Klein K10A to Jeti 1211 comparison for plasma question? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Version 1.1 Encoding/Authoring is taking 100% of my free time, not enough time here to play with my new toy (JETI 1211).

I see you show the non stock "Kimber Kable" in your Jeti 1211 box.

btw, be careful of what USB port you plug your 1211 into. Even though the Jeti will work off of a backward comparable USB 3 port the measurements may be different.
I also tried the USB 3 port using my AQVOX and 1211, still different measurements.
It would seem that a eSATA/USB 2.0 connector port will work.

ss

Don't worry, I'm prepared smile.gif

AN 23 - Summary of measures in case of USB communication problems

Does your AQVOX USB Low-Noise 5V Isolated Linear Power Supply improved repeatability?

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post #32 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Don't worry, I'm prepared smile.gif

AN 23 - Summary of measures in case of USB communication problems

Does your AQVOX USB Low-Noise 5V Isolated Linear Power Supply improved repeatability?

I have a new PC coming to replace my old XP PC, so I will be running test's with the new PC. However the AQVOX does a very nice job on the noise factor, that I did test out.

ss

Why I did post what I did was because of the differences in my meter profiling using CM.
When I used a USB 2 port and a USB 3 port.

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post #33 of 73 Old 03-31-2014, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

However the AQVOX does a very nice job on the noise factor, that I did test out.

I'm curious how You perform noise tests with a meter and what You discovered? Can You please provide some more details?
The only thing that comes in my mind is the repeatability.

Reason I'm asking is that I actually build a ultra-low-noise PSU by myself.
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post #34 of 73 Old 03-31-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

I'm curious how You perform noise tests with a meter and what You discovered? Can You please provide some more details?
The only thing that comes in my mind is the repeatability.

Reason I'm asking is that I actually build a ultra-low-noise PSU by myself.

I use Jeti LiVal software.
However that software works only for Jeti meters.

ss

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post #35 of 73 Old 04-02-2014, 09:41 AM
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Does the USB 2 to USB 3 matter also apply to the i1PRO spectros or c6 colorimeter?

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #36 of 73 Old 04-03-2014, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Does the USB 2 to USB 3 matter also apply to the i1PRO spectros or c6 colorimeter?

Yes, It's better to always use USB 2.0 connections, for example see what X-Rite says:

X-Rite Meters Connectivity Issues With USB 3.0

Even though USB 3.0 was designed to be backwards compatible with USB 2.0 devices, there have been some users reporting device connection issues with USB 2.0 devices. Some examples of X-Rite USB 2.0 devices are: i1Display Pro, ColorMunki Create, ColorMunki Smile, ColorMunki Photo, ColorMunki Design, ColorMunki Display, i1Display 2, i1Pro, and i1Pro 2. Basic instrument connection troubleshooting is advised such as…reboot the computer, try another USB port (USB 2.0 if available), turn off or set exclusions in virus protection software, try a powered USB hub, etc…

Some recent MacBookPro and MacBook Air laptops might come with only USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt communication ports. While these have been the most commonly reported computer with this USB 2.0 device-to-USB 3.0 port connectivity issue, there have been similar reports on PCs as well as other Macs using USB 3.0. The common thread appears to be USB 3.0 at this time…not necessarily operating system or manufacturer.

X-Rite customers have reported to X-Rite Technical Support that the use of a powered USB 2.0 hub has been the most successful resolution to this connectivity issue. This seems to be the simplest and least invasive way to resolve this issue. Purchase a powered USB 2.0 hub, connect the hub to the computer’s USB 3.0 port, and then plug the device into the hub. If a powered USB 2.0 hub is not available, try connecting to a monitor's USB port if so equipped.

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post #37 of 73 Old 04-03-2014, 09:09 AM
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But how do I know if I'm having an issue or not? My laptop has 3 USB 3.0 ports and just one USB 2.0 port

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #38 of 73 Old 04-03-2014, 09:30 AM
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But how do I know if I'm having an issue or not? My laptop has 3 USB 3.0 ports and just one USB 2.0 port

Hello, use one meter each time, no both meters connected the same time.

I have 3x USB 2.0 and 1x USB 3.0 here and always I'm using one meter at a time also, to prevent any possible driver issue/conflict

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post #39 of 73 Old 04-05-2014, 04:07 PM
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Here is a link to one of my comparison test.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467563/official-panasonic-vt60-vt65-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/13830#post_24563192

What I was showing is how well a K10-A can read low light and how repeatable the K10-A is at low light readings. I was using my VT65 and trying to see how low the black level can go on that display.

