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post #1 of 179 Old 08-10-2014, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Set me straight on colorimeters

OK, I get the fundamental operating principle part and the purpose of the various types of color temperature measuring devices.

Where I'm stuck is in figuring out which one to get, especially avoiding things that are locked to a particular software and can be used on more than one computing platform. Ideally, something that with little trouble, could be used to indicate color temperature (balance) and light levels without needing an expensive software package to go with it.

All I want to do is calibrate LCD computer and HDTV displays in my home and not spend a fortune.

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post #2 of 179 Old 08-10-2014, 02:00 PM
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Greetings

What does a fortune mean?

$150 ..
$300 ...
$600
$1000
$6000

A fortune to some is nothing to others ... like asking how long a piece of string is.

Most seem to get the i1D3 device in the $250 range. Then you have to find the software to use ... which might be free or cost you some more money.

Then realize that this can be a lot like buying a professional camera ... having one doesn't make you a professional. Knowing how to run the hardware and software doesn't mean you know how to calibrate a TV properly.

Traffic engineering software does not teach its users to be traffic engineers first. Books on brain surgery do not teach you to be a doctor first.

Don't go into this with unrealistic expectations and then get mad when those expectations are not met.

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post #3 of 179 Old 08-10-2014, 02:46 PM
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in terms of software, the i1d3 will work perfectly with HCFR and ArgyllCMS
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post #4 of 179 Old 08-10-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by spacediver View Post
in terms of software, the i1d3 will work perfectly with HCFR and ArgyllCMS
And if you want commercial software like ChromaPure and CalMAN get the OEM version of the D3.

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post #5 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
And if you want commercial software like ChromaPure and CalMAN get the OEM version of the D3.
Both CalMAN and Chromapure support the retail version.

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post #6 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 11:17 AM
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If you are on a budget, and are willing to put in a bit more effort learning to use your meter with free software, you can just pick up the Colormunki Display like I did and use HCFR for calibration, and dispcalGUI + ArgyllCMS for profiling monitors. Both work fantastically well, and the Colormunki Display has the same internal hardware as the more expensive i1D3.

The caveat is that the Colormunki Display will not be supported by any 3rd party software like Calman, Chromapure, etc. However, if you are on a budget and are willing to put in a bit of effort learning to calibrate your display and use HCFR, you can get excellent results this way.
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post #7 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 11:33 AM
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I recommend the Ione display pro (D3) to satisfy all the needs you posted.

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post #8 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
The caveat is that the Colormunki Display will not be supported by any 3rd party software like Calman, Chromapure, etc.
Hello

Read speed is also much slower than the i1Display Pro.
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post #9 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post
Both CalMAN and Chromapure support the retail version.
If he would ever want to try LightSpace he'd need an OEM.

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post #10 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
If he would ever want to try LightSpace he'd need an OEM.
That wasn't a software mentioned in the original post.

I just wanted to point out that the major home theater calibration softwares do in fact support the retail meter.

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post #11 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 03:35 PM
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Hello

Read speed is also much slower than the i1Display Pro.
I don't know about it being "much" slower. Yes, there is a firmware limitation that artificially includes a delay of ~1s in measurements using the ColorMunki Display. I frankly don't see any reason why that should matter to a budget conscious shopper looking to calibrate a display. Unless you are going to go around calibrating a whole bunch of monitors/tvs or start a business doing so, the few extra seconds lost in taking readings has really no impact on the whole process. The Colormunki Display is still way faster than my old Spyder 2, and everyone managed just fine back in the day when those colorimeters were the state of the art.

If you can afford the i1d3 then it makes sense to pick one up, but if someone is planning on only using free software like HCFR and ArgyllCMS + dispcalGUI, then the Colormunki Display imo is a much better option for the price conscious shopper. You will have the same accuracy and sealed optics that everyone likes about the i1d3.
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That wasn't a software mentioned in the original post.
The OP has no mention of any software.
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post #12 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
If you can afford the i1d3 then it makes sense to pick one up, but if someone is planning on only using free software like HCFR and ArgyllCMS + dispcalGUI, then the Colormunki Display imo is a much better option for the price conscious shopper. You will have the same accuracy and sealed optics that everyone likes about the i1d3.
The colormunki is a step down. The $50 price difference isn't worth the savings imho.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...op+Nav-Search=
$150

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...op+Nav-Search=
$199

Seriously slower in the free apps, and not compatible with commercial apps. Seems like $50 well spent to me.

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The OP has no mention of any software.
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
And if you want commercial software like ChromaPure and CalMAN get the OEM version of the D3.
I was referring to this post.

