Set me straight on colorimeters - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-16-2014, 12:24 PM
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Have you personally compared the results to that using a jeti 1211 or equivalent on a plasma?
No.

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Old 08-16-2014, 12:39 PM
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Not PDP specific but for the money the i1Pro1 &2 are very good.

http://www.jeti.com/cms/images/jeti_...otes/an_19.pdf

Accuracy @ 10 cd/m2
Chromaticity
specbos 1211 ± 0.002
CS-200 ± 0.004
I1Pro ± 0.002
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Old 08-16-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Not PDP specific but for the money the i1Pro1 &2 are very good.

http://www.jeti.com/cms/images/jeti_...otes/an_19.pdf

Accuracy @ 10 cd/m2
Chromaticity
specbos 1211 ± 0.002
CS-200 ± 0.004
I1Pro ± 0.002
Buzzard,

If it was true for a plasma, I'd jump for joy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have found out different.

I still hang on to my i1pro2 in hopes that it'll work well on some future display tech.

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Old 08-16-2014, 03:15 PM
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Let's not discourage folks from doing DIY. Maybe the i1pro isnt reference but it is not junk either. Chad used an i1pro for calibrations a couple of years ago knowing him I find it hard to believe he used something that was not fit for a plasma . Buzz says the i1pro works fine on his plasmas I believe him.
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Old 08-16-2014, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Buzzard,

If it was true for a plasma, I'd jump for joy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have found out different.

I still hang on to my i1pro2 in hopes that it'll work well on some future display tech.
I have a pro 1 and munki photo.
very close together.
a plasma that is finicky.

is it the pro2 that is different?

I read that you had ChadB at your house.
did you guys get a chance to see what is up with the problems you had calibrating?

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Old 08-16-2014, 05:22 PM
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Well, now that we've pretty much thoroughly hijacked this thread, I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

I do this as a hobby so I make no money from it. I have an i1pro and a d3. I like the d3 because it's fast and has good low light sensitivity. I don't like the d3 because it's a colorimeter and 1) is not necessarily accurate for the particular spectral characteristics of a display technology if it doesn't have internal tables that match that technology, and 2) the pigments on a colorimeter's filters drift over time so it needs to be periodically recalibrated. I may be able to talk myself into spending the money for a colorimeter as a hobby but I'm not at all interested in sending it back every year for adjustment. That would be fine if I was in business but for a hobby not so much. I like the i1pro because it is a spectrometer and so does not need specific tables for individual display technologies. It also has a reputation for being accurate even after years of not being calibrated. You can send it in the Xrite and they'll send you a piece of paper telling you it's still accurate and soak you a few hundred dollars, but what they won't have to do is adjust anything. That's ideal for my concept of a hobby. The drawback of the i1pro is its lack of low level light sensitivity. It makes me cry that I can't calibrate 20% or below accurately with my i1pro.

So profiling my d3 off of my i1pro is the best of both worlds. When the d3 drifts the i1pro meter correction will adjust for it. No sending the d3 back to the shop. I also get reasonably accurate and fast readings down to 5% so I can't really ask for more. Is the i1pro the most accurate device for the job? Of course not. It didn't cost 5 times the price of my TV (or more) so I don't expect it to be. Is my picture excellent? I think so. Looks like real life to me (well, if the input material is up to snuff). So I'm happy and that's what matters.

There's a saying I think we need to keep in mind both while purchasing calibration equipment and while doing a calibration: "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Everything we work with, the measuring equipment, the display equipment, and the media being displayed is a compromise. Be happy with "good". It's better than anyone before us ever had.
Roy
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:45 PM
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Roy or someone else. Please do a grayscale measurement in 5% steps with d3 plus edr plasma (I suppose you have a plasma) and d3 profiled with the spectro. I'm very well aware that there are differences unit-to-unit but I'm just curious.
Also, maybe it is some sort of hijacking this thread but it is useful information about colorimeters in generally, pretty graphs and what some of us might think to have achieved with a budget solution. This meter is very appreciated but, myself as a user of it, for my eyes it seems to be a lot to improve in its accuracy.
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
Well, now that we've pretty much thoroughly hijacked this thread, I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

