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post #61 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

For all you LS users out there, I would like to see some posted data to show your results of your 3D LUTS. As a possible future LS owner, it just would be nice to see. I know in the past Ted and SS have posted there results, but IMO it is older data as I have not seen anything new for a while and i know that there have been many LS updates and improvements since there data has been posted. Looking forward to the results. Thanks in advance guys....

Hello, you can find my latest posting of 21-Point Cube Profiling here.

Testing Details

Display: Pioneer KURO 6090H

Meter Used: Klein K-10A

Software Used for Profing: LightSpace CMS 6.5.0.1817 (12 January 2014)

Measured Color Points: 9.261

Total Meter Reads: 9.261

Total Profiling Time: 2 Hours 34 Minutes

Room Conditions: Totally Black......with Notebook Screen / Plasma Closed, Klein was returing 0.00000 cdm/2 @ continious mode by pointing to any direction of the room.

Source: Pioneer LX-91 Blu-Ray Player with Ted's LightSpace CMS 1.1 Version Blu-Ray Disk using DIP Mode 1 sec. per Patch Chapter.

External Pattern Generator: None

Measurement Day: Sunday 12 January 2014 (LightSpace Software used)

Verification Report Day: Wednesday 15 January 2014 (CalMAN Software used) *I had no free time @ Sunday.

Verification Patterns: Pioneer LX-91 Blu-Ray Player with Ted's LightSpace CMS 1.1 Version Blu-Ray Disk using CalMAN Chapters.

Verification Software Used: CalMAN 5.2.2.1404.

Also I'm interested to see the opposite testing, I mean someone to calibrate the 3D-LUT with latest CalMAN and then use LightSpace for Verification since now we are able to check the dE from inside LightSpace or by using more advanced reporting using external LightSpace Tools.
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post #62 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 10:06 AM
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Hi Ibosley:

Re: "Tell me roughly about your investment, your tools, your expectations, and your subjective results."

Let me take some liberties and ask and answer a different question: "Using a 3D LUT CMS (e.g. Light Space) and eeColor box, can I see the same blu ray movie colors on my display as the director saw on their professional monitor during post production color grading?"

Short Answer: Yes, where the casual eye cannot tell the difference.

Last year, I simultaneously displayed Star Trek The Next Generation Season 2 Blu Ray on both my Penta 37" Grade 1 Broadcast Monitor (Set at 48nits) and on a 10ft wide Matte White Projector Screen (Light Space LUT Calibrated Epson 6010 projector, with eeColor,48nits). To the eye, the colors were identical. Both were LCD Technologies. I looked at many scenes. I was surprised on how close the colors were to each other. So surprised, I also used my PR-670 Spectroradiometer and took x,y,Y readings off the projector screen and compared them to readings from the Grade 1 monitor and the values were really close. I even converted the values to RGB and the RGB values were close, within a click or 2. Nothing scientific, hand grenade close enough. No, I did not compare the projector's colors without the eeColor attached ... that thought never dawned on me.

Light Space CMS has been used in post production studios for years and has passed the test of time. The most notable was the Movie "The Hobbit". Personally, I was attracted to Light Space because of all the 3D and 2D LUT tools. The best way to explain the value of these LUT tools is to give a rather "extreme" example ... just for clarification purposes. Not only can one LUT calibrate a display or projector with Light Space, you can also (here's the controversial part) "Calibrate a specific movie to your display or projector screen." I've done it many times. For instance, I've created blacker than black colors so the black in outer space looks blacker without altering the nearby colors of stars or galaxies. This actually made the stars look brighter and outer space look blacker. I know that the eye cannot see below video black, but you can see blacker than black if you crank up the brightness control high enough. loooool. Definitely a "WOW" moment. That's the power of Light Space.

