Help with 'more color detail' settings on panasonic ST60 plasma? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 07-01-2014, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Help with 'more color detail' settings on panasonic ST60 plasma?

I'm trying to finish up a calibration on a Panasonic ST60 plasma and I'm not sure where these color detail setting adjustments come in to play during calibration. I have the WB, tint, color, skin tones, all spot on chat wise and visually, but am not familiar with those extra settings and the reason I ask is because while everything else looks good in the charts, the blues have a purple hue to them and I'm not sure where in the calibration process that this can be fixed without making everything overly red.

Objects that are supposed to be blue look more purple than blue (think the blue skin in avatar movie or the blue fluorescent mouth glow of the Pacific rim movie creatures - all purple tinged.) How do I get blues to be blue and not purple and still keep the other calibration results? Is it the blue hue settings in the 'more color detail' setting or what other colors am I adjusting to get the purple out?

I'm using calman and a one eye display 2 colorimeter.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
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post #2 of 51 Old 07-01-2014, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
I'm trying to finish up a calibration on a Panasonic ST60 plasma and I'm not sure where these color detail setting adjustments come in to play during calibration. I have the WB, tint, color, skin tones, all spot on chat wise and visually, but am not familiar with those extra settings and the reason I ask is because while everything else looks good in the charts, the blues have a purple hue to them and I'm not sure where in the calibration process that this can be fixed without making everything overly red.

Objects that are supposed to be blue look more purple than blue (think the blue skin in avatar movie or the blue fluorescent mouth glow of the Pacific rim movie creatures - all purple tinged.) How do I get blues to be blue and not purple and still keep the other calibration results? Is it the blue hue settings in the 'more color detail' setting or what other colors am I adjusting to get the purple out?

I'm using calman and a one eye display 2 colorimeter.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
Post your settings in the ST60 thread, and I'm sure someone will help you out, I got a GT50 so settings are a bit different.

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post #3 of 51 Old 07-01-2014, 12:05 PM
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Eye1disp 2 tend to drift quite a lot so before doing anymore "advanced" adjustments I suggest either to get a d3 or even better to profile against a spectro on your particular set.
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post #4 of 51 Old 07-01-2014, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
Eye1disp 2 tend to drift quite a lot so before doing anymore "advanced" adjustments I suggest either to get a d3 or even better to profile against a spectro on your particular set.
Yeah it definitely drifts a bit but its not bad enough to where the calibration isn't do-able.
Basically I'm trying to get the secondaries under error as the primaries look great but the only way to do it is to tweak the heck out of the blues and that's what got the blues looking purple. So yeah, it doesn't make sense and just want to get the secondaries under error and I'm trying to figure out how.

Do you think it's advisable to reset the color detail to its defaults (zero)?
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post #5 of 51 Old 07-04-2014, 08:45 PM
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Last resort: Make sure the primaries luminance are correct and the secondaries hue/tint is correct.

I assume you know how to operate the CMS.
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post #6 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ZKACAL View Post
Last resort: Make sure the primaries luminance are correct and the secondaries hue/tint is correct.

I assume you know how to operate the CMS.
Yes, for the most part I have a pretty good feel of the CMS.

I don't have a full blown CMS in my TV but it pretty much everything else except being able to calibrate the secondaries.
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post #7 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Yeah it definitely drifts a bit but its not bad enough to where the calibration isn't do-able.
Basically I'm trying to get the secondaries under error as the primaries look great but the only way to do it is to tweak the heck out of the blues and that's what got the blues looking purple. So yeah, it doesn't make sense and just want to get the secondaries under error and I'm trying to figure out how.

Do you think it's advisable to reset the color detail to its defaults (zero)?

I had that meter without a profile off a spectro you are shooting in the dark, you really have no idea whether your calibration is accurate. The secondaries should all fall in place if the primaries are calibrated correctly.

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post #8 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I had that meter without a profile off a spectro you are shooting in the dark, you really have no idea whether your calibration is accurate. The secondaries should all fall in place if the primaries are calibrated correctly.
Yes that's true, I'm not digging the meter much for this type of calibration. I did work on the TV more but I'm still stuck on how the color detail settings should work, I'm confused on where they come into play inside the calibration, but I'm assuming it's when it's time to tweak the CMS.

It's a hue, saturation, and luminance tweak for each primary color.
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post #9 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 03:32 PM
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Delta h is hue délta c is saturation delta l is luminance adjust the controls to get all three as low as possible . Should be able to get all under 2 de.

