Great Gray Scale, but B&W still looks a little "pink" - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Great Gray Scale, but B&W still looks a little "pink"

I've gone through the 10 point gray scale calibration on my Samsung F5300 several times and it now measures very close to perfect (Delta E <1 at all levels).

However, when I watch any black and white content (at least from from ATT U-Verse) the picture still has a slight "pink look" to it. This occurs on programming from both METV and Turner Classic Movies HD.

It seems worse on shows that were produced in the pre-1960's era( Rifleman, Leave it to Beaver, old Mickey Rooney movies, etc). When a "modern" black and white commercial seems to have considerably less tint, if any.

Is this normal? Is the "new" black and white somehow different from the "old" black and white from yesteryear?

(I've ordered a Blu Ray of Sin City to see how it compares but it won't be here for a few days).
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post #2 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRiff View Post
I've gone through the 10 point gray scale calibration on my Samsung F5300 several times and it now measures very close to perfect (Delta E <1 at all levels).

However, when I watch any black and white content (at least from from ATT U-Verse) the picture still has a slight "pink look" to it. This occurs on programming from both METV and Turner Classic Movies HD.

It seems worse on shows that were produced in the pre-1960's era( Rifleman, Leave it to Beaver, old Mickey Rooney movies, etc). When a "modern" black and white commercial seems to have considerably less tint, if any.

Is this normal? Is the "new" black and white somehow different from the "old" black and white from yesteryear?

(I've ordered a Blu Ray of Sin City to see how it compares but it won't be here for a few days).
It's really tough to speak to what broadcasters and re-broadcasters (such as ATT U-Verse) might be doing with the signal. True black and white (and grayscale test patterns) should not include color info, but sometimes that may be accidentally or even deliberately added. If you can't see the tint in the test patterns you used, I'd just chalk it up to the source and live with it.

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post #3 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 12:01 PM
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that is surprising.
I see tinges of green, especially on Alfred Hithcock shows.
I see it on all the TVs, even CRT.

For the most part the grays are neutral.

When coming in from outside bright daylight, for an instant there is a blue cast.

What is your meter selection?
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post #4 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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that is surprising.
I see tinges of green, especially on Alfred Hithcock shows.
I see it on all the TVs, even CRT.

For the most part the grays are neutral.

When coming in from outside bright daylight, for an instant there is a blue cast.

What is your meter selection?
I have a Spectracal C3 colorimeter (one month old) and am using CalMan 5 software.

Looking forward to receiving my Sin City DVD so I can (hopefully) put the issue to rest.

(I can live with "garbage in = garbage out").
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post #5 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BobRiff View Post
I have a Spectracal C3 colorimeter (one month old) and am using CalMan 5 software.

Looking forward to receiving my Sin City DVD so I can (hopefully) put the issue to rest.

(I can live with "garbage in = garbage out").
what about patterns and the device to display them?
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post #6 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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what about patterns and the device to display them?
I've used various pattern discs: AVS HD709, Ted's Lightspace and Get Gray to do the calibrations. The TV is a Samsung 60F5300 plasma (two months old).

I've been using Get Gray for the most recent calibration sessions as I find it much easier to use than the other two (way fewer menus and patterns to wade through to get to the patterns you want).


The set has absolutely GREAT color performance, but the black and white issue is not what I expected. I can live with it, but it just doesn't seem quite right and I'd like to figure out what's going on.
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post #7 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 12:40 PM
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A good test would be to measure (both with an instrument and your eyes) all 200+ video levels of the grayscale, just to ensure there aren't any stray apples. Unlikely, but might be useful to rule out.
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post #8 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 12:44 PM
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TCM is notorious for broadcasting pink tinted B/W. Turn the Color control to zero and the tint will disappear.

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post #9 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 01:01 PM
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TCM is notorious for broadcasting pink tinted B/W. Turn the Color control to zero and the tint will disappear.

Larry
I watch a lot of TCM. never seen pink.
Charter cable service.
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post #10 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 01:07 PM
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I watch a lot of TCM. never seen pink.
Charter cable service.

I too watch TCM a lot. When I had Cox as a source, I did not see the tint. Directv has it -- and it is on both my VT60 plasmas. So maybe it is due to the last chain in the transmission link that causes it. But no matter, the Color control gets rid of the tint.

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post #11 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 01:11 PM
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I too watch TCM a lot. When I had Cox as a source, I did not see the tint. Directv has it -- and it is on both my VT60 plasmas. So maybe it is due to the last chain in the transmission link that causes it. But no matter, the Color control gets rid of the tint.

Larry
I believe you.
I have only had Charter.
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post #12 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 02:02 PM
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A number of factors can come into play.

The colour of your walls in the room will effect your colour balance on the screen.
The colour of room lighting, incandescents, halogens and LED's and natural daylight all have different spectrums and changes what you observe.
Your meter could be reading the source/display incorrectly
Your meter could be off in general, >1~3 dE from reference which would be enough to mis align the display.
Your source device(player) could be out by >1~3 dE as well

Key thing to keep in mind is that total error is cumulative, ie your source could be +/-1~2dE, the display is +/-1~2dE and meter +/-1~2dE which adds up to +/-6dE which is easily observable.

