Lumagen Radiance Mini-3D VS Accupel DVG-5000 VS ?, digital errors etc... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
In my toolcase i have both lumagen radiance mini-3d and accupel dvg-5000. The first one is more than just a generator, but some programs (f.eg. Lightspace CMS) support it as a hardware generator. I decided to run some "scientific" tests, knowing that Tom Huffman found some differences between the patches from them. However the method He used didn't give an answer which one is correct.

To get direct digital values I used the terrifict studio display Dolby PRM-4200. It has 'cursor' option which can display pixel value in specified place on-screen. I used multiple programs to drive the generators - Calman, Lightspace CMS, as well as used inbuilt Lumagen's patters.



Test results: Lumagen is not a reliable pattern source! In some cases digital values are shifted by 2 bits! Accupel is bit perfect all the time (there was one wrong value in whole run, that might have been a typo).

Both sources were tested in RGB-Video mode, as well as YCbCr 4:2:2 8-bit mode.

Check out the spreadsheet. More tests will come later (Ted's disc etc.)

PatternGeneratorTestDolbyMonitor.xlsx 24k .xlsx file
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File Type: xlsx PatternGeneratorTestDolbyMonitor.xlsx (23.6 KB, 61 views)
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post #2 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 03:05 PM
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I'd note a couple of things.

I've noticed differences aswell with clients Mini's verse my generator, but the question is, does it matter?

It is a video processor for scalling and so forth first.
There is also forced processing paths which cannot be bypassed.
Consequently there is a chance that error may accumilate in there somewhere.

I would consider the lumagen range pattern generators, but not reference generators.
The same problem of terms happen when using a PC or laptop HDMI output and software pattern generator.

The difference with the lumagen though over other forms of pattern generators that are not reference is that it stays in the signal path. Because you adjust based upon the displays response to the sources, such as the lumagen does it actually matter if there are minor errors. The calibration corrects this. If the error was major where you ran into 8bit error through over adjustment then it would fail, but because it stays in the path the lumagen and display become one.
Doesn't help the sources error prior to the lumagen though.

The key problem though is if someone was trying to use a mini3D as a reference signal generator then removing it from the chain.

There is a clear difference between a varified reference signal generator and a device that can generate patterns.

Actually what ALL source devices need is an input HDMI that uses the output HDMI(pass through) but goes through the processing. Then plug a reference generator in at the start of the chain or circular reference the mini3D , ie mini output into source, source to mini out to display.

Alas we can dream.

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post #3 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 03:36 PM
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would love to see the YCbCr 444 test with the Lumagen and as Joe has partially implied, the Lumagen output depends on the setup of the input that you are using...

although it would seem that YCbCr 422 is the best output option from the Lumagen as it is 12-bit per pixel output while YCbCr 444 is dithered to 8-bit and may introduce static noise in darker patches...


but with so many options and dither in play, maybe (hopefully !) there's one that has more accurate output ? smile.gif


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post #4 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

would love to see the YCbCr 444 test with the Lumagen and as Joe has partially implied, the Lumagen output depends on the setup of the input that you are using...

with so many options and dither in play, maybe there's one that has more accurate output ? smile.gif

- M

I'll definitely test as soon as i have some free time (probably in next two weeks). Also I'll test reference signal sent throught lumagen, Ted's disc, and maybe the new pattern generator from DVDO - AVLab TPG.
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I'd note a couple of things.

I've noticed differences aswell with clients Mini's verse my generator, but the question is, does it matter?

It is a video processor for scalling and so forth first.
There is also forced processing paths which cannot be bypassed.
Consequently there is a chance that error may accumilate in there somewhere.

Joe, you're probably right asking that question. Check out that post from Tom Huffman. He found average dE as hight as 0.8 on some color sets. Is it relevant? For "average" home user maybe not much, but for enthusiasts, or even worse.. professionals who do some studio work, like me? It's just unacceptable to have 0.8dE inherited from the source. Besides, there is no reason for a digital source to have any errors like that, come on, it's not a cheap chineese electronic device. It's a 1500$+ dedicated video processor.