Last edited by chunon; 07-05-2014 at 03:41 PM.
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post #10 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Delta h is hue délta c is saturation delta l is luminance adjust the controls to get all three as low as possible . Should be able to get all under 2 de.
Ok, that's what I suspected. Just needed clarification.

For an example, my blue is almost 0 in deltaC, under 2 in deltaL but around 6 on deltaH - I assume adjustment of teh hue in the blue is necessary? I'm confused which way to swing it as either way will give the same results. They will get me under error but which way was the right one?

Also, magenta in deltaC is around 12 or so, what am I adjusting to get that down?

Here is a pic of my calibration, for reference. Notice anything that would need a major change? Other than magenta, blue, and green luminance...
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File Type: jpg Calman final.JPG (344.8 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by dunan; 07-05-2014 at 05:27 PM.
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post #11 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 05:27 PM
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No prob . I used to think there was some trick to cms but it is pretty straight forward
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post #12 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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No prob . I used to think there was some trick to cms but it is pretty straight forward
Had to edit my post
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post #13 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 05:55 PM
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You should be able to get closer than that. What size patterns are you using ?
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post #14 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You should be able to get closer than that. What size patterns are you using ?
75% if that's what you mean, from the AVS709 disk.

And I think so too, hence how to get the color detail settings working
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post #15 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 06:28 PM
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I never cal'd one.
from reading the grey scale is tricky and when set right the colors fall in line?
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post #16 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Ok, that's what I suspected. Just needed clarification.

For an example, my blue is almost 0 in deltaC, under 2 in deltaL but around 6 on deltaH - I assume adjustment of teh hue in the blue is necessary? I'm confused which way to swing it as either way will give the same results. They will get me under error but which way was the right one?

Also, magenta in deltaC is around 12 or so, what am I adjusting to get that down?

Here is a pic of my calibration, for reference. Notice anything that would need a major change? Other than magenta, blue, and green luminance...
The answers to your questions are right in-front of you, in the picture you posted.

I see you are using a older version of CM, and that is probable why you are not using auto cal.

You need to start over, put all your settings back to default. Turn off all enhancements, set your gamma in your st60 to 2.4, color temp to red 1 or 2

1st using a contrast pattern showing when you st60 starts to clip ( about 102%) using your contrast control in your st60. Also note the color of that contrast pattern, the bars should all be gray.

2nd use the two point grayscale screen in CM to adjust your 30% and 100% point using the internal controls of your st60. Use your High and Low Red and Blue adjustments, don't over adjust if you find yourself over adjusting start over.

Once you get the above correct run a test on your Gamut and see were those points are comparing to the chart you posted.

As for window size 11% down to 5% non apl should be fine.

The disc you are using has the 11% window.

ss
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post #17 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 06:41 PM
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The st60 does not support autocal
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post #18 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
The answers to your questions are right in-front of you, in the picture you posted.

I see you are using a older version of CM, and that is probable why you are not using auto cal.

You need to start over, put all your settings back to default. Turn off all enhancements, set your gamma in your st60 to 2.4, color temp to red 1 or 2

1st using a contrast pattern showing when you st60 starts to clip ( about 102%) using your contrast control in your st60. Also note the color of that contrast pattern, the bars should all be gray.

2nd use the two point grayscale screen in CM to adjust your 30% and 100% point using the internal controls of your st60. Use your High and Low Red and Blue adjustments, don't over adjust if you find yourself over adjusting start over.

Once you get the above correct run a test on your Gamut and see were those points are comparing to the chart you posted.

As for window size 11% down to 5% non apl should be fine.

The disc you are using has the 11% window.

ss
Unfortunately my TV doesn't have an auto cal capability, that is on the VT series and above I believe.

I feel like I got it almost there, is there a reason to start completely over if all that needs to be adjusted is a few settings or is it not that easy?
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post #19 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Unfortunately my TV doesn't have an auto cal capability, that is on the VT series and above I believe.

I feel like I got it almost there, is there a reason to start completely over if all that needs to be adjusted is a few settings or is it not that easy?
Yes the reason is you are not even close to what your display can do.

If you just do what I suggested above. I think your Gamut (CMS) will have better specs than what you are showing in the chart you posted, without making even one adjustment to your Gamut.

When I first started to calibrate, my first tries looked like yours.

And yes you can use AutoCal, you just need a external processor like eecolor box, or if you want to setup a home HTPC go to this link MadVR - ArgyllCMS
Learning and using this "Free" software will get you a better calibration than most "Pro" calibrators will.

ss
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post #20 of 51 Old 07-05-2014, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Yes the reason is you are not even close to what your display can do.