This is why the proffessional and keen enthusiasts buy reference spectro's and reference generators so as to limit the total error. However despite this there is ALWAYS error.

Despite reference spectros and generators a pro can still get colour casts from a display(for what ever reason), this is where one might have to fudge a little and build in calculated error based on what we observe as offensive casts for regions of greyscale.
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post #13 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 02:31 PM
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My bet is that the OP's red error is at least partially introduced by his broadcast-based sources, which is why I recommend that he put up a grayscale ramp and check it for any tinting. After all, NTSC used to be referred to as "Never The Same Color", and for good reason.

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post #14 of 19 Old 07-16-2014, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I went through the entire gray scale calibration again tonight.

As usual, it had changed some from my last run through (yesterday).

I tried a different tactic tonight. I started at 0% and worked my way up to 100%. However, instead of going all the way to zero to run through it a second time, I worked my way backwards from 100% down to zero.

I then ran through the entire thing once more without adjusting anything. I just looked at each reading to make sure it all still looked good.

Pink tint is still there, maybe a little better but still noticeable.

BTW, turning the color all the way down (or up) has no effect on the tint.

Cumulative errors from a "cheapo" Panasonic Blu Ray player and a low priced colorimeter could indeed be contributing to the problem.

I guess I'll know a lot more after I view Sin City in a few days.

Worse case: I'll have to learn to live with the issue. It's not a deal breaker, just a puzzler.
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post #15 of 19 Old 07-18-2014, 11:21 AM
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Just curious, Bob: are your Blu-Ray player and U-Verse on separate inputs on the TV? Your grayscale may need to be done independently for each input. If this is the case, then setting the gray scale on your Blu-Ray input won't affect the gray scale on the input(s) used by your U-verse and METV. You could write down all the settings from your calibrated input and enter them into the others.
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post #16 of 19 Old 07-18-2014, 11:34 AM
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How is the tinting distributed through the grayscale? Is it mainly at one end?
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post #17 of 19 Old 07-19-2014, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Just curious, Bob: are your Blu-Ray player and U-Verse on separate inputs on the TV? Your grayscale may need to be done independently for each input. If this is the case, then setting the gray scale on your Blu-Ray input won't affect the gray scale on the input(s) used by your U-verse and METV. You could write down all the settings from your calibrated input and enter them into the others.
I"m doing all of my calibrations using the HDMI-1 connection. (I unplug ATT and plug Blu Ray in).

If I ever decide I've got everything "perfect", I'll copy all of the setting over to HDMI-2. Until then, I'm making all my changes to one input.
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post #18 of 19 Old 07-19-2014, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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How is the tinting distributed through the grayscale? Is it mainly at one end?
Actually it seems worse at about 30-60% range (just guessing of course). Definitely not at the high or low end.

I watched Sin City last night and it was remarkably better than ATT, in fact it was almost perfect.

However there were still a few areas of certain scenes with a slight pink tint (Bruce Willis' car in the first scene was one).

Much to my wife's chagrin, I'm going to keep playing around trying to achieve "perfection" for a while yet.
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post #19 of 19 Old 07-19-2014, 01:46 PM
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Actually it seems worse at about 30-60% range (just guessing of course). Definitely not at the high or low end.

I watched Sin City last night and it was remarkably better than ATT, in fact it was almost perfect.

However there were still a few areas of certain scenes with a slight pink tint (Bruce Willis' car in the first scene was one).

Much to my wife's chagrin, I'm going to keep playing around trying to achieve "perfection" for a while yet.
On the Panasonic ST60, using the 2 point White Balance "Low" controls leads you to boost red, and then after getting the 10 point controls perfect, you have red-tinted blacks. The solution to that is not to use the 2 point "Low" controls. It's possible the 2 or 10 point controls are messing you up with your Samsung, so I would see how it goes using just one or the other.

I started with a C3, and I noticed a big difference when I upgraded to Calman 5.2. Compared to previous Calman versions, the red was steadily decreased as you go up the grayscale; that is, the red "line" on the grayscale chart had a constant negative slope, ending up down 7% at 100% white, IIRC. I asked about this, and they confirmed it was a purposeful change to make the C3 more accurate with plasmas, which I was happy to hear, because I liked the results better. The effect, however, was for me to boost red going up the grayscale, which is not your problem. I later bought an i1D3, and it measured red even lower than Calman 5.2 and the C3. I thought it improved the picture, too. Some time after that, I rented a ColorMunki Photo spectro, and it measured within +/- 2 dE of the i1D3. If you stick with the C3, it would be worth it to rent a spectro and profile the C3 on your set. My rental was $60 from LensRentals.com, and last I looked, SpectraCal was renting the superior i1Pro for $199. (If they dropped it to $100, I would have gone with them, hint, hint.) Your wife should really love this idea.

FWIW, the process that worked best for me on my ST60 was to use the high WB controls to get things in the ballpark, then in the 10 point controls, adjust the red and blue to match the green at each step, leaving the green at zero. Then I used the gamma controls to make it match BT.1886. Then I repeated the process to make final minor adjustments. Another thing that can have a big effect on the outcome is the patterns you use. I found small windows to work best for real material across all APLs and settled on 2%.
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