Basically, the value of Light Space tools (these are all post calibration tools ... things one can do after the calibration of the display is done) is it can surgically change any color to another color without affecting nearby colors ... under certain "controlled conditions". Light Space has an arsenal of LUT tools. How creative one is in using Light Space is up to you. For instance, connecTEDDD's and Iron Mike's creativity led them to develop third party products on the Internet that's used with Light Space today. I'm about to launch a new business, based partly on the huge potential I see in Light Space as well. IMHO, Light Space is the future for Home Theater calibration. Just read some of my past posts to give you a better understanding and an idea of how Light Space can open up a new world of calibration in the Home Theater market. You'll find more information at my website, once it goes live.

Iron Mike's list of equipment is the hot set up in order to get started with Light Space. Good luck.

Kind Regards,

JJ
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post #63 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

For all you LS users out there, I would like to see some posted data to show your results of your 3D LUTS. As a possible future LS owner, it just would be nice to see. I know in the past Ted and SS have posted there results, but IMO it is older data as I have not seen anything new for a while and i know that there have been many LS updates and improvements since there data has been posted. Looking forward to the results. Thanks in advance guys....

In the context of this discussion, it would be more useful to see the results of a "regular" calibration vs. that of a 3d LUT, on various displays (this would essentially be a proxy test for display linearity).
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post #64 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

For all you LS users out there, I would like to see some posted data to show your results of your 3D LUTS. As a possible future LS owner, it just would be nice to see. I know in the past Ted and SS have posted there results, but IMO it is older data as I have not seen anything new for a while and i know that there have been many LS updates and improvements since there data has been posted. Looking forward to the results. Thanks in advance guys....

Here's a link to a calibration guide that not only explains the workflow step-by-step but includes dE validation with a 1K+ set...

Panasonic 65VT60 Calibration Guide Using Lightspace And eeColor LUT Box

Equipment, software and target used in the calibrations listed below:

Colorimeter: Klein K10-A
Spectro: i1Pro
Lightspace 6.6.0
Pattern generator: Lumagen with 11.11% (medium) windows
Calibration target: Rec 709 Gamma 2.2
LUT holder: eeColor LUT box with 65^3 LUT

Look at the dE at the bottom and the gamma and this is all achieved on an (unstable) Panny plasma... The image is beautiful, the latest Pannys are a dream... smile.gif

Some of the workflow is more advanced, but you can do 3D LUT cals using the simple steps I listed just a few posts ago... I did cals like that and I know SillySally did cals like that and the results were oustanding.
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post #65 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Also I'm interested to see the opposite testing, I mean someone to calibrate the 3D-LUT with latest CalMAN and then use LightSpace for Verification since now we are able to check the dE from inside LightSpace or by using more advanced reporting using external LightSpace Tools.

would love to see more reports of CM 3D LUTs here as well and also Argyll....

as for verification/validation, I love the speed of LS and what you can do with external tools but u soon u will be able to create and use custom validation patch sets in CM (for their reporting structure) so no more excuses for small validation sets ! smile.gif

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post #66 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Here's a link to a calibration guide that not only explains the workflow step-by-step but includes dE validation with a 1K+ set...

Panasonic 65VT60 Calibration Guide Using Lightspace And eeColor LUT Box

Equipment, software and target used in the calibrations listed below:

Colorimeter: Klein K10-A
Spectro: i1Pro
Lightspace 6.6.0
Pattern generator: Lumagen with 11.11% (medium) windows
Calibration target: Rec 709 Gamma 2.2
LUT holder: eeColor LUT box with 65^3 LUT

Look at the dE at the bottom and the gamma and this is all achieved on an (unstable) Panny plasma... The image is beautiful, the latest Pannys are a dream... smile.gif

Some of the workflow is more advanced, but you can do 3D LUT cals using the simple steps I listed just a few posts ago... I did cals like that and I know SillySally did cals like that and the results were oustanding.