If you just do what I suggested above. I think your Gamut (CMS) will have better specs than what you are showing in the chart you posted, without making even one adjustment to your Gamut.

When I first started to calibrate, my first tries looked like yours.

And yes you can use AutoCal, you just need a external processor like eecolor box, or if you want to setup a home HTPC go to this link MadVR - ArgyllCMS
Learning and using this "Free" software will get you a better calibration than most "Pro" calibrators will.

ss
Have you calibrated this set before? This my first time calibrating a plasma, and unfortunately I don't have access to that kind of equipment, or the money, and am not really interested in setting up an HTPC.
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post #21 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Have you calibrated this set before? This my first time calibrating a plasma, and unfortunately I don't have access to that kind of equipment, or the money, and am not really interested in setting up an HTPC.
Not a st60, but my VT60 I calibrate.

Below is a screen shoot of a standard type (6 point CMS) calibration I did on my VT50. Look at the numbers for x,y,Y and the target numbers for the same. You will see how closely they match up. You can click on the last link in my sig to see the complete report done with CM.

Now look at your Y reading for 100% white and the target for 100% white, there is a very large difference. Once you set your 100% white point in your grayscale you shouldn't change it.

Remember Hue is basically for your secondary's and Saturation is basically for your primary's. Although you can use Hue for primary's and Saturation for secondary's, but normally not. Also when moving your primary's they move in and out, secondary's move side to side. When you move one of these points you must adjust the other two accordingly.
As I keep saying its all right in-front you, CM takes you step by step.

If you want help on how to calibrate your st60, then I suggest you start with the basics. Or if you are not interested to learn how to calibrate I would suggest using D-Nice's settings for your ST60.

ss
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Last edited by sillysally; 07-06-2014 at 03:53 AM.
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post #22 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Have you calibrated this set before? This my first time calibrating a plasma, and unfortunately I don't have access to that kind of equipment, or the money, and am not really interested in setting up an HTPC.

You don't need any of that extra equipment, you would be better off upgrading you meter if you have the funds. The ST60 calibrates very well just with the internal controls you have. What version of the Calman software do you have ?

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post #23 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You don't need any of that extra equipment, you would be better off upgrading you meter if you have the funds. The ST60 calibrates very well just with the internal controls you have. What version of the Calman software do you have ?
As I said to the OP, its all right in front of you. Look at his posted chart, he is using CM V4. And for what he is doing that should work well.

Can you post some charts, numbers to verify your claim. ???
Have you ever seen what a properly done 3DLUT can do for a display???
If you want simply D/L the calibration report I posted here and compare with a equally comprehensive report on your VT60 that Chad did . What is BT.1886 gamma?

As I recall you where not happy with the calibration that Chad B did on your ST60, so you ended up buying a VT60.

Matter of fact you did buy some nice calibration software and hardware, but gave up on DIY and hired Chad B to calibrate your TV's.

Please understand I am not trying to make fun of you or anybody trying to become a DYI. I had the same problem's we all have when we started out as a DIY. Matter of fact I have been learning how to use a outstanding calibration software for 3DLUT's. Look at some of my newbie questions I asked in the ArgyII threads, that may bring a smile to your face. But I was determined to learn how to use ArgyII and if you look at my latest measurement report I think I am getting close to my goal.

ss
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post #24 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Not a st60, but my VT60 I calibrate.

Below is a screen shoot of a standard type (6 point CMS) calibration I did on my VT50. Look at the numbers for x,y,Y and the target numbers for the same. You will see how closely they match up. You can click on the last link in my sig to see the complete report done with CM.

Now look at your Y reading for 100% white and the target for 100% white, there is a very large difference. Once you set your 100% white point in your grayscale you shouldn't change it.

Remember Hue is basically for your secondary's and Saturation is basically for your primary's. Although you can use Hue for primary's and Saturation for secondary's, but normally not. Also when moving your primary's they move in and out, secondary's move side to side. When you move one of these points you must adjust the other two accordingly.
As I keep saying its all right in-front you, CM takes you step by step.