And it's really a shame that terrific programs like Lightspace CMS support only that, inaccurate, pattern generator. I hope Steve will reconsider supporting Accupel.
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post #5 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mkoper View Post

I hope Steve will reconsider supporting Accupel.

well, they are adding support for the Accupel... although it's been a while since they started.... biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #6 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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"a while" are really easy words, but I understand that Steve has a lot of other imporant things to implement wink.gif Anyway I bought that Lumagen to use it as Lightspace generator only. It's was supposed to be the way to reliably calibrate my plasma using custom patches. Now I can't because .8 dE's left will be unacceptable, so this Lumagen is basically useless for me, eh... Maybe someone from Lumagen will develop a firmware fix for that?
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post #7 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mkoper View Post

"a while" are really easy words, but I understand that Steve has a lot of other imporant things to implement wink.gif Anyway I bought that Lumagen to use it as Lightspace generator only. It's was supposed to be the way to reliably calibrate my plasma using custom patches. Now I can't because .8 dE's left will be unacceptable, so this Lumagen is basically useless for me, eh... Maybe someone from Lumagen will develop a firmware fix for that?

did u by any chance test direct HDMI output of your graphic card (with all ICC etc turned off) using the LS internal patch generator ?

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post #8 of 87 Old 04-08-2014, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

did u by any chance test direct HDMI output of your graphic card (with all ICC etc turned off) using the LS internal patch generator ?

Nope, but i checked the same from calman (their pattern window). The results are in spreadsheet: "all bit perfect, but if Video levels are selected in nvcpl, then some kind of temporal dithering is used f.eg. Ref. White alternates between 235 and 236". I believe LS patch generator would be correct too in that case.
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post #9 of 87 Old 04-18-2014, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mkoper View Post

Test results: Lumagen is not a reliable pattern source! In some cases digital values are shifted by 2 bits! Accupel is bit perfect all the time (there was one wrong value in whole run, that might have been a typo).

When referring to digital values, "shifted by 2 bits" implies multiply/divide by 4. A more accurate description would be +/-2.

I would like to see an RS232 sniffer in place so we can see exactly what commands Calman & Lightspace sent to the Radiance. It's entirely possible they requested incorrect RGB values.
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post #10 of 87 Old 04-19-2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post

When referring to digital values, "shifted by 2 bits" implies multiply/divide by 4. A more accurate description would be +/-2.

I would like to see an RS232 sniffer in place so we can see exactly what commands Calman & Lightspace sent to the Radiance. It's entirely possible they requested incorrect RGB values.

No need for a RS232 sniffer with CalMAN. Turn on full logging and we record the raw RS232 commands sent in the log file.

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post #11 of 87 Old 04-19-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

No need for a RS232 sniffer with CalMAN. Turn on full logging and we record the raw RS232 commands sent in the log file.

Nice! Have you confirmed this issue yourself? It seems pretty cut & dried since the monitor itself tells you exactly what values it received, but this is not something that mere mortals can check on our own.
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post #12 of 87 Old 04-20-2014, 08:19 AM
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The lumagens do manipulate the signal. If you stick a reference pattern generator on the input, it matches the radiance internal generator.

So it's fine for use if the radiance is part of the final signal path, but not as a reference generator.

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post #13 of 87 Old 04-21-2014, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post


So it's fine for use if the radiance is part of the final signal path, but not as a reference generator.

But if the lumagen manipulates levels an eeColor box after the lumagen would not be able to be properly calibrated, right?
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post #14 of 87 Old 04-21-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

But if the lumagen manipulates levels an eeColor box after the lumagen would not be able to be properly calibrated, right?

Correct, it would be extremely difficult to get very low dE's in a setup like that.

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post #15 of 87 Old 04-21-2014, 10:13 AM
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I have a Radiance Mini 3D an AccuPel and the new Video Forge II HDMI. Does anybody know how the Video Forge II compares in terms of accuracy? I was about to start a new thread because that is something I am very curious about.
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post #16 of 87 Old 04-21-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by funkymonkcp View Post

I have a Radiance Mini 3D an AccuPel and the new Video Forge II HDMI. Does anybody know how the Video Forge II compares in terms of accuracy? I was about to start a new thread because that is something I am very curious about.

It's dead-on.

We've got quantum data scopes, as well as software scopes we use with professional video I/O cards and it is spot on.

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post #17 of 87 Old 04-21-2014, 11:30 AM
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It's dead-on.

We've got quantum data scopes, as well as software scopes we use with professional video I/O cards and it is spot on.