I do this as a hobby so I make no money from it. I have an i1pro and a d3. I like the d3 because it's fast and has good low light sensitivity. I don't like the d3 because it's a colorimeter and 1) is not necessarily accurate for the particular spectral characteristics of a display technology if it doesn't have internal tables that match that technology, and 2) the pigments on a colorimeter's filters drift over time so it needs to be periodically recalibrated. I may be able to talk myself into spending the money for a colorimeter as a hobby but I'm not at all interested in sending it back every year for adjustment. That would be fine if I was in business but for a hobby not so much. I like the i1pro because it is a spectrometer and so does not need specific tables for individual display technologies. It also has a reputation for being accurate even after years of not being calibrated. You can send it in the Xrite and they'll send you a piece of paper telling you it's still accurate and soak you a few hundred dollars, but what they won't have to do is adjust anything. That's ideal for my concept of a hobby. The drawback of the i1pro is its lack of low level light sensitivity. It makes me cry that I can't calibrate 20% or below accurately with my i1pro.

So profiling my d3 off of my i1pro is the best of both worlds. When the d3 drifts the i1pro meter correction will adjust for it. No sending the d3 back to the shop. I also get reasonably accurate and fast readings down to 5% so I can't really ask for more. Is the i1pro the most accurate device for the job? Of course not. It didn't cost 5 times the price of my TV (or more) so I don't expect it to be. Is my picture excellent? I think so. Looks like real life to me (well, if the input material is up to snuff). So I'm happy and that's what matters.

There's a saying I think we need to keep in mind both while purchasing calibration equipment and while doing a calibration: "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Everything we work with, the measuring equipment, the display equipment, and the media being displayed is a compromise. Be happy with "good". It's better than anyone before us ever had.
Roy
Very well said sir!
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:55 PM
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Very well said sir!
My point is that the Jeti is fantastic but the most important users are those in the post production industry.

For calibrating a home display, whether enthusiast or paid pro, the display is going to shift in time anyway. Some post houses calibrate weekly, just to be sure. The i1Pro does an adequate job, including on PDP if my eyes are seeing my reference images correctly. The display itself is important. Remember the red push in the VT30? A CS2000 could graph beautifully but the faces were red red RED until the Color control was turned down.

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Old 08-17-2014, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Buzzard,

If it was true for a plasma, I'd jump for joy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have found out different.

I still hang on to my i1pro2 in hopes that it'll work well on some future display tech.
Yes Jim you are correct. A I1Pro not not a Jeti 1211.

For a DYI'er the I1Pro and D3 is a good combo for a Plasma, but still its going to be flawed. For a Pro calibrator a Jeti 1211 and a K10-A would be my preference.

Generic meter matrix profiles are a help.

Using a color meter, spector meter and the display to make a custom meter matrix profile is better.

Best is to make a custom meter profile using software that lets you compare more than one profile, giving all the meter readings from the color meter and the spectro.
However if when making a custom meter profile, the spectro you are using is flawed then so will your color meter profile be flawed.

Simply saying that the patterns look correct to my eye, is not a very good approach and should only be used with very dark test patterns if your meter is not up to the task.

ss
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Old 08-17-2014, 05:25 AM
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The truth is out there

One of these days I am going to put a definitive end to this topic. I have profiled hundreds of D3s using a JETI 1201 on several different display devices. I have all of that data archived. When I get the time someday I will publish that data. I can say a few things now.