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post #13 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
I was referring to this post.
Ah. I've always thought of OP to stand for original poster or opening post, so that's why I was confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
The colormunki is a step down. The $50 price difference isn't worth the savings imho.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...op+Nav-Search=
$150

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...op+Nav-Search=
$199
At those prices, I'd agree with you (assuming $200 isn't over budget). However, $199 isn't the usual selling price. I snagged my Colormunki Display for $100 new, so in my situation it was a no brainer. If the i1 display pro was on sale from BHPhoto for $150 at the time, I would have certainly snagged it (still kicking myself for missing out on that).

I think the i1 display pro is great, but $50/$100 is still $50/$100 and if you're not ever going to make use of what it buys you (primarily, compatibility with commercial software) then it's still money you could have used to purchase a few extra BluRays or saved away in the bank. On the flip side, the flexibility of being able to move up to other commercial software may be nice to have for some folks, and that's why it is something for the OP to decide on.

In my case, I know that I am never going to be able to justify spending on commercial software for display calibration, so saving by purchasing the Colormunki Display was a no-brainer. With a bit more investment of time and effort and some fantastic help and advice from all you fantastic folks on the forums, Ive been able to achieve near perfect calibration on my set (Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings?), so it's not like someone on a budget can't make do and hope to get good results with cheaper/less capable hardware. I guess that is all I was trying to convey to the OP.
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post #14 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok by "OEM" version, does that mean it is restricted to only one software vendor?

I just hate getting locked into a piece of hardware that only works with one vendor.

Frankly, I'd be happy with something that just read out what the color temperature is with no further adieu. I'd never buy a socket set that didn't work with other brands of socket wrenches.

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post #15 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 06:39 PM
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See this thread for some clarification
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post #16 of 179 Old 08-11-2014, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
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Frankly, I'd be happy with something that just read out what the color temperature is with no further adieu. I'd never buy a socket set that didn't work with other brands of socket wrenches.
You'd want x,y,Y data.

Color temperature is like longitude. If you only ever had longitude, you'd never be able to navigate to anywhere.

The X-Rite meter program had the OEM meter for 3rd parties to use, and the Retail meter for X-Rite software.

Many 3rd party softwares also support the retail meter at this point.

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post #17 of 179 Old 08-12-2014, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuke View Post
Ok by "OEM" version, does that mean it is restricted to only one software vendor?

I just hate getting locked into a piece of hardware that only works with one vendor.

Frankly, I'd be happy with something that just read out what the color temperature is with no further adieu. I'd never buy a socket set that didn't work with other brands of socket wrenches.

Hi, there are 3 version of the i1Display Pro instrument :

The standard X-Rite i1Display Pro (Retail, available at stores, sometimes SpectraCAL are selling retail meters also.)

OEM Generic version of the i1Display Pro (Version that LightIllusion, ChromaPure and sometimes SpectraCAL are selling.)

Custom OEM branded i1Display Pro (SpectraCAL C6 of other Branded OEM's versions from HP, Toshiba, Eizo, Nec etc...)

Retail version is working with X-Rite i1Profiler, that you can download the latest version from X-Rite's website, and you can create VCGT (Video Card Gamma Table) LUT's / ICC profiles for your PC/Mac monitor.

You can operate the retail version of the meter with HCFR, CalMAN, ChromaPure, ArgyllCMS calibration software.

OEM version or OEM Branded version of the meter can't use X-Rite's i1Profiler.

You can operate the OEM version of the meter with LightSpace, HCFR, CalMAN, ChromaPure, ArgyllCMS calibration software.

Custom OEM branded i1Display Pro like SpectraCAL's C6 is working only with CalMAN.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #18 of 179 Old 08-12-2014, 04:26 AM
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I don't get why people rely on some perfect charts achieved with colorimeters.
I myself am using the d3 and I'm very frustrated that in my country there's no one willing to rent a spectro to profile my meter.
Unless my sony br player isn't too much off (and have checked with my laptop as a pattern generator too and it's pretty much the same) I simply don't find the calibrated-perfect charts picture to be accurate for my eyes.
So, unless paired with a spectro I wouldn't rely too much on a disp pro colorimeter.
I would love to see some charts with a profiled vs edr-plasma I1disp pro on a Panasonic plasma.

