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post #691 of 759 Old 03-08-2017, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Yes st2084 is an absolute standard. So what are you suppose to do if your set can't go as low as the lowest codes, or as high as the highest one? Even if a standard gets adopted, like bt2390, and specifies exactly what you should do, there will be other options that some, maybe even a majority like, that differ from the existing standard.

For example, if I had a OLED that only went to 500 NITs, I would be tempted to use a 2:1 mulplier, such that I had exactly 1/2 the ST2084 spec for 0-1000 nit input.

If you can't reach the full st2084 spec, then whatever you do is a compromise, subject to differing trade offs.
Hi, as Steve Shaw posted earlier, the BT-2390 is not a standard, it's a report.

If you have a display which don't have 0 nits blacks then you loose the details below your native black level. Brightness setting it's not working like we used it as SDR, if you change the Brightness setting to be able to view more flashing bars, this will affect the display internal programming for tone mapping, so you will do things to look very wrong.

If you have LG OLED, it's very easy to test this in HDR mode....if you change the Brightness from default 50 to 51 (which will display more flashing near black bars in a HDR Contrast pattern)...when you will watch a movie, all the near black color with be washout....all low luminance levels will be desaturated a lot.

If you have a 500nits display, you can't use any multiplier because the clipping point can't changed, you can't bypass the internal gamut/tone mapping to consumer displays. You can use multiplier in projectors where (since there is no HDR standard) you can manage them to not do any mapping with HD Linker etc..

The same can't happen with HDR displays, because the displays don't have the same output when you disable HDR mode...for example LG OLED can have about 750 nits calibrated in HDR mode and up to 450nits without HDR activated.

In an ideal consumer world for HDR, we need to have an option to disable any internal gamut/tone mapping (something broadcasting HDR monitors are doing...since they don't do any mapping internally.)..and use 3D LUT capable devices (like Lumagen PRO) to do all the stuff with a proper software like LightSpace.
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post #692 of 759 Old 03-08-2017, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, as Steve Shaw posted earlier, the BT-2390 is not a standard, it's a report.
This seems irrelevant to me. While it is not a standard yet, it may well become one. And even if it does not become a standard, it has good ideas in it. But even if it becomes a standard, I'm suggesting there are other ways to tone map, that may be better, depending on the display's capability.

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you have a display which don't have 0 nits blacks then you loose the details below your native black level. Brightness setting it's not working like we used it as SDR, if you change the Brightness setting to be able to view more flashing bars, this will affect the display internal programming for tone mapping, so you will do things to look very wrong.

If you have LG OLED, it's very easy to test this in HDR mode....if you change the Brightness from default 50 to 51 (which will display more flashing near black bars in a HDR Contrast pattern)...when you will watch a movie, all the near black color with be washout....all low luminance levels will be desaturated a lot.
Well do all HDR displays operate the same? Again, BT2390 has a recommendation for adding a bias that goes away with higher signal input, to handle content below the displays black level. IMHO, if a display crushes low level content, it's deficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you have a 500nits display, you can't use any multiplier because the clipping point can't changed, you can't bypass the internal gamut/tone mapping to consumer displays. You can use multiplier in projectors where (since there is no HDR standard) you can manage them to not do any mapping with HD Linker etc..

The same can't happen with HDR displays, because the displays don't have the same output when you disable HDR mode...for example LG OLED can have about 750 nits calibrated in HDR mode and up to 450nits without HDR activated.

In an ideal consumer world for HDR, we need to have an option to disable any internal gamut/tone mapping (something broadcasting HDR monitors are doing...since they don't do any mapping internally.)..and use 3D LUT capable devices (like Lumagen PRO) to do all the stuff with a proper software like LightSpace.
So why you can't do the same trick as we are doing with projectors (only with the lumagen instead of the linker)? i.e. load a lumagen pro with a gamma corrected ST2084 curve with tone mapping, tell the LG its SDR, BT2020, and get HDR with 450 NIT peak?
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post #693 of 759 Old 03-08-2017, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
This seems irrelevant to me. While it is not a standard yet, it may well become one. And even if it does not become a standard, it has good ideas in it. But even if it becomes a standard, I'm suggesting there are other ways to tone map, that may be better, depending on the display's capability.

Well do all HDR displays operate the same? Again, BT2390 has a recommendation for adding a bias that goes away with higher signal input, to handle content below the displays black level. IMHO, if a display crushes low level content, it's deficient.