Glad to hear that. I just wish it had a remote and USB connection. I can't wait till the JKP patterns are released for it.
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post #18 of 87 Old 04-22-2014, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoper View Post

"a while" are really easy words, but I understand that Steve has a lot of other imporant things to implement wink.gif Anyway I bought that Lumagen to use it as Lightspace generator only. It's was supposed to be the way to reliably calibrate my plasma using custom patches. Now I can't because .8 dE's left will be unacceptable, so this Lumagen is basically useless for me, eh... Maybe someone from Lumagen will develop a firmware fix for that?
Insofar as it was my post some time ago that inadvertently brought this issue to light, here is the data again after I looked at it carefully (I found some small, inconsequential errors) along with data for custom colors using the Blu-ray player.

generatorTest.pdf 20k .pdf file

I talked to Greg Rogers about this, and his explanation for how small digital errors can occur is that the design of the device may use a specific color space (e.g. YCbCr 422) as its internal working mode, so that any input must be first converted to that space. Then, the HDMI transmitter chip may perform one or more conversions--sometimes unnecessarily--prior to output. The bottom line is that from input to output there may be several format conversions. Errors may creep into this process, the size of which will be affected by the number of decimal places used and whether excess decimals are rounded or truncated. This explains why the errors I saw seemed to get larger as the video level got smaller. A fixed amount of error will have an increasingly profound effect on the output signal as that signal gets weaker. It is a similar phenomenon to what we see when a meter tries to read very dim sources, sometimes unsuccessfully. In these cases the inherent noise in the meter can overwhelm the signal when that signal is sufficiently small.

The AccuPel is basically immune to this because it stores and outputs all of the formats natively and performs no conversions at all.

Unless you have very, very small errors to begin with, I do not agree that a 0.8 dE error makes the Lumagen "basically useless". Errors inside the color space are routinely in the 4-6 dE range, so even with 0.8 dE left on the table you are still able to correct 80%+ of the existing error, which has profound effect on visible performance. The remainder is likely just above or even slightly below the threshold of visibility. Does this mean that this is nothing? No, of course. It would be better if it weren't there at all, but let's try to put this in perspective.

I have noticed a tendency recently with the increasing popularity of LUT calibration to focus on what are basically infinitesimal differences that have no effect on visible performance. What I find exciting about LUT calibration is that it offers a method to correct really large, easily visible errors within the color space that were previously uncorrectable. To do that you simply don't need a 4,000+ patch set and the ability to brag about dEs of 0.4 instead of 0.8.
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post #19 of 87 Old 04-22-2014, 02:04 PM
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^ Tom: Thanks. Please correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that what you are referring to only creates an "error" if the Radiance is being used solely as a pattern generator and the calibration is limited to using the TVs (or other devices) CMS to make corrections. The Radiance is removed from the video chain after the corrections are made. No "error" occurs if the Radiance is used for pattern generation as well as using the Radiance CMS to make corrections since any error is included in the meter reading results and these are presumably corrected by the Chromapure user and incorporated into the Radiance CMS which is used for viewing source material.
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post #20 of 87 Old 04-24-2014, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

^ Tom: Thanks. Please correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that what you are referring to only creates an "error" if the Radiance is being used solely as a pattern generator and the calibration is limited to using the TVs (or other devices) CMS to make corrections. The Radiance is removed from the video chain after the corrections are made. No "error" occurs if the Radiance is used for pattern generation as well as using the Radiance CMS to make corrections since any error is included in the meter reading results and these are presumably corrected by the Chromapure user and incorporated into the Radiance CMS which is used for viewing source material.
Calibration involves adjusting a control so that the test pattern measures as close as possible to an intended target. If a test pattern, hypothetically, displays x0.309, y0.329 when it is supposed to display x0.3127, 0.329, then the user will be prompted to raise the x value unnecessarily to meet the D65 target. I don't see what difference it would make whether the x value was raised by the test pattern source control or by the display control. It will will still be adjusted incorrectly.

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post #21 of 87 Old 04-24-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Calibration involves adjusting a control so that the test pattern measures as close as possible to an intended target. If a test pattern, hypothetically, displays x0.309, y0.329 when it is supposed to display x0.3127, 0.329, then the user will be prompted to raise the x value unnecessarily to meet the D65 target. I don't see what difference it would make whether the x value was raised by the test pattern source control or by the display control. It will will still be adjusted incorrectly.

