Vizio Smooth Motion Effect- E Series Question - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Vizio Smooth Motion Effect- E Series Question

I was looking at the 2014 Vizio E500i-B1 and for Vizio TVs, the SOE is called Smooth Motion Effect.

I was wondering... does this TV allow me to switch it off? If not, how many ms (for those who know) is the input lag? I honestly don't want to turn game mode on if I end up buying this TV. I heard from many sources that game mode--when turned on--ruins the picture. On my Hisense TV I played video games with the SOE on, and I didn't notice any "major" lag.

I have my eyes fixed on this TV because I've seen good reviews regarding the PQ, I like 50" TVs, and I am on a budget. Not that I can't purchase a more expensive brand, but all that money spent on a high end brand could have been used for something else. Plus, it's for my bedroom, and my room is big enough for a 50".

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post #2 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 11:47 AM
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Have you downloaded the manual to find your answer?
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post #3 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I looked at the PDF, and nothing about the Smooth Motion Effect is mentioned.
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post #4 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 08:56 PM
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For home TV gaming, just make sure you buy something that has no more than 40 ms input lag. Anything more starts to become noticeable. MLG players on the other hand only play on 1-2 ms monitors.

I would also avoid Gaming Mode and choose Movie Mode instead because it more accurate in terms of calibration.

As far as the Smooth Motion Effect (Frame Interpolation)... There should always be an off option. All sorts of external processing should be able to be turned off nowadays. Having SOE on will increase input lag.
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post #5 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, on some TV's you can't turn it off. I turn off the effect because all it does is create fake frames between the real frames, and that can cause PQ issues like flickering. This is why I am hoping that this TV's native "Refresh Rate" is 60Hz.
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post #6 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 09:47 PM
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As long as it's not a European model, you should be okay I think.

Reason I say that is because Xbox One released an update for Europeans to select a 50 Hz refresh rate because that is their native rate.

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post #7 of 17 Old 07-04-2014, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, since I live in the States, no matter how--and where I buy this TV, it's going to be a US copy. I might just buy it online at bestbuy.com and use the site to store method.
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post #8 of 17 Old 07-06-2014, 11:26 AM
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I've personally never seen a TV or projector where frame interpolation could not be turned off... that doesn't mean they don't exist. I've just never seen one that wasn't defeatable. Typically, the options are off, low, medium, and high. Inexpensive TVs may lack some or all of those options and is also likely to have so much input lag that nobody would be particularly happy with lower cost TV models for gaming where reaction times are challenged with any regularity. Faster video processing reduces input lag but lower-than-top-of-the-line TVs will also use slower (and cheaper) video processing components. So input lag on inexpensive TVs is likely to be unacceptable to gamers who are sensitive to it.


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Originally Posted by mefan101 View Post
Well, on some TV's you can't turn it off. I turn off the effect because all it does is create fake frames between the real frames, and that can cause PQ issues like flickering. This is why I am hoping that this TV's native "Refresh Rate" is 60Hz.

I don't think it is fair to characterize the interpolated frames as "fake". In fact, if a higher frame rate had been used to capture the film or video in the first place, the motion would look EXTREMELY similar to the interpolated frames. The only time you would get motion errors was if the motion on the screen did something very unpredictable... like begin in one direction, then reverse suddenly or make a sudden 90 degree turn or something like that. This doesn't happen too often. In fact, the interpolated frames make information in the original frames look sharper than the original frames themselves. This is done by some very clever image analysis that requires multiple frames. The more frames the TV or processor uses before and after the interpolated frame, the more difficult it is for the frame interpolation logic to be fooled. For example, if the TV only uses the previous and next frames to analyze... sudden changes in direction can "fool" the interpolation into making a slightly inappropriate frame. But if the interpolation logic looks back 3 frames and forward 3 frames, it is very difficult to "fool" the frame interpolation logic. I've experienced TVs and projectors where over 100s of hours of viewing with frame interpolation enabled never once caused a detectable motion anomaly. On the other hand, I've also experienced TVs and projectors that could barely go 10 minutes without some kind of visible frame interpolation error. When frame interpolation first appeared, it was pretty easy to find TVs or projectors that didn't do it all that well. Now that we have a few years of frame interpolation experience, more often than not, frame interpolation works very well... with the exception of lower-cost TVs and projectors where older and cheaper parts may be used in the processing path.