Thank you sir! Those results look really promising. However maybe i should have been more clearer. Can you post results of a LS LUT that was generated only from LS software alone? If I am looking at that site correctly, the dE numbers at the bottom of the page are skewed because the LUT was altered by the tools provided by that website. I am sorry but a website to provide additional tools for LS users is not something i would have time to dive into. Though that website looks very appealing to LS users and if i had more time, i would probably enjoy that.

Ted...thank you for linking your results too. I must have missed it....
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post #67 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

Ted...thank you for linking your results too. I must have missed it....

For quick reference to this thread, I have collected some CalMAN Calibration Reports of LightSpace LUT's saved to eeColor from my KURO profiling with the patterns generated (profiling/verification) from my Blu-Ray Disk only (no use external pattern generator or notebook output):

with 17-Point Cube (4.913 Color Points) + iD3 can be found here. (It took 8H 11M, I used the 6 sec per color patch Chapter of my disk.)

with 17-Point Cube (4.913 Color Points) + Klein K-10A can be found here (It took 1H 22M, I used the 1 sec per color patch Chapter of my disk.)

with 21-Point Cube (9.261 Color Points) + Klein K-10A can be found here. (It took 2H 34M, I used the 1 sec per color patch Chapter of my disk.)
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post #68 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

Thank you sir! Those results look really promising. However maybe i should have been more clearer. Can you post results of a LS LUT that was generated only from LS software alone? If I am looking at that site correctly, the dE numbers at the bottom of the page are skewed because the LUT was altered by the tools provided by that website. I am sorry but a website to provide additional tools for LS users is not something i would have time to dive into. Though that website looks very appealing to LS users and if i had more time, i would probably enjoy that.

Ted...thank you for linking your results too. I must have missed it....

I don't but there are many on this forum, SillySally is your best bet.... but - and now I am a broken record - I can only stress how important larger validation patch sets are for a better analysis of the display's performance... so some reports u see on this forum were done before the ability for custom patch set import was available...

once u got ur meters set, I'd advice to make a decision on your LUT holder and then check out the various solutions available for that LUT holder: LS, CM and Argyll (not for Lumagen)... u can get trial versions (at least with LS) and Argyll is free anyways...

all easily doable... if u want to use a picture perfect calibration of the single Blu-ray chain check out Ted's disk...

but since u've been lurking for a while in the other threads u know already what to get.... biggrin.gif

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post #69 of 75 Old 04-30-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

I don't but there are many on this forum, SillySally is your best bet.... but - and now I am a broken record - I can only stress how important larger validation patch sets are for a better analysis of the display's performance... so some reports u see on this forum were done before the ability for custom patch set import was available...

once u got ur meters set, I'd advice to make a decision on your LUT holder and then check out the various solutions available for that LUT holder: LS, CM and Argyll (not for Lumagen)... u can get trial versions (at least with LS) and Argyll is free anyways...

all easily doable... if u want to use a picture perfect calibration of the single Blu-ray chain check out Ted's disk...

but since u've been lurking for a while in the other threads u know already what to get.... biggrin.gif

Yes currently i use an eec and use CM. I am looking forward to the custom validation patch set that spectracal hopefully will soon implement. Thanks again
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post #70 of 75 Old 05-01-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I also have a Lumagen 2041 with Darbee built in, but don't use it, because it limits the improvements of a large LUT.

The eeColor LUT would not be limited if the eeColor box was connected to the output of the Lumagen Radiance processor and if you did not move any primary/complementary colors with the Radance CMS controls. You would then have access to all the Radiance processing capabilities you did want to use (as a purist I'm torn between using Darbee processing and not using it... it does make images look more compelling, but it's doing something to images that was not put on the disc by the director/cinematographer... nevertheless, it is on almost all the time here).

Set the 3 Radiance Sharpness (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) to 2 or 3 and set the Radiance Texture controls to 2 or 3 to get an additional "bump" in image quality without visible artifacts of any kind (higher settings DO cause artifacts to appear). Also let the Radiance do all conversions from lower res (SD or 720) to 1080 res. I don't believe the eeColor box supports 2160p yet (unless I missed it). I forget if it supports 3D or not (been a while since I used one). So you may need the Radiance connected to the display via 2 different inputs so you can use the Radiance for 3D and 2160p if you need either or both capabilities.

