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post #61 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Some others documents:

SMPTE: Study Group Report High-Dynamic-Range(HDR) Imaging Ecosystem

BT Media And Broadcast - Ultra High Definition Video Formats & Standardisation

Sony Explains HDR and Larger Color Space Monitors

We have Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) HDR also; a standard proposed by BBC & NHK which is supported also from the Association of Radio Industries and Businesses (ARIB):

A “Display Independent”High Dynamic Range Television System
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post #62 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
As I have argued previously, signal generators do not send out gamut-specific signals. A generator sends out full red (example) and color that appears as depends upon the physical properties of the display. If the display reaches is P3, then it will be a P3 red. If the display reaches out to 2020 (unlikely), then it will appear as a 2020 red. All you can do is plot the resulting measurements in the software and you can, of course, select 2020 as the target.

Tom, can you direct me to any reading material on this? I'm not refuting your argument, I'm trying to understand this because it hasn't been explained to me very well in the past. If the generator sends out "full red" as you say, I'm looking at the CIE chart and asking "what red"? What's defined as full red? Is there a defined xy? If it sends out full red, then would then our current generators be capable of being used to calibrate for any colour space including full 2020? (I'm using the Accupel DVG-5000 and a Konica-Minolta CS-1000A.)


I once thought that my generator wasn't sending out a gamut-specific signal. But then some experiences changed that and I began to think the generator was sending out 709 red (or 601 red if I select that option) and the display is making it appear in a way that is based on the physical properties/setup of the display. Recently I measured a display that was touted as 98% of P3. For fun I thought I'd see its claim. Yes, the most saturated points were about P3, but as I did a saturate sweep within the gamut, all other target points were matched to the sweep of 709 points. So either the TV is messed or the software I'm using isn't functioning with the Accupel correctly for P3 measurements or its an issue with the generator and P3 and even 2020 targets. This may be a discussion for another forum...
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post #63 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
ATM none of the 3 major GPU manufacturers (AMD, NVidia, Intel) have an API available that allows me to signal SMPTE 2084/86 to the display. As a result madVR currently limits itself to convert HDR content to a format all non-HDR displays can understand. That means I'm (properly!) converting HDR content to a conventional gamma curve, using an intelligent (non-clipping) tone mapping algorithm which can be adjusted by the user to the peak white capability of his display.
A problem with converting to a conventional gamma curve of course is bit depth, but since you are not trying to go all the way up to 10,000 nits you may be able to get away with it plus you can always throw some dithering at it.

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One major issue with HDR that I can see is that "external" calibration is becoming very very difficult because the *display* is going to do a lot of both gamut and lightness processing with unknown algorithms.
Yes, the HDR ecosystem expects displays to do this processing. It does make it very difficult for external calibration. By trying to introduce your own color management, you are effectively becoming part of the "display" from a system standpoint. The problem, as I think you understand, is that if television is still doing it's own processing in HDR mode then you have double processing occurring and the series of operations is not well suited to stacking additional color management at the front.

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How to calibrate a display for HDR content? IMHO the best approach would be to use test patterns that are encoded using SMPTE 2084/86, with similar metadata to what actual UHD Blu-Rays are going to use. That appears to be P3 gamut in a 2020 container, using either 1200nits or 4000nits peak luminance. Only this way we are calibrating the display with test patterns that are running through the exact display processing algorithms that are later going to be used for actual UHD Blu-Rays.
The danger in this is that you are counting on the algorithm being static. If it is dynamic, you can't expect to calibrate it around it.

One way to potentially get around the processing is to measure the tv's native gamut and give that to your software. You would then tone map the 2084 signal to stay entirely within that. The tv would remain in its UHD SMPTE 2084 / Rec. 2020 mode for all of this. Your software would generate and send a new set of 2086 metadata (effectively saying the mastering display is whatever the tv's measured gamut is), and then the tv should not do any additional processing to the image.
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post #64 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:29 AM
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An interesting read one of my post companies sent me. They're all in a spin to adapt as fast as possible, too.