Last edited by Andrei_VVB; 08-12-2014 at 06:18 AM.
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post #19 of 179 Old 08-15-2014, 04:09 AM
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I don't get why people rely on some perfect charts achieved with colorimeters.
I myself am using the d3 and I'm very frustrated that in my country there's no one willing to rent a spectro to profile my meter.
Unless my sony br player isn't too much off (and have checked with my laptop as a pattern generator too and it's pretty much the same) I simply don't find the calibrated-perfect charts picture to be accurate for my eyes.
So, unless paired with a spectro I wouldn't rely too much on a disp pro colorimeter.
I would love to see some charts with a profiled vs edr-plasma I1disp pro on a Panasonic plasma.
The problem is that calibration with a non accurate meter can still yield you nice looking charts that don't transfer into a good looking picture.

The only combination that satisfied my picky nature was to use a i1D3 profiled off of a Jeti 1211 using a eecolor processor to hole LUTs calibrations. Additionally, I'm programming different gammas into the LUTs box to handle how different content is mastered.
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post #20 of 179 Old 08-15-2014, 04:41 AM
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Wonder how far was d3 with his own edr from the profiled matrix?

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post #21 of 179 Old 08-15-2014, 10:17 AM
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So you get my frustration. .
I sure do. Kept doing what I was reading here on AVS and knew that my results weren't very good. Many times they were worst than out of the box with just a few minor adjustments.

Eventually I figured out that calibration software doesn't know how accurate your colorimeter is and colorimeters vary in inaccuracy. Then I found out that using an i1pro2s to profile a i1d3 don't work well on plasmas. Maybe on other technologies it works well but just not on a plasma. Something about peaky spectral light distribution.

Then you figure out how much its going to cost you to get the "right" spectrometer along with the upgrades to your software. That's about the cost of 3 high end displays or a down payment on a house.

That's about the time you wish you didn't buy any of this stuff and just hired a good pro calibrator. Emphasis on "good" as not all are. Of the three calibrators I've dwelt with, I'd only consider using Chad B. Well equipped and knows his stuff.
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post #22 of 179 Old 08-15-2014, 09:07 PM
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I sure do. Kept doing what I was reading here on AVS and knew that my results weren't very good. Many times they were worst than out of the box with just a few minor adjustments.

Eventually I figured out that calibration software doesn't know how accurate your colorimeter is and colorimeters vary in inaccuracy. Then I found out that using an i1pro2s to profile a i1d3 don't work well on plasmas. Maybe on other technologies it works well but just not on a plasma. Something about peaky spectral light distribution.

Then you figure out how much its going to cost you to get the "right" spectrometer along with the upgrades to your software. That's about the cost of 3 high end displays or a down payment on a house.

That's about the time you wish you didn't buy any of this stuff and just hired a good pro calibrator. Emphasis on "good" as not all are. Of the three calibrators I've dwelt with, I'd only consider using Chad B. Well equipped and knows his stuff.
interesting.
any specific info you can pass on?

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post #23 of 179 Old 08-15-2014, 10:05 PM
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Yes, I too would like to see the evidence that you can't profile a d3 from an i1pro on a plasma. That would essentially mean that you can't use an i1pro on a plasma, and I've never heard that was the case.

As far as I know, peaky light distribution is what makes colorimeters like the d3 untrustworthy on displays that have spectral distributions different from the one's that their built-in tables are designed for, but that's exactly why you profile the colorimeter from the spectrometer.
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post #24 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 02:19 AM
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Yes, I too would like to see the evidence that you can't profile a d3 from an i1pro on a plasma. That would essentially mean that you can't use an i1pro on a plasma, and I've never heard that was the case.

As far as I know, peaky light distribution is what makes colorimeters like the d3 untrustworthy on displays that have spectral distributions different from the one's that their built-in tables are designed for, but that's exactly why you profile the colorimeter from the spectrometer.
You can, but the question is how accurate will it be?

The size of the measurements in the i1pro and i1pro2 are 10 nanometers in width. In a reference spectro such as the jeti 1211, it's 5 nanometers in width. So the precision of the measurements are affected.

I know that between me and 2 other i1pro2 users, the i1pro2 under measures red. I also recall when Silly Sally sent his i1pro2 to Klein (makers of the K10A) Klein found that his i1pro2 under read the color red when compared to their reference grade spectro for plasmas. That translates into over correcting and having too much red in the picture. I've not been able to verify this but one i1pro user claims that it under measures green. There was a design change in the i1pro2 from the i1pro but I would have expected the error to be the same.....unless XRite was trying to correct green and got red wrong in the process. If you have an older i1pro, I recall a mod that does slightly increase accuracy. You'll have to google for it for more info.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Profile your colorimeter from a i1pro2 and observe flesh tones. You'll find that you don't have the range of tones/colors that you have in real life. In people of color, that shows up as a more red and less brown. In caucasians, you don't have the various shades of skin tones and there is a definite red bias. Watch the Today show where you've got a pretty good range of skin tones and errors seem to stand out better.