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post #71 of 75 Old 05-02-2014, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I don't believe the eeColor box supports 2160p yet (unless I missed it). I forget if it supports 3D or not (been a while since I used one).

To clear out the things about specs, I have created a spec comparison table with the complete list of the 3D LUT Boxes / Video Processors that are currently available at pro industry/consumer market.

The following comparison screens shows only the device features that are useful or can be used for HT use only.



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post #72 of 75 Old 05-02-2014, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I don't believe the eeColor box supports 2160p yet (unless I missed it).

max resolution is 1080p in 10-bit (with a 3D LUT active)... there's no plans for a 4K box as there is barely any 4K content available... ee does have the tech already though....

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post #73 of 75 Old 05-02-2014, 12:55 AM
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Waiting for 4K content isn't a good excuse with the availability of 4K displays and the new Lumagen Radiance processors that convert 1080p to 2160p making HD images look better in the bargain. 2160p done RIGHT makes better images from TV or Blu-ray. Having seen native 2160p content in my system with some regularity, I'd give 1080p WELL converted to 2160p about 40-50% of the improvement you'd see between 1080 and 2160 versions of the same content. For now, that is satisfying enough of an image quality improvement for people interested in the best possible images to migrate to sending high-quality.

And there are disc players that convert to 2160p also, though demonstrably not as well as the new Radiance Processors so there are people flying 2160p through their systems now while they attempt to get better and better images in their homes even without 2160p content -- Sony is selling 2160p movies delivered via downloads. To stay on the leading edge, companies need to be supporting 2160p now because it is useful for making HD images look better even if 2160p content is sparse. People willing to spend money on 2160p hardware are going to be the same people interested in leading edge peripherals to support their endeavors to get better-looking images.

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post #74 of 75 Old 05-02-2014, 12:57 AM
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For 1080p Output 3D LUT Box / Video Processors Users who want UHD 2160p scalling, there some very interesting and low-cost accessories from Seiki.

Scott Wilkinson (AVS Forum Editor) has posted some first impressions about Seiki demonstration at another AVSForum thread here.

Here is the Seiki accesories comparison I have designed also:


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #75 of 75 Old 05-02-2014, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Waiting for 4K content isn't a good excuse with the availability of 4K displays and the new Lumagen Radiance processors that convert 1080p to 2160p making HD images look better in the bargain. 2160p done RIGHT makes better images from TV or Blu-ray. Having seen native 2160p content in my system with some regularity, I'd give 1080p WELL converted to 2160p about 40-50% of the improvement you'd see between 1080 and 2160 versions of the same content. For now, that is satisfying enough of an image quality improvement for people interested in the best possible images to migrate to sending high-quality.

And there are disc players that convert to 2160p also, though demonstrably not as well as the new Radiance Processors so there are people flying 2160p through their systems now while they attempt to get better and better images in their homes even without 2160p content -- Sony is selling 2160p movies delivered via downloads. To stay on the leading edge, companies need to be supporting 2160p now because it is useful for making HD images look better even if 2160p content is sparse. People willing to spend money on 2160p hardware are going to be the same people interested in leading edge peripherals to support their endeavors to get better-looking images.

well Doug, I've been telling them to do the box ! Nothing more I can do !!!! Unless you want to be the investor... ? wink.gif

The real point is that the Pro market has been needing an affordable 4K box forever, the industry has been shooting beyond 4K and finishing in 4K for a while now....

end consumer ain't there yet, I want mastered 4K content on disc medium (non-download, non-streamed, non-upscaled, non-over-the-air) with a full blown dedicated 4K calibration on a GOOD 4K TV set w/ HDMI 2.0 etc, the (few) good ones available are still too expensive...

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