The K10-A was profiled by a Jeti 1211 in the first two screen shots, the third screen shot is the K10-A without being profiled but using Klein's very good meter profile for Plasma's.
The LUT is a 9300 patch set that these tests where run on , and the K10-A was profiled by the Jeti 1211.

ss

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post #40 of 73 Old 04-05-2014, 09:56 PM
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Looks like using the Klein on it's own would lead to a pretty substantial green emphasis in the white balance. That underscores the importance of profiling off an accurate spectro even with high end and/or "enhanced" colorimeters.
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post #41 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 05:03 AM
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Looks like using the Klein on it's own would lead to a pretty substantial green emphasis in the white balance. That underscores the importance of profiling off an accurate spectro even with high end and/or "enhanced" colorimeters.

I see here arround 2.0 dE2000 difference on 100% White Patch when I compare my JETI 1211 vs. the Klein's Plasma table by measuring a KURO, but Klein Table created with Offset from Minolta CS-2000 using a Panasonic Plasma.

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post #42 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Here is a link to one of my comparison test.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467563/official-panasonic-vt60-vt65-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/13830#post_24563192

What I was showing is how well a K10-A can read low light and how repeatable the K10-A is at low light readings. I was using my VT65 and trying to see how low the black level can go on that display.

The K10-A was profiled by a Jeti 1211 in the first two screen shots, the third screen shot is the K10-A without being profiled but using Klein's very good meter profile for Plasma's.
The LUT is a 9300 patch set that these tests where run on , and the K10-A was profiled by the Jeti 1211.

ss
Your third shot shows two things....

The NIST trace difference between Minolta and Jetti
The problem with the stock plasma table and 2012/2013 Panasonic table.

I've seen the prior when comparing Minolta meters against Photo Research. I discovered the latter when comparing my Klein's stock table against a CS-2000 with VT/ZT60 and prior 2012 Panasonic plasma evaluations. The stock table is fine on other plasmas.
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post #43 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Your third shot shows two things....

The NIST trace difference between Minolta and Jetti

Don't know if it's directly related to the topic but I've recently had a chance to test my Jeti 1211 against Photoresearch PR740 and another Jeti 1211. Both Jeti's agreed with 0.0001 x/y precision. PR740 had a difference of 0.0017 x and 0.0014 y. on white. So if both meters have 0.001 accuracy, they're both perfectly right wink.gif The test was performed on Dolby PRM-4200 studio display.
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post #44 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 06:19 PM
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Your third shot shows two things....

The NIST trace difference between Minolta and Jetti
The problem with the stock plasma table and 2012/2013 Panasonic table.

I've seen the prior when comparing Minolta meters against Photo Research. I discovered the latter when comparing my Klein's stock table against a CS-2000 with VT/ZT60 and prior 2012 Panasonic plasma evaluations. The stock table is fine on other plasmas.

I don't really know or think it is a problem with the Klein stock table. I think its more of a problem with the display itself, and its for that reason I am better off doing a on-screen profile of the K10 with the Jeti 1211. As we know these plasma VT60's can very/drift somewhat and its for that reason that a calibration that you me or anybody do will probably not be ideal for a different VT60.

Luhr/Thomas of Klein did a complete comparison of my I1Pro2 with there CS-2000 on many different displays, one of them was a Panasonic plasma. This comparison was void of tables. Anyway the plasma by far was the hardest to get even close for the I1Pro 2.
This was also amplified with using the Jeti 1201 on the VT60 plasma. Tom also ran test on the same two Jeti 1201 on his plasma, although his results where not as bad as mine they did not meet Jeti's specs. As were the Jeti 1211 will meet Jeti's specs.

Please keep in mind that those CM test's where done right after I made the LUT (9300 custom patch set profile) and installed the LUT into the eecolor box. I used the Jeti 1211 to profile the K10-A before I ran the 9300 point patch set (customized by zoyd) profile using LS for my VT60.

My pre calibration set-up was the normal things as you do but only setting the 100% and 30% point grayscale/color temp and native color Gamut, never the detailed gamma adjustments.

ss

btw. If you want to ask Luhr I would be happy to give you the test results done by Klein if he gives me the ok. Also if you want PM me and I will send you a link to all the test results done by Jeti, Tom and me on the Jeti 1201.

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post #45 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 06:28 PM
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also important to mention here that there are unit variations between the individual K10's... now this will only surface if you use slot 0 (no-compensation)... obviously the (pre-loaded) Plasma compensation table is the least useful of all the tables because of the (unstable) display it was profiled on...

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post #46 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 06:36 PM
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also important to mention here that there are unit variations between the individual K10's... now this will only surface if you use slot 0 (no-compensation)... obviously the (pre-loaded) Plasma compensation table is the least useful of all the tables because of the (unstable) display it was profiled on...