  • There is noticeable unit-to-unit variation. They do not all measure the same.
  • They are more accurate with some displays than with others. For example, they are quite accurate with UHP front projectors. They are less accurate with plasmas. The accuracy also varies not only with different display types--e.g. standard CCFL LCD vs. LED LCD--but it also varies between different manufacturers of the same display technology.
  • Having said this, in general they are fairly accurate without any correction. Typically, errors do not rise above xy0.006, but occasionally are as large as xy0.010. It is not uncommon with several display types to see negligible errors in the xy0.002-0.003 range. With some colors on some displays they are spot on--no error at all compared to a reference device (this is often true with blue).
  • I have no hard data to back this up right now, but my sense is that the retail meters are slightly more accurate than the OEM meters. This is counterintuitive, so when I finally get around to doing this study I'll look at this.
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Old 08-17-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
...snip...
I read that you had ChadB at your house.
did you guys get a chance to see what is up with the problems you had calibrating?
The problems weren't with calibrating but with the eecolor being recognized by the software/computer and outputting video levels. First problem solved by reloading windows 7 and still working on the second problem. Using my Accupel 5000 in the meanwhile as the gamma looks more correct when compared to computer video output.

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Old 08-17-2014, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
One of these days I am going to put a definitive end to this topic. I have profiled hundreds of D3s using a JETI 1201 on several different display devices. I have all of that data archived. When I get the time someday I will publish that data. I can say a few things now.

  • There is noticeable unit-to-unit variation. They do not all measure the same.
  • They are more accurate with some displays than with others. For example, they are quite accurate with UHP front projectors. They are less accurate with plasmas. The accuracy also varies not only with different display types--e.g. standard CCFL LCD vs. LED LCD--but it also varies between different manufacturers of the same display technology.
  • Having said this, in general they are fairly accurate without any correction. Typically, errors do not rise above xy0.006, but occasionally are as large as xy0.010. It is not uncommon with several display types to see negligible errors in the xy0.002-0.003 range. With some colors on some displays they are spot on--no error at all compared to a reference device (this is often true with blue).
  • I have no hard data to back this up right now, but my sense is that the retail meters are slightly more accurate than the OEM meters. This is counterintuitive, so when I finally get around to doing this study I'll look at this.

Would be very interesting to see that data

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Old 08-17-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
One of these days I am going to put a definitive end to this topic. I have profiled hundreds of D3s using a JETI 1201 on several different display devices. I have all of that data archived. When I get the time someday I will publish that data. I can say a few things now.

  • There is noticeable unit-to-unit variation. They do not all measure the same.
  • They are more accurate with some displays than with others. For example, they are quite accurate with UHP front projectors. They are less accurate with plasmas. The accuracy also varies not only with different display types--e.g. standard CCFL LCD vs. LED LCD--but it also varies between different manufacturers of the same display technology.
  • Having said this, in general they are fairly accurate without any correction. Typically, errors do not rise above xy0.006, but occasionally are as large as xy0.010. It is not uncommon with several display types to see negligible errors in the xy0.002-0.003 range. With some colors on some displays they are spot on--no error at all compared to a reference device (this is often true with blue).
  • I have no hard data to back this up right now, but my sense is that the retail meters are slightly more accurate than the OEM meters. This is counterintuitive, so when I finally get around to doing this study I'll look at this.
What topic does this put to rest? For those of us without an innate sense of how good, bad, or indifferent an xy0.006 error is there's no way to tell if this amounts to a dE we care about or not. All that leaves us with is your comment that the performance of the d3 varies across technologies and manufacturers. You even say "less accurate with plasmas."

That doesn't sound like a topic that is ended to me. That sounds like a topic that needs to be kept in mind when using a colorimeter. While it remains to be seen if and how much profiling to an i1pro is an improvement over out of the box performance, it seems to me there's still the potential for some value to be found there.
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:38 PM
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What topic does this put to rest? For those of us without an innate sense of how good, bad, or indifferent an xy0.006 error is there's no way to tell if this amounts to a dE we care about or not.
Really? "No way to tell"? I can easily provide dE equivalents for these numbers, and even if I didn't anyone can calculate for themselves the dE that results from a measured deviation from a known standard in xy values using a variety of sources. This is not difficult or mysterious.

What it would, I hope, put to rest is this endless and tiresome speculation about whether a colorimeter--in this case the D3--is accurate enough to use without profiling? People speculate about this because they don't know how accurate the D3 is. If, after being informed on this subject, someone still doesn't know whether they need to profile the D3, then that means they lack a clear idea of what standard of accuracy is acceptable. No one can do anything about that.

