Klein K10A to Jeti 1211 comparison for plasma question? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 73 Old 03-09-2014, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone who has both comment on how close the differences are between the K10A and 1211 when it comes to plasma?

I've been entertaining the idea of picking up a K10A to calibrate my plasmas but the cost dynamics changes for a hobbyist if it takes a 1211 to get it profiled accurately. In other words, why spend the first $6K if you're going to have to spend an additional $10K to get accurate measurements. I like calibrating as an interest but not $16K's worth.

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post #2 of 73 Old 03-09-2014, 12:33 PM
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The first step to improve your display performance is to move from internal controls calibration to 3D-LUT Calibration/Profiling and later spend money for better meters.

You can see the 1D-LUT + 6-Axis CMS vs. 3D Cube Sizes Comparisons here.

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post #3 of 73 Old 03-09-2014, 01:59 PM
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Funny, I too am actually considering a K10A and have been wondering the same thing. I have my VT60, i1Pro 2, i1Display Pro, Accupel DVG-5000 and Calman 5. Seems like the missing link is a K10A but requiring a Jeti or equivalent to profile it is overboard for a hobbyist such as myself. I bought a Lumagen but when my TV was calibrated in November by a pro, he said I didn't need it for the VT60 and a 3D LUT would make an imperceptible difference on the VT60. After seeing the K10 my TV was calibrated with, I knew I had to have it, I like gadgets.

Anyways, the more people that weigh in on the OP's post, the better. $7k is a lot to spend on a hobby and I wouldn't want to get it if it was going to need something like a Jeti to go with it.
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post #4 of 73 Old 03-09-2014, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tedd,

Seems that LUT calibration has gone a long way in the past year.

I'll be there eventually but would like to explore the hardware side first.

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post #5 of 73 Old 03-09-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkymonkcp View Post

Funny, I too am actually considering a K10A and have been wondering the same thing. I have my VT60, i1Pro 2, i1Display Pro, Accupel DVG-5000 and Calman 5. Seems like the missing link is a K10A but requiring a Jeti or equivalent to profile it is overboard for a hobbyist such as myself. I bought a Lumagen but when my TV was calibrated in November by a pro, he said I didn't need it for the VT60 and a 3D LUT would make an imperceptible difference on the VT60. After seeing the K10 my TV was calibrated with, I knew I had to have it, I like gadgets.

Anyways, the more people that weigh in on the OP's post, the better. $7k is a lot to spend on a hobby and I wouldn't want to get it if it was going to need something like a Jeti to go with it.

I have the K10-A and IMO, here what I would do in your situation:

1) get LS HCL (u don't need HCC yet)
2) get the eeColor LUT box

that'll be around US$1,000 (maybe a tiny bit less if u follow the link in my signature and use the discount) but that will definitely improve your IQ. The i1D3 handling in LS is very good.

After that get access to the workflow tools on DCT and get Ted's disc and u'll have a complete package.

I agree with Ted, get all this other equipment before you upgrade meters, b/c the i1D3 (for what it is and especially with the Avg LLH enabled), is a very good meter.

- M
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post #6 of 73 Old 03-10-2014, 01:32 AM
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This level of equipment is really overkill for a hobbyist, however who am I to say what you want to spend your hard earned bucks on.

As I offer a service to calibrate for other people it is essential to cover as much range of technologies as possible, this is why I bought the Jeti 1211.
I was in pains over the choice with regards the K10a, however I don't regret the jeti 1211 one bit. One day I might still get the K10a, but the i1Dpro is tough to beat coupled to the 1211 as the only advantage a K10 has is really in the 3Dlut speed.
For non 3Dlut, the i1Dpro or C6 is all you need as the limitations of the displays won't gain you much more than a click or two, if that. Of course the Jeti does polish that last click or two.

My money would vote for 1211 or other similar spectro device in that price bracket because ultimately they are better for light description. The i1pro good as it is, may or may not improve a K10a, this depends on the display and other factors.