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post #9 of 17 Old 07-07-2014, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Well then I'll just buy a different TV. One that has a smaller screen, a better picture quality, and a lower input lag. I believe the Sony KDL40W600B is a perfect candidate. It has everything I need: More picture settings, more HDMI inputs, and the size is a more confortable size.
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post #10 of 17 Old 07-09-2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn
I've personally never seen a TV or projector where frame interpolation could not be turned off... that doesn't mean they don't exist. I've just never seen one that wasn't defeatable. Typically, the options are off, low, medium, and high.
On my Sony LCd Film Mode 1 does some motion smoothing and MotionFlow low, medium, and high does some motion smoothing, When using these options motion smoothing becomes noticeable. So frame interpolation is not by definition limited to the Motionflow, SmoothMotion, TruMotion etc.. option on the TV.
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post #11 of 17 Old 07-10-2014, 06:50 AM
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Since this is only doing the leg work for researching your next display purchase; I'll give you my opinion. I looked up the manuals for both of the displays you have defined. Although Vizio has come a long way, I would suggest the Sony. They never seem to have a CMS within the display but once calibrated the image is excellent. The Sony is a far better engineered. This is my personal opinion and when it comes down to it everyone will have a personal preference but the final choice is yours. Do your own research and make your own choice. If you do not have the experience or the equipment get the display calibrated.
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post #12 of 17 Old 07-10-2014, 09:30 PM
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I agree with what Randal said but if you still want a Vizeo go with:

http://www.cnet.com/products/vizio-e500i-a1/

Only 32 ms input lag for a 50 inch screen and fairly cheap price.
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post #13 of 17 Old 07-12-2014, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I stick with the 40 Inch Sony TV.
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post #14 of 17 Old 07-13-2014, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
I don't think it is fair to characterize the interpolated frames as "fake". In fact, if a higher frame rate had been used to capture the film or video in the first place, the motion would look EXTREMELY similar to the interpolated frames. The only time you would get motion errors was if the motion on the screen did something very unpredictable... like begin in one direction, then reverse suddenly or make a sudden 90 degree turn or something like that. This doesn't happen too often.
You'd be surprised. It can happen, and sometimes the artifacts are subtle, sometimes not. I object to it for the simple reason that you wind up seeing a picture that the filmmakers (and/or showrunners) never intended for you to see. Additional processing like noise reduction, image enhancement, and motion interpolation inevitably winds up screwing with the picture too much for me.

In truth, it can be done if you use extremely sophisticated, non-real-time processing, supervised by very experienced technicians who approach the problem on a scene-by-scene (and sometimes a frame-by-frame) basis. But real-time ain't there yet, especially in a $1000 consumer set.

I would much rather have a "warts and all" honest picture that just tells me what the director and cinematographer looked at in the color timing room. No bells, no whistles, no muss, no fuss. I think the manufacturers are trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

This reminds me of what happened back in 1998, when George Lucas urged Sony to come up with a digital cinema camera for his motion pictures. When they showed him the prototype, he said, "wait a minute -- we need a 24fps mode." The Sony engineers insisted that 24fps was "an aberration," and the quality of 30fps was so much better and had fewer motion artifacts. George insisted (correctly) that 24fps was part and parcel with the look of movies, so Sony reluctantly changed. Too often, engineers only look at the technical issues and fail to take the artistic issues into account.
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post #15 of 17 Old 07-13-2014, 12:54 AM
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Lucas was as wrong about that as he was about Jar Jar Binks. 30 fps IS better than 24 fps. The "look" of film comes from severe limitations in technology and the desire to minimize the amount of film used back in the 1920s and 1930s. There is NO EXCUSE and NO REASON to be tied to 24 fps. In fact, 24 fps in 2014 is a technological aberration that should not exist. 24 fps wasn't chosen because it was good. It was chosen because it was believed, at the time, to be the slowest frame rate that wouldn't cause paying customers to go to fewer movies. Slow frame rates = money saved shooting films and duplicating films for distribution.