Yes thanks for adding, and how about your new tools for making custom Profile/LUT's, like making custom meter profiles. biggrin.gif

ss
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post #47 of 73 Old 04-06-2014, 06:40 PM
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Yes thanks for adding, and how about your new tools for making custom Profile/LUT's, like making custom meter profiles. biggrin.gif

ss

yes, you can use the free Meter Comparison tool to compare a K10 meter profile against a Jeti meter profile.... simply do both of your profiles in LS and load in the tool or enter Yxy manually... smile.gif
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post #48 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I don't really know or think it is a problem with the Klein stock table. I think its more of a problem with the display itself, and its for that reason I am better off doing a on-screen profile of the K10 with the Jeti 1211. As we know these plasma VT60's can very/drift somewhat and its for that reason that a calibration that you me or anybody do will probably not be ideal for a different VT60.
it is the table. The drive scheme of the 2012/2013 Panasonics causes it to provide erroneous measurements, The 2012/2013 Panasonics are NOT like prior models. The drive scheme is totally different. Add that with their louvre filter and you require a unique profile.
Quote:
Luhr/Thomas of Klein did a complete comparison of my I1Pro2 with there CS-2000 on many different displays, one of them was a Panasonic plasma. This comparison was void of tables. Anyway the plasma by far was the hardest to get even close for the I1Pro 2.
This was also amplified with using the Jeti 1201 on the VT60 plasma. Tom also ran test on the same two Jeti 1201 on his plasma, although his results where not as bad as mine they did not meet Jeti's specs. As were the Jeti 1211 will meet Jeti's specs.
you're speaking of sub field syncing issues. Even the CS-2000 will have issues unless you know what settings to use in its setup menu.
Quote:
btw. If you want to ask Luhr I would be happy to give you the test results done by Klein if he gives me the ok. Also if you want PM me and I will send you a link to all the test results done by Jeti, Tom and me on the Jeti 1201.
thanks but I know who Luhr is and can get in contact with him if need be,
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post #49 of 73 Old 04-15-2014, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

However the AQVOX does a very nice job on the noise factor, that I did test out.

I'm curious how You perform noise tests with a meter and what You discovered? Can You please provide some more details?
The only thing that comes in my mind is the repeatability.

Reason I'm asking is that I actually build a ultra-low-noise PSU by myself.

Hey, SS + DrFaxe, do you have more data about testing your meters with or without linear low loise power supplies?

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post #50 of 73 Old 04-15-2014, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Hey, SS + DrFaxe, do you have more data about testing your meters with or without linear low loise power supplies?

Ted,

I have been meaning to do just that and also compare my lumagen's window patterns using your disc and the oppo 95 as a point of reference.

ss
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post #51 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 02:46 AM
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Hey, SS + DrFaxe, do you have more data about testing your meters with or without linear low loise power supplies?

Hi Ted,

I only can speak for the i1pro2 and my PSU. Yes, there is a slight improvement in repeatability. I never used the stock cable for the i1pro2 and immediately switched to a HQ 1.5m USB cable. Just with this cable the difference in repeatability is 0.0002 - 0.0003 for all xy of RGB @100%, except y of green, this is 0.0005 - 0.0006. Guessing the small fluctuations are caused by the plasma TV.

With my PSU the difference in repeatability of all xy of RGB @100% are within 0.0002 - 0.0003, so y of green improved.
But I can not say at the moment whether this is releated to the ripple noise or the rock stable voltage, knowing that the i1pro2 is quite power hungry.
Have to do some more testings about that, but less time due to heavy work load. mad.gif

I'm still improving the PSU to push the ripple noise level in the middle uV range and completely skipped my old design. I had to use shielded housing and cables and keep the wiring on the PSB circuit as short as possible, so switched to a double layer PCB design.
But the cost is still <50% of the Aqvox PSU and I have two 5V / 3A outputs. smile.gif


BTW:
the meter setup I use works like charm for profiling. Aligning the meters to the TV takes less than 1 minute and meters can be switched within 5s.
In 8 of 10 times I have a good profile on the first attempt, 0.0001 - 0.0002 difference in xy, max. 2 attempts needed. I'm very happy with that and it was worth the money for sure.
Have You tried the rails for Your meters?
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post #52 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Hi Ted,

I only can speak for the i1pro2 and my PSU. Yes, there is a slight improvement in repeatability. I never used the stock cable for the i1pro2 and immediately switched to a HQ 1.5m USB cable. Just with this cable the difference in repeatability is 0.0002 - 0.0003 for all xy of RGB @100%, except y of green, this is 0.0005 - 0.0006. Guessing the small fluctuations are caused by the plasma TV.