That's true but not quite the situation here. According to sotti, the Lumagen is putting the right numerical values on the line but they get modified either by format conversion rounding errors or, more likely, one of the video processing blocks. So if the Lumagen remains in the signal path the adjustments will be correct. Same situation as a perfect disk pattern that gets modified during playback by the BD/DVD processing.
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post #22 of 87 Old 04-24-2014, 12:20 PM
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The latest Lumagen firmware release lists "Fix for bad onscreen test patterns within the grayscale command." Might that have an impact on these test results?
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post #23 of 87 Old 04-24-2014, 01:27 PM
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no, that was an unrelated bug about being able to actually change the test patterned viewed when in a manual greyscale adjustment

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post #24 of 87 Old 04-24-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

That's true but not quite the situation here. According to sotti, the Lumagen is putting the right numerical values on the line but they get modified either by format conversion rounding errors or, more likely, one of the video processing blocks. So if the Lumagen remains in the signal path the adjustments will be correct. Same situation as a perfect disk pattern that gets modified during playback by the BD/DVD processing.

Probably could have been more clear in post 19 but that is the point I was trying to make that it was my understanding that as long as the Radiance remained in the video path the results would be accurate assuming the meter was accurate and no operator error.
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post #25 of 87 Old 04-24-2014, 03:07 PM
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the real question is - and maybe somebody from Lumagen can chime in - how do we setup the Lumagen (when used as a pattern generator only) so that pattern output is accurate ?

which settings introduce no distortion of the patterns ?

all that is under the assumption that VP or general conversions do affect pattern output and that is why they differ... or maybe the pattern generator cannot do better than described in the OP ?

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post #26 of 87 Old 05-26-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

the real question is - and maybe somebody from Lumagen can chime in - how do we setup the Lumagen (when used as a pattern generator only) so that pattern output is accurate ?

which settings introduce no distortion of the patterns ?

all that is under the assumption that VP or general conversions do affect pattern output and that is why they differ... or maybe the pattern generator cannot do better than described in the OP ?
Has anyone from Lumagen stepped in here or elsewhere to clarify the issue of using the Radiance as a stand-alone pattern generator. What are the issues? Assuming there are issues, have they been fixed? Will they be fixed? I would like to hear this from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
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post #27 of 87 Old 05-26-2014, 01:49 PM
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^ Lumagen in the vp section has said they will look into it. They also said that numerous "experts" (my term) have reviewed in the past and found no problems. If you keep the Radiance in the viewing chain after calibration there is no issue even if the patterns are off,
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post #28 of 87 Old 05-27-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

^ Lumagen in the vp section has said they will look into it. They also said that numerous "experts" (my term) have reviewed in the past and found no problems. If you keep the Radiance in the viewing chain after calibration there is no issue even if the patterns are off,

Yes, I've seen where they say they are going to look into it, but nothing since.  To be clear, I'm questioning about using it as a stand-alone pattern generator using reference patterns, i.e., when it is not to be subsequently used in the signal path but as a pattern generator only.

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post #29 of 87 Old 05-27-2014, 08:19 AM
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Yes, I've seen where they say they are going to look into it, but nothing since.  To be clear, I'm questioning about using it as a stand-alone pattern generator using reference patterns, i.e., when it is not to be subsequently used in the signal path but as a pattern generator only.

Depends on your time frame and level of patience.

If you can't wait, dump it and get a dedicated signal generator and be done with it.

IMO, its very unlikely that the company that Lumagen sources this part from will go back and spend much time trying to fix it.....and we all presume that its even fixable.

If you do go the signal generator route, you might want to be sure that it'll do 4K. Even if you don't need 4K right away, you'll have it when you eventually will.

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post #30 of 87 Old 05-27-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

Yes, I've seen where they say they are going to look into it, but nothing since.  To be clear, I'm questioning about using it as a stand-alone pattern generator using reference patterns, i.e., when it is not to be subsequently used in the signal path but as a pattern generator only.

I agree 100% with Jim's post.

I have gone to using my PC and LS, CM or madVR to act as a pattern generator via HDMI. Seems to work well once you have taken the necessary steps to setup your PC's video card.

So now I have a 2041 that will output 4K patterns just sitting, taking up space. If Lumagen wouldn't have shown "reference patterns" in its setup I would have never gotten one. As far as "numerous experts" I would like to see that data.

ss .
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