Low end TVs aren't going to get much right, but I wasn't talking about low end TVs specifically. The frame interpolation in GOOD current TVs will be the same frame interpolation you get in low-end TV models in 3 years or so. As I said in the initial post, newer and better TVs and projectors have significantly improved frame interpolation modes that look ahead and behind so they are not fooled by unusual changes in direction the way frame interpolation was a few years ago. On the fly frame interpolation is considerably easier (in better TVs and projectors) to implement and very very difficult to "fool" because of improvements in the processing chips and techniques. Nothing stays static in TV tech these days. If you're never going to have anything better than a $1000 TV, then the one you buy in 3 years will be as good as what I seen in good flat panels and projectors sold today. You don't like YOUR frame interpolation... fine. But you can't paint frame interpolation as being screwed up or "fake" just because your TV doesn't do it well. Three years ago, the flat panels and projectors with frame interpolation were not as good, as a group, as they are today.


And just for the record, 30 fps is considerably better than 24 fps in so many ways... Sony was right. But today, 30 fps is too slow. 60 fps or more should be the standard for movies. We may get 48 fps as an interim speed for some releases, but long-term, we need to be at 60 fps or higher. 120 fps would be great for 2D and 3D. Higher frame rates, though, mean higher frame capture rates in digital cameras... that's the battle being fought now... making digital cameras that can capture images at 60 fps or faster in a wide range of lighting with, obviously, dark scenes being the most challenging because of the limited amount of light that can be captured in 1/60th of a second or less.


There is nothing noble about trying to hang on to 24 fps. I mean REALLY... if movies were automobiles... 24 fps is equivalent to 1932 model year cars. Should we all be driving 1932 auto designs just because that's the way cars were in 1932? I mean, 1932 cars are amusing to drive, look great, have lots of personality, but as a daily driver? No thank you. I'll take modern cars any day. Why should film be tied to an obsolete "ideal" that was NEVER ideal... it was simply the WORST that the public would tolerate and still pay money to see every week.

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Last edited by Doug Blackburn; 07-13-2014 at 12:59 AM.
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post #16 of 17 Old 07-13-2014, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
Lucas was as wrong about that as he was about Jar Jar Binks. 30 fps IS better than 24 fps. The "look" of film comes from severe limitations in technology and the desire to minimize the amount of film used back in the 1920s and 1930s. There is NO EXCUSE and NO REASON to be tied to 24 fps.
Speaking as a guy who's worked in film for more than 30 years, I would disagree. I think the very unreality of 24fps is one of the things that psychologically gives it an emotional feeling. I'm generally opposed to higher frame rates for scripted entertainment for the simple reason that it takes me out of the experience and calls too much attention to itself.

Sometimes, the flaws are what make it interesting. I think you have to step back and realize that there's more to what makes up an image than just how it measures or what the technical specs are. When we do color-correction in the mastering room, I don't necessarily speak of "warm" or "blue" or bright; we talk about what the emotion of the scene is. Is it sad? Is it poignant? Is it frightening? That's what sets the tone for the experience -- not points on a scope or pixels on a vectorscope.

24 frames is part of that. I have no problem for 30fps and higher frame rates for certain kinds of entertainment, particularly live TV, documentaries, theme park rides, and things like that. But for regular movies, I think it calls too much attention to itself. I think we've been ingrained for more than 90 years to understand that 24fps images are a fantasy world, and it works for communicating those kinds of stories.

I'd draw a parallel to high shutter speeds, like the 90-degree or 45-degree shutter used in Saving Private Ryan and similar action sequences. Initially, this kind of hyper-sharp look was electric, grabbed our attention, and looked very cool; now, it's used in every cheap TV show to the point where you go, "ah, high-speed shutter. Now the show will get exciting." It's become a total cliche.

Does the clarity of the image make those shots better? Not to me. Sometimes, it winds up merely as different... not better. And I don't think the motion-compensation circuits in TV sets help.
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post #17 of 17 Old 07-16-2014, 09:44 AM
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same to me, live in the States, no matter how--and where I buy this TV, it's going to be a US copy. I might just buy it online at bestbuy.com and use the site to store method.[IMG]http://*******/WNKpGN[/IMG]
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