With my PSU the difference in repeatability of all xy of RGB @100% are within 0.0002 - 0.0003, so y of green improved.
But I can not say at the moment whether this is releated to the ripple noise or the rock stable voltage, knowing that the i1pro2 is quite power hungry.
Have to do some more testings about that, but less time due to heavy work load. mad.gif

I'm still improving the PSU to push the ripple noise level in the middle uV range and completely skipped my old design. I had to use shielded housing and cables and keep the wiring on the PSB circuit as short as possible, so switched to a double layer PCB design.
But the cost is still <50% of the Aqvox PSU and I have two 5V / 3A outputs. smile.gif


BTW:
the meter setup I use works like charm for profiling. Aligning the meters to the TV takes less than 1 minute and meters can be switched within 5s.
In 8 of 10 times I have a good profile on the first attempt, 0.0001 - 0.0002 difference in xy, max. 2 attempts needed. I'm very happy with that and it was worth the money for sure.
Have You tried the rails for Your meters?

Any chance you can share your PSU design and pcb design? Would be interested in using for my probes.

Thanks
Rew

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post #53 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 05:24 AM
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of course. Once the double layer PCB is finished I can share everything, no big secrets inside. But still with a single layer layout, plastic housing and non-shielded power cables the ripple noise was around 2mV. I think there is no need to improve that from technical side, I'm just curious where are the lower limits.
I will make a drawing and part list soon...
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Gee, Thanks will be looking forward to it!

Thanks
Rew

Rew
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post #55 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Hey, SS + DrFaxe, do you have more data about testing your meters with or without linear low loise power supplies?

BTW:
the meter setup I use works like charm for profiling. Aligning the meters to the TV takes less than 1 minute and meters can be switched within 5s.
In 8 of 10 times I have a good profile on the first attempt, 0.0001 - 0.0002 difference in xy, max. 2 attempts needed. I'm very happy with that and it was worth the money for sure.
Have You tried the rails for Your meters?

Hello DrFaxe,

I can't use rails to my current setup because JETI 1211 must be placed around 60cm behind Klein K-10A to match the FOV of 2 meters so I'm using 2 tripods and I'm matching the angles of TV vs. Meters with my High Resolution Dual Axis Digital Protractor Inclinometer and the distance with my Handheld Laser Distance Meter. wink.gif

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post #56 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post


BTW:
the meter setup I use works like charm for profiling. Aligning the meters to the TV takes less than 1 minute and meters can be switched within 5s.
In 8 of 10 times I have a good profile on the first attempt, 0.0001 - 0.0002 difference in xy, max. 2 attempts needed. I'm very happy with that and it was worth the money for sure.
Have You tried the rails for Your meters?

Matching carefully my meters, I had these differencies after verifing my meter profiling correction table last night, with only one attempt.

White

x 0.00037668
y 0.00026701
Y 0.00060344

Red

x 0.00004343
y 0.00002668
Y 0.00547750

Green

x 0.00003337
y 0.00007439
Y 0.00079499

Blue

x 0.00000841
y 0.00007954
Y 0.00042581

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post #57 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 05:49 AM
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Uuuhh, 60cm difference is too much for the rail system. I use the same Dual Axis Digital Protractor Inclinometer as You + Laser Distance Meter as well. But how do You align the horizotal angle between meter and TV?

Looking at Your numbers You seem to have no problem using 2 tripods. smile.gif
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post #58 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Uuuhh, 60cm difference is too much for the rail system. I use the same Dual Axis Digital Protractor Inclinometer as You + Laser Distance Meter as well. But how do You align the horizotal angle between meter and TV?

Looking at Your numbers You seem to have no problem using 2 tripods. eek.gif

I'm measuring the angle of the TV first, dead center where the meter will measure and I'm matching the same dual axis angles to both meters, It's pretty painful to match 0.01°, while I'm checking both meters lazer aiming to be dead center while I'm displaying a Meter Positioning Pattern from my disk. wink.gif

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post #59 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 06:00 AM
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Sorry for my ignorance, but with the Dual Axis Digital Protractor Inclinometer You can only meassure the vertical angle. I don't see a method to meassure the horizontal angle.
With the rail system I use I just meassure the distance at both ends to the TV to make sure the meters are aligned horizontally.
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post #60 of 73 Old 04-16-2014, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Sorry for my ignorance, but with the Dual Axis Digital Protractor Inclinometer You can only meassure the vertical angle. I don't see a method to meassure the horizontal angle.
With the rail system I use I just meassure the distance at both ends to the TV to make sure the meters are aligned horizontally.

It has to do with the placement:

If you place the Protractor horizontally above your meter it will display to you dual axis.



If you place it vertically you can see only the one.

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