But then, I still question the gains when limited by the displays and system, which leans the argument back to improving the base calibration with some sort of external lut box.
From there choose your poison for software, they all work well enough.

Last 2c, for every $1000 bucks of value, bank a week of consideration time. If after 7 weeks or 11 weeks you still have the need....well your choice is made.

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post #7 of 73 Old 03-10-2014, 03:20 AM
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The K10 has quite a few advantages over the i1D3: better low light capability, better speed and the laser aiming system is something I don't wanna miss. ..

Most importantly: it has the best REPEATABILITY of any meter... it is by far the best workhorse to get 10K points done fast... ;-)
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post #8 of 73 Old 03-10-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

The K10 has quite a few advantages over the i1D3: better low light capability, better speed and the laser aiming system is something I don't wanna miss. ..

Well since it costs ~$6750 more than an i1D3, it had better have a "few advantages" .... wink.gifbiggrin.gif

OTOH, if I had 20, 50 ... 100 displays to run 3D LUTs upon (and were getting paid for the services,) I might look at a K10a.
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post #9 of 73 Old 03-11-2014, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

In other words, why spend the first $6K if you're going to have to spend an additional $10K to get accurate measurements. I like calibrating as an interest but not $16K's worth.

+ Add the cost of your software upgrade to support Klein K-10A or JETI 1211, you will need CalMAN Studio/Business/Ultimate to run 3D-Cube Calibrations, or ChromaPure Professional, or LightSpace HCC.
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post #10 of 73 Old 03-11-2014, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

The K10 has quite a few advantages over the i1D3: better low light capability, better speed and the laser aiming system is something I don't wanna miss. ..

Most importantly: it has the best REPEATABILITY of any meter... it is by far the best workhorse to get 10K points done fast... ;-)

Yes Mike, I agree completely.

I have only had a C6 and used it on a VT50 and VT60. The problem I saw was in the area of reading low light. After comparing the C6 to the K10-A I was hooked on the repeatable and accurate low light readings and the speed of the K10-A. However by the time I got the K10-A I was only doing LUT calibrations.
Also one thing to keep in mind is the many profiles the K10 comes with from Klein, those profiles do work very well.

That said,if you are only going to do a normal type of calibration (10Pt Graysacle, 6Pt CMS) then the K10-A is a nice addition but a Jeti 1211 used by itself may be the better solution. Although be prepared for some very slow read times for your low light readings.

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post #11 of 73 Old 03-11-2014, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess the question here would be would someone be better off with a Jeti 1211 and profile their i1d3 from it or get a K10-A and rely on the plasma tables being accurate for both a Panasonic 65VT50 and a Samsung 64F8500?

Even if you're only starting out doing a traditional calibration, I presume that eventually I'll be doing LUTs calibration for the Samsung 64F8500. Doubt I'd bother doing a LUTs calibration on the Panasonic.

Which brings up still another question. Are plasma displays enough different where a single profile wouldn't apply to the main ones?.......or do you really have to do individual profiles? Makes a difference when considering color meters vs spectros.

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post #12 of 73 Old 03-11-2014, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I guess the question here would be would someone be better off with a Jeti 1211 and profile their i1d3 from it or get a K10-A and rely on the plasma tables being accurate for both a Panasonic 65VT50 and a Samsung 64F8500?

Even if you're only starting out doing a traditional calibration, I presume that eventually I'll be doing LUTs calibration for the Samsung 64F8500. Doubt I'd bother doing a LUTs calibration on the Panasonic.

Which brings up still another question. Are plasma displays enough different where a single profile wouldn't apply to the main ones?.......or do you really have to do individual profiles? Makes a difference when considering color meters vs spectros.

Jim,

my VT50 here looks fantastic with a LUT.... that is the superior image...... only beaten by my VT60... cool.gifbiggrin.gif but u def wanna LUT the VT50 !

regarding meters, I have to say, if u get a high-end meter... for me the first one was the K10 because it is such a workhorse.... and again, repeatability....

u can use ur i1Pro for offsets and if it is off (too much) in one channel, u can do a custom meter offset...