So why you can't do the same trick as we are doing with projectors (only with the lumagen instead of the linker)? i.e. load a lumagen pro with a gamma corrected ST2084 curve with tone mapping, tell the LG its SDR, BT2020, and get HDR with 450 NIT peak?
We are talking about the current display status, how they playback HDR now, about what will happen 2 years later, makes no sense to do guesses about what supposed to do, it doesn't matter what we say or what reports or specification are advising, it matters what display companies will do.

Now if you have calibrate for 750nits it doesn't mean that gamut mapping starts at 750 nits and above, it's unknown what each model / with each firmware is doing. This is why even with perfect calibrated grayscale HDR displays (and good tracking of DCI-P3 inside REC.2020 colorspace) look bad in real content.

450nits are very low for HDR effect.

Even if you spend at least $5.000 for a Lumagen PRO, you can't do 3D LUT for HDR right now, Lumagen has to add a Shaper LUT (1D LUT Input Table) before the 3D LUT (which will come this year) to be able to do tone/gamut mapping. Now it has 1D LUT after the 3D LUT (1D LUT Output Table) which is not helpful for that application.

You will have to calibrate 1D Output LUT, then 1D Input LUT and then 3D LUT.

When this will be added via firmware update from Lumagen, LightSpace is already capable for that application since it's something they use for years in post-production world

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post #694 of 759 Old 03-08-2017, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

450nits are very low for HDR effect.
You only need 500 NITs to get the Premium Ultra HD badge

No display can meet the full st2084 spec, so both at the bottom end, and the top, an accommodation by the display manufacturer is required (even if it's not in the spec).

Clipping at the low end is just as wrong as clipping at the top end. So if the displays are crushing low end content, without adaquate controls to fix that, then they are deficient.

It doesn't mean that it's not possible to fix it, just that some manufacturers are not doing what they should.
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post #695 of 759 Old 03-09-2017, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW you can use current Lumagen PRO firmware (without 1D Input LUT) with LightSpace and a consumer high brightness TV (without activating it's HDR mode...if it can give it's native wide gamut) with only using the 3D LUT table of Lumagen PRO, but I haven't seen anyone to do this and get any feedback or any post-calibration report etc.
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post #696 of 759 Old 03-30-2017, 12:22 PM
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AVSF'S WIFI-SPY TALKS TO HD GURU'S GREG TARR ABOUT CALMAN AUTOCAL

"Initially, the program is being developed for Samsung’s 2017 televisions, but a SpectraCal representative said the company is working on adding other brands and models as well. The company had previously offered a similar program for select Panasonic plasma televisions, but due to the demise of the PDP display category (and Panasonic’s TV business in the United States) that version is no longer offered.

In addition, the operation and accuracy of the old Panasonic AutoCal has also been significantly improved in the newest iteration, said Tyler Pruitt, technical liason for Portrait Displays which owns Shoreline, WA-based SpectraCal."

https://hdguru.com/spectracal-develo...vs/#more-20602
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
AVSF'S WIFI-SPY TALKS TO HD GURU'S GREG TARR ABOUT CALMAN AUTOCAL

"Initially, the program is being developed for Samsung’s 2017 televisions, but a SpectraCal representative said the company is working on adding other brands and models as well. The company had previously offered a similar program for select Panasonic plasma televisions, but due to the demise of the PDP display category (and Panasonic’s TV business in the United States) that version is no longer offered.

In addition, the operation and accuracy of the old Panasonic AutoCal has also been significantly improved in the newest iteration, said Tyler Pruitt, technical liason for Portrait Displays which owns Shoreline, WA-based SpectraCal."

https://hdguru.com/spectracal-develo...vs/#more-20602
"Although the AutoCal software will be most integrated in Samsung’s 2017 models, Pruitt said SpectraCal is adding support for some Samsung 2015 and 2016 models as well."

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post #698 of 759 Old 04-02-2017, 10:55 AM
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Here's a link to Dolby patent on tone mapping if your interested.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...(Dolby+AND+HDR)

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post #699 of 759 Old 04-06-2017, 01:27 AM
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Along with Flanders Scientific (FSI - manufacturers of professional grading displays and LUT boxes), and a number of our professional LightSpace CMS users, we have been looking at HDR TVs and methods for accurate calibration - specifically for grading work.

What we have found may be of interest to some home cinema users, especially those with LUT boxes.
(Even the eeColor if the source input HDR signal can be down-res'd to HD resolution - HD resolution HDR is a valid format after all...)

The big issue with the use of consumer TVs for grading work has been they cannot be accurately HDR calibrated, due to a combination of limited internal CMS capabilities, and the 'burnt-in' EOTF, with roll-off.

But, we seem to have found a couple of exceptions...