There would remain only two issues: how accurate is MY D3 (remember, there is unit-to-unit variation)? Also, how accurate is an i1Pro2 relative to a reference device? The first question can only be answered by a direct comparison to a reference device. Anyone can obtain this by having their meter calibrated, certainly by us and perhaps by other vendors. The second question can be answered only by a similar study of data comparing i1Pro's to a reference device. I have very limited data on this, but my sense is that an i1Pro 2's accuracy is similar to a really good D3. It's accuracy won't vary as much from display to display and the maximum error you will see is considerably smaller. But on some displays compared to some D3s, its accuracy will be about the same.

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Old 08-17-2014, 01:11 PM
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There are some people that simple can't have their meter profiled. So publishing such findings will be very very welcomed and useful.
What I would like to see and will put my mind at rest will be a comparison on Panasonic plasmas (maybe the most selled plasmas around the world) with the correction provided by x-rite with the plasma EDR and the profiled with a spectro matrix.
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Old 08-17-2014, 01:33 PM
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Really? "No way to tell"? I can easily provide dE equivalents for these numbers, and even if I didn't anyone can calculate for themselves the dE that results from a measured deviation from a known standard in xy values using a variety of sources. This is not difficult or mysterious.
When I said "no way to tell" I meant "no way to tell simply by looking at the numbers you quoted". If you don't like that claim, will you allow me "it is not intuitively obvious"? I never said it was mysterious, but we'll just have to agree to disagree as to whether it's "difficult" or not. I will only note that although you could easily have provided dE equivalents, you did not.

I've looked at the math a bit and I think it's fair to say that most amateurs (and maybe some professionals) don't have an innate knowledge of how an xy0.006 error maps to a dE value and whether that dE would be constant across the gamut and all luminance levels. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't have purchased calibration software.

What did you mean by "put an end to this topic"? That you think there is no value to profiling a d3 off of an i1pro or that there's no need to inform people that it's a possibility and might have some benefits? Even if you're lucky and have an excellent d3 there's still the problem of drift over time. Why does calibration software include the option if it provides no value?
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Old 08-17-2014, 03:46 PM
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Old 08-17-2014, 04:35 PM
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
One of these days I am going to put a definitive end to this topic. I have profiled hundreds of D3s using a JETI 1201 on several different display devices. I have all of that data archived. When I get the time someday I will publish that data. I can say a few things now.
/QUOTE]
Tom your data will be flawed if you are using a Jeti 1201 as your reference meter, maybe not so much with other types of display's but certainly with Plasma's like the VT60.

As we both know the Jeti 1201 really is not made for are type of calibrations, that's why Jeti has the 1211 with its ability to auto/manual sync and slightly different spects.

When you make up generic meter profile for the D3, what are you setting the error margin to. ?
The same question for when you use a spectro to profile a colormeter. ?

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Old 08-17-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
When I said "no way to tell" I meant "no way to tell simply by looking at the numbers you quoted". If you don't like that claim, will you allow me "it is not intuitively obvious"? I never said it was mysterious, but we'll just have to agree to disagree as to whether it's "difficult" or not. I will only note that although you could easily have provided dE equivalents, you did not.

I've looked at the math a bit and I think it's fair to say that most amateurs (and maybe some professionals) don't have an innate knowledge of how an xy0.006 error maps to a dE value and whether that dE would be constant across the gamut and all luminance levels. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't have purchased calibration software.

What did you mean by "put an end to this topic"? That you think there is no value to profiling a d3 off of an i1pro or that there's no need to inform people that it's a possibility and might have some benefits? Even if you're lucky and have an excellent d3 there's still the problem of drift over time. Why does calibration software include the option if it provides no value?
1. You don't have to do the math yourself. I have a spreadsheet posted on our web site in which you can simply type the reference and test xyY values and the dE is reported using multiple methods. This is available to anyone. If you are a ChromaPure user, the same feature is available in the Conversion Utility module. In HCFR, if you restrict yourself to RGBYCMW you can type any value for the test color and get a dE reported. The Bruce Lindbloom web site offers a dE calculator for any pair of test and reference colors. None of this is difficult, and requires no specialized knowledge, skills, or experience.