At one time I was trying to quantify the amount of error in red so that I might enter corrections to the i1pro2 reference readings. Nobody really seemed interesting in quantifying the amount of error so I was unsuccessful in getting this. I also tried getting a profile off of the jeti/i1pro2 and transferring it as a correction to i1pro2 to i1d3 but it failed miserably. Partly because the i1pro2 didn't profile well from the jeti 1211 and I think partly because the software didn't take the offset correctly....or maybe I got the math wrong. lol

As far as accuracy is concerned, you also have to keep in mind that traditional 6 color calibrations only gets you accurate at one lumanance level. If it turns out that other luminance levels are off, you'll likely want to go the LUTs calibration method for accuracy. The LUTS processor from eecolor cost about $700. Not all displays need this but its simple enough to measure with some software and decide on whether or not to go the LUTs route. Only problem with using a LUTs processor is that I watch a fair amount of Amazon prime and Netflix off of my Samsung's internal smart features. You can't exactly insert LUTs processing to those apps. Will probably get an external box in the future for those apps. Given the picture quality on my F8500, I don't really have any interest in upgrade displays. So what I spent to get this picture would have bought another display but then it would have needed calibration too.

Bottom line is don't expect to get much more than pretty charts trying to do it on the cheap. If you want accuracy (which is the whole point of calibration in the first place) you're going to have to spend more and very likely cost way more than what you would pay a pro calibrator for even a traditional calibration.
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post #25 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 09:52 AM
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Greetings

When an imperfect device tells you that you are perfect ... are you?

My Jeti and CS 200 certainly weren't. CS 2000 certainly isn't. Don't delude yourself into thinking that perfection is attainable ... it ain't.

Regards
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post #26 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 10:16 AM
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Greetings

When an imperfect device tells you that you are perfect ... are you?

My Jeti and CS 200 certainly weren't. CS 2000 certainly isn't. Don't delude yourself into thinking that perfection is attainable ... it ain't.

Regards
Does one need perfection or close enough where you can't tell the difference with the human eye?

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post #27 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 10:34 AM
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Does one need perfection or close enough where you can't tell the difference with the human eye?
from your previous posts, I thought you were/are wanting perfection.
aT least in trusting high dollar equipment over mid range.

it is true that 5nm is twice as good as 10nm.
if a TV had adjustment precision that operated at 5nm steps then
the idea that a high dollar meter is needed and twice as accurate holds water.

I do understand your thinking and have struggled with "accuracy" issues and
methodology needed to minimize errors.

pattern source, proper order of displaying them, accurate meters and their needed
order of reading, contact vs tripod, profile tables at what brightness, repeatable readings, drivers, PC hardware, signal type, 4:2:2 RGB ect, signal hz, then the
which primary needs a bump.


Then the inherent problems with doing plasma.
ABL. window size, panel fatigue, meter heat, IR.

After all the mental games and what ifs, I have determined that even a
midrange PG, meter, program can improve an image.

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post #28 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
from your previous posts, I thought you were/are wanting perfection.
aT least in trusting high dollar equipment over mid range.

it is true that 5nm is twice as good as 10nm.
if a TV had adjustment precision that operated at 5nm steps then
the idea that a high dollar meter is needed and twice as accurate holds water.

I do understand your thinking and have struggled with "accuracy" issues and
methodology needed to minimize errors.

pattern source, proper order of displaying them, accurate meters and their needed
order of reading, contact vs tripod, profile tables at what brightness, repeatable readings, drivers, PC hardware, signal type, 4:2:2 RGB ect, signal hz, then the
which primary needs a bump.


Then the inherent problems with doing plasma.
ABL. window size, panel fatigue, meter heat, IR.

After all the mental games and what ifs, I have determined that even a
midrange PG, meter, program can improve an image.
Sure, I'd prefer perfection but the best we can hope for is a high level of accuracy most of the time.

That level of accuracy is dependent on the tools one uses.....and the quirkyness of the display.

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post #29 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Does one need perfection or close enough where you can't tell the difference with the human eye?
10nm is not accurate with Laser like the Mits LaserVues. No problems with plasmas that I have found. I use a very specific skin tone pattern, have 3 PDP personally, and all are good both with charts and the eye.

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post #30 of 179 Old 08-16-2014, 11:05 AM
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10nm is not accurate with Laser like the Mits LaserVues. No problems with plasmas that I have found. I use a very specific skin tone pattern, have 3 PDP personally, and all are good both with charts and the eye.
Have you personally compared the results to that using a jeti 1211 or equivalent on a plasma?

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