With LG OLED Series 7 (and possibly series 6), and Panasonic DX900 TVs (and others possibly?) you can use the service remote/pro settings to manually force the display into 'HDR On' mode from the service/pro menus.

When you do this the display goes to its true peak luminance output without requiring HDR metadata over the HDM connection and without triggering a ST2084 EOTF. The upshot of this is that because that HDR metadata is not present the display doesn’t apply the PQ EOTF. So you get max nits output with an EOTF that is much closer to a power curve than it is a PQ type response, with max gamut.

This can then be accurately calibrated via an external LUT box.

This does suggest there could be a very workable way of using the LG OLED/DX900 TVs + LUT Box for HDR calibration... with accurate EOTF and colour calibration.



The above shows a Series 7 LG EOTF calibrated for grading, with no roll-off.
Obliviously for home use roll-off should be applied in the LUT, using the setting available within LightSpace CMS.

For those with a Lumagen Pro this would be a way to perform very accurate HDR calibration.
And the HDR calibration can be any of the available standards within LightSpace CMS.

ST2084 (all PQ based HDR standards)
BBC/NHK HLG
Philips/Technicolor HDR
EclairColor HDR

Just info for interest.

Steve

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post #700 of 759 Old 04-06-2017, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Along with Flanders Scientific (FSI - manufacturers of professional grading displays and LUT boxes), and a number of our professional LightSpace CMS users, we have been looking at HDR TVs and methods for accurate calibration - specifically for grading work.

What we have found may be of interest to some home cinema users, especially those with LUT boxes.
(Even the eeColor if the source input HDR signal can be down-res'd to HD resolution - HD resolution HDR is a valid format after all...)

The big issue with the use of consumer TVs for grading work has been they cannot be accurately HDR calibrated, due to a combination of limited internal CMS capabilities, and the 'burnt-in' EOTF, with roll-off.

But, we seem to have found a couple of exceptions...

With LG OLED Series 7 (and possibly series 6), and Panasonic DX900 TVs (and others possibly?) you can use the service remote/pro settings to manually force the display into 'HDR On' mode from the service/pro menus.

When you do this the display goes to its true peak luminance output without requiring HDR metadata over the HDM connection and without triggering a ST2084 EOTF. The upshot of this is that because that HDR metadata is not present the display doesn’t apply the PQ EOTF. So you get max nits output with an EOTF that is much closer to a power curve than it is a PQ type response, with max gamut.

This can then be accurately calibrated via an external LUT box.

This does suggest there could be a very workable way of using the LG OLED/DX900 TVs + LUT Box for HDR calibration... with accurate EOTF and colour calibration.



The above shows a Series 7 LG EOTF calibrated for grading, with no roll-off.
Obliviously for home use roll-off should be applied in the LUT, using the setting available within LightSpace CMS.

For those with a Lumagen Pro this would be a way to perform very accurate HDR calibration.
And the HDR calibration can be any of the available standards within LightSpace CMS.

ST2084 (all PQ based HDR standards)
BBC/NHK HLG
Philips/Technicolor HDR
EclairColor HDR

Just info for interest.

Steve
For those with a Lumagen Pro this would be a way to perform very accurate HDR calibration.
And the HDR calibration can be any of the available standards within LightSpace CMS


How to do that ? Is there a Guide for light space ?
What is the maximum brightness for test Pattern in lumagen Pro ? can we set the maximum brightness ?


Is i1Disp Pro can measure the maximum brightness for HDR ?
How to do Meter Profile i1Pro 2 to i1Disp Pro ? ( what is the maximum brightness to do the profile ? )


Thanks.
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post #701 of 759 Old 04-07-2017, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post
For those with a Lumagen Pro this would be a way to perform very accurate HDR calibration.
And the HDR calibration can be any of the available standards within LightSpace CMS


How to do that ? Is there a Guide for light space ?
What is the maximum brightness for test Pattern in lumagen Pro ? can we set the maximum brightness ?


Is i1Disp Pro can measure the maximum brightness for HDR ?
How to do Meter Profile i1Pro 2 to i1Disp Pro ? ( what is the maximum brightness to do the profile ? )


Thanks.
i did an initial guide for HDR LUT creation for projection and non HDR displays and it is available to download from the front page of my website, convergent-av.co.uk

As non HDR metadata is being interpreted in this scenario it is irrelevant what max brightness level of patches are. You jut want to profile the display as normal in this high light output mode.