2. I meant endless questions about whether a good, affordable colorimeter is "good enough" for a satisfactory calibration. If you know what your tolerances are and you know what the meter's likely error level is, that's an easy question to answer.

3. ALL instruments--even very expensive reference spectros--drift over time to various degrees depending on how they are used and stored.

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Old 08-17-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Tom your data will be flawed if you are using a Jeti 1201 as your reference meter, maybe not so much with other types of display's but certainly with Plasma's like the VT60.

As we both know the Jeti 1201 really is not made for are type of calibrations, that's why Jeti has the 1211 with its ability to auto/manual sync and slightly different spects.

When you make up generic meter profile for the D3, what are you setting the error margin to. ?
The same question for when you use a spectro to profile a colormeter. ?
First, the problem with the 1201 and plasmas, as you certainly know, is repeatability. As you also know, this problem is mostly confined to red. It doesn't exist at all with blue, and is present to lesser degrees with green and white. Second, if you are willing to take a little time--and with profiling you can certainly do this--all you have to do is take multiple readings and then average the result. That smooths out any repeatability problem.

The 1201 is slower than the 1211 and won't work with lower levels of luminance, but is otherwise a superb instrument for profiling. I tested it recently against a $28,000 Minolta CS-2000 and they were in agreement to within xy0.001. This was on a plasma. The big difference between the 1201 and 1211 is not with profiling but with use as the main measuring tool. You can actually do that with the 1211. It's nearly impossible to do with the 1201. It would take forever.

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Old 08-17-2014, 06:36 PM
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First, the problem with the 1201 and plasmas, as you certainly know, is repeatability. As you also know, this problem is mostly confined to red. It doesn't exist at all with blue, and is present to lesser degrees with green and white. Second, if you are willing to take a little time--and with profiling you can certainly do this--all you have to do is take multiple readings and then average the result. That smooths out any repeatability problem.
Yes repeatability is the major problem with the 1201. And yes I agree averaging would be the only way to get any kind of guess for repeatability from the 1201. However averaging is not exact, when you take into account the xyY, RGB and XYZ readings and compare for profiling a colormeter.

Its for the above question and reply reason why I asked what are the tolerance levels when using ChromaPure's or any calibration software like ChromaPure tools for meter profiling.

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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
The 1201 is slower than the 1211 and won't work with lower levels of luminance, but is otherwise a superb instrument for profiling. I tested it recently against a $28,000 Minolta CS-2000 and they were in agreement to within xy0.001. This was on a plasma. The big difference between the 1201 and 1211 is not with profiling but with use as the main measuring tool. You can actually do that with the 1211. It's nearly impossible to do with the 1201. It would take forever.
How many readings did you have to take to get the 1201 within x,y 0.001 of the reading form the CS 2000 for RGB xyY.? Understanding that repeatability is a major problem with the 1201 on a plasma like the VT60.

How about Y readings in your comparisons.?

Now take this to the color meter profiling level using ChromaPure meter profiling tool.
Will ChromaPure take multiple RGB reading for the Jeti 1201, then average those readings for the D3 profile.?

Please understand I am not questioning the D3 meter ability to be a fairly good stand alone colormeter for standard type of calibration. Nor am I questioning your level of expertise.

ss
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
However averaging is not exact, when you take into account the xyY, RGB and XYZ readings and compare for profiling a colormeter.

Its for the above question and reply reason why I asked what are the tolerance levels when using ChromaPure's or any calibration software like ChromaPure tools for meter profiling.
Well, NOTHING is exact. Perfection does not exist. I don't know what you mean by "tolerance levels" in this context.