If you want help on how to calibrate your st60, then I suggest you start with the basics. Or if you are not interested to learn how to calibrate I would suggest using D-Nice's settings for your ST60.

ss

Excellent information, thanks.
I was using DNice's settings but I kept getting a red hue in every black scene, so I ran those settings into calman and saw that it was really strong in the red and I wanted to change it and that's where I am now - still tweaking those settings

What do you mean that once I set the 100% white point I shouldn't change it? You mean I'm off where it says 20.4 is the target and 38.9 is the result?
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post #25 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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You don't need any of that extra equipment, you would be better off upgrading you meter if you have the funds. The ST60 calibrates very well just with the internal controls you have. What version of the Calman software do you have ?
its v.4.3
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post #26 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 05:49 PM
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The only point of clarification I'll make is that I have never been dissatisfied with chads work never ! To the op I would follow Sally's calibration advice. I still say a meter upgrade would be my priority .
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post #27 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Excellent information, thanks.
I was using DNice's settings but I kept getting a red hue in every black scene, so I ran those settings into calman and saw that it was really strong in the red and I wanted to change it and that's where I am now - still tweaking those settings

What do you mean that once I set the 100% white point I shouldn't change it? You mean I'm off where it says 20.4 is the target and 38.9 is the result?
The red hue is probably more to do with your grayscale than CMS. I use to see that all the time when I used a I1Pro meter and even a D6 (same as the D3 meter) profiled by the I1Pro. What I ended up doing is using my meter to get close and then eye balling the 10%, 20% and 30% window patterns to make them gray but keeping a eye on the Y reading when I would take a reading using CM and my meter.
Are panny 60 series all have great black level, so it is hard for color meters or spectros to read those low dark (10 to 30%) readings. I now use a K10 color meter so I don't have to eye ball anymore, but the K10 meters have a obscene price tag so learn how to eye ball.

Yes I meant "20.4 is the target and 38.9 is the result" those two readings should match or be very close. When you use AVSHD (I used the same when I started) make sure you use the 100% window that is used for your grayscale not the 75% windows you are using for your RGBCMY (CMS) and 75% White readings.

ss
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post #28 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
The only point of clarification I'll make is that I have never been dissatisfied with chads work never ! To the op I would follow Sally's calibration advice. I still say a meter upgrade would be my priority .
imo, the only mistake you have made is not to keep learning how to calibrate.

With your passion for this hobby, you would have become as good as anybody including Chad B.

btw, I would say the same thing about you when you help folks on the panny 60 series threads.

ss
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post #29 of 51 Old 07-06-2014, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
The red hue is probably more to do with your grayscale than CMS. I use to see that all the time when I used a I1Pro meter and even a D6 (same as the D3 meter) profiled by the I1Pro. What I ended up doing is using my meter to get close and then eye balling the 10%, 20% and 30% window patterns to make them gray but keeping a eye on the Y reading when I would take a reading using CM and my meter.
Are panny 60 series all have great black level, so it is hard for color meters or spectros to read those low dark (10 to 30%) readings. I now use a K10 color meter so I don't have to eye ball anymore, but the K10 meters have a obscene price tag so learn how to eye ball.

Yes I meant "20.4 is the target and 38.9 is the result" those two readings should match or be very close. When you use AVSHD (I used the same when I started) make sure you use the 100% window that is used for your grayscale not the 75% windows you are using for your RGBCMY (CMS) and 75% White readings.

ss

That's the thing, I dont know how i'm missing the target to be honest...that's what i'm using the 100% white, I have it set to prompt for the next color every time I run the color or greyscale chart. Is it not matching up because of the greyscale?

I think a new meter is in the plans.
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post #30 of 51 Old 07-07-2014, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
That's the thing, I dont know how i'm missing the target to be honest...that's what i'm using the 100% white, I have it set to prompt for the next color every time I run the color or greyscale chart. Is it not matching up because of the greyscale?

I think a new meter is in the plans.
Try this using your 100% white in your grayscale, take 4 or 5 reading. Then compare the reading, if all 4 or 5 readings are close do the same for your 30% thru 90% and compare those readings. If each of the 4 or 5 readings per patch are close your meter is probably ok.

I don't know what meter you have, but if its a D3 you should be fine.

I didn't recommend a new meter because it sounded like you didn't want to spend any more money.

I think others have reported a slight red tint in the low end of the grayscale, but not nearly as bad as you see.

Anyway if your meter checks out for reputability, then start over using the default settings of your ST60. First input all of D-Nice's night settings (including the Gamma probably 2.4 setting), except for the CMS adjustments and grayscale. Now go to the two point grayscale and first take the reading on the 100% white and 30%, follow CM instructions on how to do this. Then move on as CM instructs step by step.
Once you start understanding what adjustments you make and how they affect other adjustments you will become a good DYI, but it all takes time. As long as you understand getting a good calibration is not going to happen over night and probably will take a lot of practice and reading in CM's how to guide along with asking questions you will succeed.

ss

Last edited by sillysally; 07-07-2014 at 01:14 AM.
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