- M

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post #13 of 73 Old 03-11-2014, 08:07 AM
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Jim,

my VT50 here looks fantastic with a LUT.... that is the superior image...... only beaten by my VT60... cool.gifbiggrin.gifbut u def wanna LUT the VT50 !

regarding meters, I have to say, if u get a high-end meter... for me the first one was the K10 because it is such a workhorse.... and again, repeatability....

u can use ur i1Pro for offsets and if it is off (too much) in one channel, u can do a custom meter offset...

- M

I use a 3D LUT to calibrate my VT50 with panel brightness high for a 50 foot Lambert output (Lumagen small patterns). The picture is gorgeous.

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post #14 of 73 Old 03-29-2014, 07:30 PM
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I couldn't resist getting the Klein after I found out about the awesome deal SpectraCal had going. Klein plus the VideoForge II for just the price of the Klein.

Left case:

- Klein K10-A
- i1Pro 2

Right case:

- AccuPel DVG-5000
- VideoForge II
- Amazon USB 3.0 hub
- Belkin portable power strip
- Various sizes of Redmere HDMI cables (I love these things)
- USB and Ethernet cables

I tried to fit in my Lumagen but ran out of room and it wouldn't have made sense anyways. A little much for just my 55" VT60 (65" VT60 coming next week).

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post #15 of 73 Old 03-29-2014, 07:34 PM
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^^^

You will not regret getting the K10-A. Best meter on the market !
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post #16 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 02:12 AM
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post #17 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Ted,

When you do get some time, don't forget to run a 3 way comparison between your K10A, Jeti 1211 and your i1pro2 on your plasma.

Curious minds would like to know what you find as the differences.
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post #18 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 03:33 AM
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Ted,

When you do get some time, don't forget to run a 3 way comparison between your K10A, Jeti 1211 and your i1pro2 on your plasma.

Curious minds would like to know what you find as the differences.

well, it would rather be the spectros against each other...

the K-10 does have an internal Plasma offset but Klein uses a Panny for that and Ted has a Kuro.... and the K10 - no matter how greatly shielded - is a colorimeter and will eventually drift...

but that's why you have a spectro ;-)

- M

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post #19 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Ted,

When you do get some time, don't forget to run a 3 way comparison between your K10A, Jeti 1211 and your i1pro2 on your plasma.

Curious minds would like to know what you find as the differences.

well, it would rather be the spectros against each other...

the K-10 does have an internal Plasma offset but Klein uses a Panny for that and Ted has a Kuro.... and the K10 - no matter how greatly shielded - is a colorimeter and will eventually drift...

but that's why you have a spectro ;-)

- M

Klein's Plasma Table vs. JETI 1211 on 100% White is about 2.0 dE2000 difference (using KURO)

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post #20 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 03:53 AM
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Klein's Plasma Table vs. JETI 1211 on 100% White is about 2.0 dE2000 difference (using KURO)

did u have a chance to compare the i1Pro ?

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Quote:
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well, it would rather be the spectros against each other...

the K-10 does have an internal Plasma offset but Klein uses a Panny for that and Ted has a Kuro.... and the K10 - no matter how greatly shielded - is a colorimeter and will eventually drift...

but that's why you have a spectro ;-)

- M

Yeah, probably a waste of time but curiosity would have me wondering what I gained for that last $10 K I spent. smile.gif

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post #22 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
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Klein's Plasma Table vs. JETI 1211 on 100% White is about 2.0 dE2000 difference (using KURO)

did u have a chance to compare the i1Pro ?

Very quickly yes, I remember that @ 100% Red the difference was about xy 0.004 0.004 (JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2) and I'm expecting bigger difference with i1PRO1.

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post #23 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 03:58 AM
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Very quickly yes, I remember that @ 100% Red the difference was about xy 0.004 0.004 (JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2) and I'm expecting bigger difference with i1PRO1.