For measuring actual HDR modes the pro has metadata that LightSpace can modify to tell displays the info you want. I am in hotel just now having breakfast but will try to post here later with all parameters that can be set. I just had a look at the guide and i'd suggest you change the roll off to 80 percent now i have done more testing.
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Last edited by Gordon Fraser; 04-07-2017 at 12:57 AM.
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post #702 of 759 Old 04-07-2017, 01:14 AM
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Regarding Roll-Off, if you have a display that has a peak luma capability that is higher than the mastering display - say 1300 nits, when the mastering was 1000 nits, you would not need to use any Roll-Off at all.

The mastering display peak luma value is included in the metadata (normally!), and can be extracted (or just ask Ted!).

Cheers,

Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post
For those with a Lumagen Pro this would be a way to perform very accurate HDR calibration.
And the HDR calibration can be any of the available standards within LightSpace CMS


How to do that ? Is there a Guide for light space ?
What is the maximum brightness for test Pattern in lumagen Pro ? can we set the maximum brightness ?


Is i1Disp Pro can measure the maximum brightness for HDR ?
How to do Meter Profile i1Pro 2 to i1Disp Pro ? ( what is the maximum brightness to do the profile ? )


Thanks.


On the LG OLEDs, every time you turn off the TV it will disable this, you will have to go into the service menu each time you turn on the TV. Not really a solution.

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On the LG OLEDs, every time you turn off the TV it will disable this, you will have to go into the service menu each time you turn on the TV. Not really a solution.
What will it disable please? Sorry, I can't see the context.

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post #705 of 759 Old 04-09-2017, 04:33 AM
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Hi chaps

I'm trying to calibrate HDR on my 55C6 ,
Is there a setting I need to enter to short out the code/ire displacement I'm getting ?
This is what works with oled 80 contrasting 100 using HDR standard.
254-ire25 ,320 -ire 30,386-ire35.419-ire45, and then nothing els moves anything .
20 ire and below nothing works 50 ire and above nothing works .
Luckily 50ire and above have I little blue dE up to 95ire so that can stay but 20ire and below has a big green push .
Any ideas ?
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post #706 of 759 Old 04-09-2017, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
What will it disable please? Sorry, I can't see the context.


Forcing the TV into HDR mode in the service menu.

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What are poeple's thoughts on Calibrating DV and HDR10 using Constant APL patterns? Especially with TVs that have both global and local dimming?

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Does the contrast setting have more wiggle room compared to SDR? I'm sure at some point you could clip white and maybe get pink hues, but if you could possibly get more "nits", out of the display.....why not go for it?

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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
Does the contrast setting have more wiggle room compared to SDR? I'm sure at some point you could clip white and maybe get pink hues, but if you could possibly get more "nits", out of the display.....why not go for it?

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Not that I've seen in the HDR clipping pattern I've seen.

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post #710 of 759 Old 05-07-2017, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
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Not that I've seen in the HDR clipping pattern I've seen.

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The question was more in general, not towards our brand. Was that clipping pattern Casting or HDMI?

I ask because of inaccuracies at the HDMI port (White point(RGB))for connected devices, compared to casting. I would expect white to clip, color as well, but the P55 maintains color detail. I see no, crushing of any color. Actually textures are more pronounced and San Andreas looks like it may have been graded some where within 4000 nits, textures, stitching in clothing all pop.

I have one more title I can look at, that has a dress in it that has some significant stitching that I look at for loss of detail.

The clipping pattern, you used is similar to a standard range pattern, and steps should be visible somewhere between 500-1000 nits?



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post #711 of 759 Old 05-07-2017, 08:41 AM
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The question was more in general, not towards our brand. Was that clipping pattern Casting or HDMI?

I ask because of inaccuracies at the HDMI port (White point(RGB))for connected devices, compared to casting. I would expect white to clip, color as well, but the P55 maintains color detail. I see no, crushing of any color. Actually textures are more pronounced and San Andreas looks like it may have been graded some where within 4000 nits, textures, stitching in clothing all pop.

I have one more title I can look at, that has a dress in it that has some significant stitching that I look at for loss of detail.

The clipping pattern, you used is similar to a standard range pattern, and steps should be visible somewhere between 500-1000 nits?



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I used the patterns I bought.... Can't remember the name. I've done them with casting and HDMI and it clipped the same. Color and White.

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I used the patterns I bought.... Can't remember the name. I've done them with casting and HDMI and it clipped the same. Color and White.

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I I'm not seeing it with content, which doesn't mean it's not there. Check out a image from Spectracal that suggest the P55 can reach 600 nits.

The image also points to the series, having too low nits for 2% windows.