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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
How many readings did you have to take to get the 1201 within x,y 0.001 of the reading form the CS 2000 for RGB xyY.? Understanding that repeatability is a major problem with the 1201 on a plasma like the VT60.

How about Y readings in your comparisons.?

Now take this to the color meter profiling level using ChromaPure meter profiling tool.
Will ChromaPure take multiple RGB reading for the Jeti 1201, then average those readings for the D3 profile.?
I didn't do a study of the minimum number of readings required. I just compared the reading of the CS-2000 with the 1201 reference values I had previously stored. Those values used, I think, 10 readings.
We don't profile Y values. Colorimeters have no trouble reading luminance accurately.
Yes, of course.

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Old 08-18-2014, 01:29 AM
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Then I found out that using an i1pro2s to profile a i1d3 don't work well on plasmas. Maybe on other technologies it works well but just not on a plasma. Something about peaky spectral light distribution.
That's rather strange. Plasma's use phosphors to create RGB, so their spectral response is quite similar to CRT's, and i1pro's (and the Spectrolino that preceded it) have been used to successfully measure CRT's for a very long time.

My i1pro2 agrees with my JETI 1211 within an average of < 0.66 DE on a wide range of CRT color samples - I have no reason to think a Plasma would be much different to that.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:53 AM
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I think the red push is/was a specific panny problem, not a plasma problem. I've had the problem as well, as soon as you use the tv's low level WB adjustments. Never had the problem now I only use the high level WB on the tv and use the rest on my lumagen mini
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
That's rather strange. Plasma's use phosphors to create RGB, so their spectral response is quite similar to CRT's, and i1pro's (and the Spectrolino that preceded it) have been used to successfully measure CRT's for a very long time.

My i1pro2 agrees with my JETI 1211 within an average of < 0.66 DE on a wide range of CRT color samples - I have no reason to think a Plasma would be much different to that.
Try it on a fairly recent model plasma and see if you get the same results.

My experience has been on a Panasonic 65VT50 and a Samsung 64F8500. Neither profiled well off of the i1pro2.

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Old 08-18-2014, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Neither profiled well off of the i1pro2.
Profiled well???? Did you compare the i1Pro to a reference spectro? If so, publish the readings please.

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Old 08-18-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Profiled well???? Did you compare the i1Pro to a reference spectro? If so, publish the readings please.
It was the i1pro2 and not the i1pro.

It was visibly obvious that the i1d3 profiled off of my i1pro2 was far enough off in red that it wasn't usable. I'd revert to the Chromapure plasma profile for the i1d3 as it was closer.

When I wanted to pursue LUTs calibrations with the eecolor box, I switched to calman as chromapure doesn't support the eecolor box. Tried using the i1pro2 again and didn't find the results satisfactory to the eye. Got my i1d3 profiled off of a jeti 1211 on my display, and the calibrations looked a lot better, then improved with LUTs calibrations.

I didn't see any point in remeasuring the amount of error in a i1pro2 profiled i1d3 that didn't result in a good calibration.

It did occur to me that maybe I got a dud i1pro2 so I sent it off to XRite to be checked out. They sent me another. Assumption is that it would be more accurate....which it probably was yet it didn't result in that much better results. Not one that one that I was satisfied with.

This is the last I'm going to post on this subject as the only people wanting to argue this point apparently haven't made a direct comparison with a plasma.

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Old 08-18-2014, 10:52 AM
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I don't know about any arguing but getting info on some things said has been like pulling teeth.
The i1pro and pro2 have been the meters the average DIYer relies on.
And the Plasma the type TV my gut says has the highest percentage of DIYer calibrators.

so it is expected that any info that brings into question the best tools available for the non pro would
generate some questions.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
I didn't see any point in remeasuring the amount of error in a i1pro2 profiled i1d3 that didn't result in a good calibration.
The point is that there is no way to tell whether your observations have any merit without some evidence of the magnitude of what you are calling an unsatisfactory result. Personally I am skeptical since I have compared the i1pro2 to the JETI 1211 on a plasma and there were no visually significant deviations between the two.
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