and lum runs to see the overall effect.

Edit: that is not to say they don't benefit from an external LUT box; they need it worse than any other I've seen. But the internal cms controls can still make a significant improvement.

I have an Aquos which does not have a CMS but my problems are with Grayscale at least on my UK model.
RGB balance can be adjusted via SM on a 6 point scale.
There is no problem adjusting these points for RGB to get a flat gamma of about 2.2, in fact is is very easy (even for me), the unfortunate thing is its lowest mode for CT is > 9000K.

Adjusting only point #6 (for 100% white) to reduce CT to D65 needs a massive blue reduction which upsets gamma and RGB balance appreciably at 70 to 95% white.
Reducing blue at other 5 points is easy to do but causes massive disruption of RGB balance and gamma along its scale.
Possibly this is because of overuse of the TV RGB controls as mentioned by Ted previously.. (a 50% reduction of the blue control is typical). This needs tweaking on an industrial scale.

So my experience is to buy an Aquos Sharp if you want to work at a Colour Temperature of about 9000K. However leave them alone if you prefer your calibration to match all your sources and operate at 6500K.

Perhaps I have a rogue LED LCD but Sharp Support claim that mine is within their normal factory tolerances but are reluctant to tell me what they are.
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