The green channel accuracy is another concern on the i1Pro v1....
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Yeah, probably a waste of time but curiosity would have me wondering what I gained for that last $10 K I spent. smile.gif

Didi u get the K10 or the Jeti ? smile.gif

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post #25 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
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well, it would rather be the spectros against each other...

the K-10 does have an internal Plasma offset but Klein uses a Panny for that and Ted has a Kuro.... and the K10 - no matter how greatly shielded - is a colorimeter and will eventually drift...

but that's why you have a spectro ;-)

- M

Yeah, probably a waste of time but curiosity would have me wondering what I gained for that last $10 K I spent. smile.gif

Jim, since you have stored meter correction table for your displays (from JETI), to measure the difference, just measure your display with the correction table enabled and re-measure with meter correction disabled, it will show you the difference.

You can use the Verify Calibration Tools workflows you got from my calibration disk order.

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post #26 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Very quickly yes, I remember that @ 100% Red the difference was about xy 0.004 0.004 (JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2) and I'm expecting bigger difference with i1PRO1.

The green channel accuracy is another concern on the i1Pro v1....

JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2 @ 100% Green, about xy 0.0035 0.002

But generally these comparisons have to do with measuring each display type/model.

It goesn't mean that this difference is fixed, by measuring another display maybe is larger or smaller.

But it was what I was expecting about a 10nm spectro like i1PRO1/2.

The most impressive was the Y difference to all measurements, for example i1PRO2 was measuring 15% less cd/m2 in 100% White.

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post #27 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2 @ 100% Green, about xy 0.0035 0.002

obviously there are unit variations, but i1Pro tend to have a green push while i1Pro 2 tend to have a red push...
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post #28 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Jim, since you have stored meter correction table for your displays (from JETI), to measure the difference, just measure your display with the correction table enabled and re-measure with meter correction disabled, it will show you the difference.

You can use the Verify Calibration Tools workflows you got from my calibration disk order.

That wouldn't factor in the difference due to the i1pro2 being a 10nm versus the Jeti's 5. Question there is how does the difference in measurement size affect the results.

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post #29 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Jim, since you have stored meter correction table for your displays (from JETI), to measure the difference, just measure your display with the correction table enabled and re-measure with meter correction disabled, it will show you the difference.

You can use the Verify Calibration Tools workflows you got from my calibration disk order.

That wouldn't factor in the difference due to the i1pro2 being a 10nm versus the Jeti's 5. Question there is how does the difference in measurement size affect the results.

For LightSpace users it's very easy to check this without taking 17/21-Point Cube measurements twice! wink.gif

Start by measuring with JETI 1211 WRGB Patches to create a Meter Profiling Table and later re-measure the same patches with i1PRO2....

After that open these 2 measurement files and write down the differences they have in xy for each color..... for example lets say at Green you have found 0.002 0.002....

Later open LightSpace and create a custom ColorSpace based to he REC.709 targets but add or subtract the color differencies your meters have.... for example change the green xy from 0.300 0.600 to 0.302 0.602 etc. etc.

After that step measure your display with 17/21-Point Cube Resolution, and later load the measurements data and generate 2 colorspace conversions, one with REC.709, and one with your custom Color Space..... export these 2 corection tables and load them to eecolor.......

load some movies and swap the eeColor memories on the fly during the movie playback or using some paused scenes. wink.gif

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post #30 of 73 Old 03-30-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Version 1.1 Encoding/Authoring is taking 100% of my free time, not enough time here to play with my new toy (JETI 1211).

I see you show the non stock "Kimber Kable" in your Jeti 1211 box.

btw, be careful of what USB port you plug your 1211 into. Even though the Jeti will work off of a backward comparable USB 3 port the measurements may be different.
I also tried the USB 3 port using my AQVOX and 1211, still different measurements.
It would seem that a eSATA/USB 2.0 connector port will work.

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