Targeted at the production world, HDR Explained, Sony: https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/..._explained.pdf

(Edit: I just realized Ted posted the same above)

After reading this, I'm beginning to understand why there was a call to start UHD at 12 bits rather than 10, and why Joe Kane was going for 16 bits. That's a huge amount of data delivery with today's tech. There are so many limitations on the consumer end to make this possible today. But who knows what will happen 10-20 years down the road!
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post #65 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Capability CEA-861.3 HDR (High Dynamic Range) Info-frame settings will be required from a HDR capable pattern generator, to edit and send custom values of MaxCLL and MaxFall, to define the nits of Peak White, nits of Black Level, the Primaries used, White Point etc.

CEA Standard. HDR Static Metadata Extensions CEA-861.3. January 2015 (Preview)

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post #66 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Capability CEA-861.3 HDR (High Dynamic Range) Info-frame settings will be required from a HDR capable pattern generator, to edit and send custom values of MaxCLL and MaxFall, to define the nits of Peak White, nits of Black Level, the Primaries used, White Point etc.

CEA Standard. HDR Static Metadata Extensions CEA-861.3. January 2015 (Preview)
too clarify and clear the smoke in my brain,
does the pattern generator need encoded test patterns?
is that where the meta data reside?
SpectraCal HDR-10 UHD Test Pattern Set

the pattern generator need to set the TV mode to UHD HDR with handshake and then the test pattern does the rest?

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post #67 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
too clarify and clear the smoke in my brain,
does the pattern generator need encoded test patterns?
is that where the meta data reside?
SpectraCal HDR-10 UHD Test Pattern Set

the pattern generator need to set the TV mode to UHD HDR with handshake and then the test pattern does the rest?
Already encoded HDR video files are including that metadata info, but when you send a pattern using an external pattern generator via HDMI you have to send these HDR metadata info also. It's not just an enable/disable switch of HDR mode of a display that only required only. As Manni pointed that HD Fury Integral can insert that custom HDR metadata also than you can use current released 2160p pattern generators for that job (or 1080p pattern generator with an simple upscaller at it's output).

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post #68 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Capability CEA-861.3 HDR (High Dynamic Range) Info-frame settings will be required from a HDR capable pattern generator, to edit and send custom values of MaxCLL and MaxFall, to define the nits of Peak White, nits of Black Level, the Primaries used, White Point etc.

CEA Standard. HDR Static Metadata Extensions CEA-861.3. January 2015 (Preview)
You can do all this with an HD Fury Integral

I guess the issue lies more around the fact that calibration software - and pattern generators like MadTPG - don't fully support HDR10 yet. All this is already defined if a display supports Dolby Vision, and this information is made available by Dolby if the calibration software is licensed. Hopefully HDR10 support will happen when the standard for consumer playback delivery is defined/completed. Let's hope the UHD Alliance will help clarify the situation at CES in a few weeks.
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post #69 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Already encoded video files are including these metadata info, but when you send a pattern from an HDMI you have to send these metadata info also (for HDR mode which were talking) It's not just an enable/disable switch of HDR mode of a display that only required.
so that means,
yes?
generator puts the tv in HDR mode. tv expects video with metadata to define triplet values per that metadata that is encoded in the pattern.
thank you

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post #70 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
so that means,
yes?
generator puts the tv in HDR mode. tv expects video with metadata to define triplet values per that metadata that is encoded in the pattern.
thank you
Hi, I have edit my post, look above. Thanks.