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post #713 of 759 Old 05-07-2017, 10:40 AM
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I I'm not seeing it with content, which doesn't mean it's not there. Check out a image from Spectracal that suggest the P55 can reach 600 nits.

The image also points to the series, having too low nits for 2% windows.

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It cannot. The p75 doesn't even reach 600 nits with patterns. About 440 nits with a 10% window and just over 500 nits full screen. I have to bump it up when calibrating to get 500 nits 10% and 600nits full screen.
If I disable local dimming I get 600 nits at every size window.

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Yeah, with local dimming off, but that's because local dimming is designed to reduce light output on smaller windows.

The P55 can in a similar fashion, I was just pointing that out. With the contrast increase, I'm pushing the display to or closer to it's peak, IMO.

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post #715 of 759 Old 05-07-2017, 09:40 PM
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Hey guys,
Now that we can play HDR movie files in Windows 10 with the Creators update things have certainly gotten more interesting for us PC users

One thing I'm wondering is, is there a free solution to figure out the pixel level of a particular frame of UHD HDR video?

For example, for the circled areas of this frame of the Sony Camp UHD HDR demo I'd like to know what pixel level the highlights are (screenshot is from SDR youtube copy..)


It's fine calibrating with window patterns but I've also been hunting for scenes where I can see clipping and tone mapping and want to understand the highlight pixel brightness level of these areas. Does that make sense and is it easy? In SDR I would just use snipping tool and MS Paint eyedropper tool to get RGB values but I dont think you can do that in HDR?
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Yeah, with local dimming off, but that's because local dimming is designed to reduce light output on smaller windows.

The P55 can in a similar fashion, I was just pointing that out. With the contrast increase, I'm pushing the display to or closer to it's peak, IMO.

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Adjusting contrast is not changing your peak nits of that's what you're trying to say.

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Adjusting contrast is not changing your peak nits of that's what you're trying to say.

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Yes, not above 600 nits, but above peak nits by way of a 10% window. Contrast contributes to cd/m2(nits), so yes even 2% windows. Instead of the nits, going lower for smaller windows, 600 nits should be sustained for highlights.

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post #718 of 759 Old 05-07-2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post
Hey guys,
Now that we can play HDR movie files in Windows 10 with the Creators update things have certainly gotten more interesting for us PC users

One thing I'm wondering is, is there a free solution to figure out the pixel level of a particular frame of UHD HDR video?

For example, for the circled areas of this frame of the Sony Camp UHD HDR demo I'd like to know what pixel level the highlights are (screenshot is from SDR youtube copy..)


It's fine calibrating with window patterns but I've also been hunting for scenes where I can see clipping and tone mapping and want to understand the highlight pixel brightness level of these areas. Does that make sense and is it easy? In SDR I would just use snipping tool and MS Paint eyedropper tool to get RGB values but I dont think you can do that in HDR?
I think it begins and ends with the PQ(EOTF) curve. With tone mapping in the middle maintaining detail, with out it there is clipping. The highlights in clouds would most surely be pretty close to 4000 nits.

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post #719 of 759 Old 05-07-2017, 11:19 PM
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The highlights in clouds would most surely be pretty close to 4000 nits.
Yeah, thats exactly what I'm looking to confirm though.

I did some reading and what I'm looking for is a waveform scope software/plugin that can read hdr video. Davinci Studio and Premiere Pro can do this but they cost hundreds/thousands of dollars which is wayy to much for me to satisfy an idle curiosity.

10% window patterns only go so far w/ HDR calibration, I want to see what is getting clipped and tone mapped according to input level in a variety of scenes. But it seems it is not possible with free software unfortunately.
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post #720 of 759 Old 05-08-2017, 04:12 AM
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Yes, not above 600 nits, but above peak nits by way of a 10% window. Contrast contributes to cd/m2(nits), so yes even 2% windows. Instead of the nits, going lower for smaller windows, 600 nits should be sustained for highlights.

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Na, all it does is change when peak nits happens. If you go lower contrast our set will peak out higher in the grayscale. So for example say our set peaks at 500 nits at 60% grayscale in HDR10. If you lower the contrast to lets say 40, our set will hit 500nits at 70% grayscale instead.
This will be different with TVs that hit above 1000 peak nits. HDR10 is usually based on 1,000 nits so you would want to adjust the contrast so at 100% you are hitting 1,000 nits. Since our sets peak at 600nits if calibrated that way, you want to follow the PQ based on 1000 nits until 60% grayscale. Then the rest will just clip there and stay at 600nits from 60% to 100%.

Local dimming is what controls our small window peak nits. With FALD disabled its 600nits across the board.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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