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post #71 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
A problem with converting to a conventional gamma curve of course is bit depth, but since you are not trying to go all the way up to 10,000 nits you may be able to get away with it plus you can always throw some dithering at it.
True. Dithering is somewhat problematic (although it should *ALWAYS* be used, which unfortunately many encoding houses do not do) when applied before lossy encoding because it increases bitrate and the encoder throws some of the dithering away. But for lossless transport dithering works very well. So I don't think it's a big problem, especially not when using madVR's high quality dithering algorithms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
The danger in this is that you are counting on the algorithm being static. If it is dynamic, you can't expect to calibrate it around it.
True once more. I'm not sure how many displays are going to use dynamic tone mapping algorithms, though. I expect gamut compression/clipping to always be static, but tone mapping might be dynamic, if the display actually looks at maxFALL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
One way to potentially get around the processing is to measure the tv's native gamut and give that to your software. You would then tone map the 2084 signal to stay entirely within that. The tv would remain in its UHD SMPTE 2084 / Rec. 2020 mode for all of this. Your software would generate and send a new set of 2086 metadata (effectively saying the mastering display is whatever the tv's measured gamut is), and then the tv should not do any additional processing to the image.
Exactly my thoughts! Well, I want to give the user all the options. One option will be to convert to a conventional gamma curve. Another option will be to send the content untouched to the display, with all the original metadata. Another option will be what you just suggested, in the hope that it will avoid any further processing/compression by the display algorithms. But I can only offer the latter two options once AMD/NVidia/Intel provide me with APIs to signal 2084/86 with all the metadata to the display. For now I'm always converting to a conventional gamma curve, as a start.
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post #72 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post
Tom, can you direct me to any reading material on this? I'm not refuting your argument, I'm trying to understand this because it hasn't been explained to me very well in the past. If the generator sends out "full red" as you say, I'm looking at the CIE chart and asking "what red"? What's defined as full red? Is there a defined xy? If it sends out full red, then would then our current generators be capable of being used to calibrate for any colour space including full 2020? (I'm using the Accupel DVG-5000 and a Konica-Minolta CS-1000A.)


I once thought that my generator wasn't sending out a gamut-specific signal. But then some experiences changed that and I began to think the generator was sending out 709 red (or 601 red if I select that option) and the display is making it appear in a way that is based on the physical properties/setup of the display. Recently I measured a display that was touted as 98% of P3. For fun I thought I'd see its claim. Yes, the most saturated points were about P3, but as I did a saturate sweep within the gamut, all other target points were matched to the sweep of 709 points. So either the TV is messed or the software I'm using isn't functioning with the Accupel correctly for P3 measurements or its an issue with the generator and P3 and even 2020 targets. This may be a discussion for another forum...
That was just a feature of that particular display. What red, what xy, depends on the display's capabilities. If the display can render a full 2020 red, then that's what you will see. Yes, current generators are fine for wide gamut displays.

Now there is another issue that would require a generator upgrade, and that is the HDR spec, which requires metadata. However, that's a separate issue from just the gamut.

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post #73 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 11:12 AM
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is it safe to say that 709 and 2020 can use static triplet patterns
but HDR needs video encoded with metadata and the pattern is
a moving pattern that appears static?

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post #74 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
is it safe to say that 709 and 2020 can use static triplet patterns
but HDR needs video encoded with metadata and the pattern is
a moving pattern that appears static?
Yes, but it's unknown if a specific display, when it will see REC2020 flag in stream; if this can force that display to enter to a different mode which automatically selects it's native gamut (or modified from factory) and a BT1886 factory preset gamma.....which will make it it easier (less adjustments of control values) to calibrate using it's available internal calibration controls.

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post #75 of 754 Old 12-27-2015, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes, but it's unknown if a specific display, when it will see REC2020 flag in stream; if this can force that display to enter to a different mode which automatically selects it's native gamut (or modified from factory) and a BT1886 factory preset gamma.....which will make it it easier (less adjustments of control values) to calibrate using it's available internal calibration controls.
thank you.
all kinds of unknowns about display modes as already written.
I am beginning to see, a little LOL

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post #76 of 754 Old 12-28-2015, 09:33 AM
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CEA's definition of an HDR display from http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...80%99-Displays

CEA’s Video Division Board approved the following definition:

A TV, monitor or projector may be referred to as a HDR Compatible Display if it meets the following minimum attributes:
  • Includes at least one interface that supports HDR signaling as defined in CEA-861-F, as extended by CEA-861.3.
  • Receives and processes static HDR metadata compliant with CEA-861.3 for uncompressed video.
  • Receives and processes HDR10 Media Profile* from IP, HDMI or other video delivery sources. Additionally, other media profiles may be supported.
  • Applies an appropriate Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF), before rendering the image.
* Note: HDR10 Media Profile is defined as:
  • EOTF: SMPTE ST 2084
  • Color Sub-sampling: 4:2:0 (for compressed video sources)
  • Bit Depth: 10 bit
  • Color Primaries: ITU-R BT.2020
  • Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL
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post #77 of 754 Old 12-28-2015, 10:04 AM
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I talked with Quantum Data this morning. They said all I have to do is a new firmware update on my current QD780 (old version) and I could use my existing QD780 with the latest calMAN 5.6.1 (I have the business/ultimate version) to "HDR calibrate" my JVC RS-600 ... I'm still waiting for my JVC projector to arrive. To clarify, I don't have to hardware upgrade my 780, just do a simple firmware upgrade. QD said it is the info frames that turns on HDR (among other things) ... and the info frame structure is well known. It's what information that goes into the info frame that's the bugger. Stacey Spears is leading spectracal's efforts to define that information. Everything sounds very fluid (subject to change) ... it will be interesting to see how well it works ... work in progress.


Here's the QD announcement: http://www.quantumdata.com/news/article95.asp


SpectraCal and Quantum Data Partner to Provide HDR Support






Solution offers test patterns for High Dynamic Range





Seattle WA - Dec 8, 2015 - Seattle software developer SpectraCal, Inc., has partnered with Quantum Data™, global leader in video test pattern generators and analyzers, to provide test pattern support for HDR-10 High Dynamic Range (HDR) displays.


“High Dynamic Range is the most important development in video since the high definition TV.” remarked SpectraCal’s Chief Color Scientist Stacey Spears. “With the rapid growth of HDR, objective measurements of video performance have never been more crucial.” Spears continued.

Developers from SpectraCal and Quantum Data worked together closely to ensure that Quantum Data’s hardware and SpectraCal’s software would jointly support emerging standards in HDR.

“HDR-10 requires new signaling mechanisms to support HDR-10 metadata over HDMI.” stated John Burt, Senior Applications Engineer, who facilitated the HDR-10 efforts for Quantum Data.

“The speed with which Quantum Data was able to support the HDR test solution given the abstruse signaling requirements of HDR-10, underscores the strength of their design.” said Spears.

Quantum Data’s VP of Sales and Marketing, Chuck Evans commenting on SpectraCal’s important role in the industry, remarked, “SpectraCal has been leading the way in video calibration software since the company was founded. Their effort in bringing HDR-10 support to the market is just the latest example of their leadership, and Quantum Data is delighted to have been involved.”

Support for HDR-10 patterns is available in Version 5.6.1 of SpectraCal’s CalMAN software, the most widely used video calibration software in the world.
“You can use a Quantum Data 780 to send HDR-10 metadata from CalMAN 5.6.1 today.” said Spears.
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post #78 of 754 Old 12-28-2015, 07:57 PM
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CEA's definition of an HDR display from http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...80%99-Displays

CEA’s Video Division Board approved the following definition:

A TV, monitor or projector may be referred to as a HDR Compatible Display if it meets the following minimum attributes:
  • Includes at least one interface that supports HDR signaling as defined in CEA-861-F, as extended by CEA-861.3.
  • Receives and processes static HDR metadata compliant with CEA-861.3 for uncompressed video.
  • Receives and processes HDR10 Media Profile* from IP, HDMI or other video delivery sources. Additionally, other media profiles may be supported.
  • Applies an appropriate Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF), before rendering the image.
* Note: HDR10 Media Profile is defined as:
  • EOTF: SMPTE ST 2084
  • Color Sub-sampling: 4:2:0 (for compressed video sources)
  • Bit Depth: 10 bit
  • Color Primaries: ITU-R BT.2020
  • Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL
The EOTF from SMPTE 2084 requires 10,000 nits at 100%, which NO display currently supports. Virtually no display supports Rec. 2020. This does not answer any of the critical questions that must be answered before HDR support can become widely adopted.

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post #79 of 754 Old 12-28-2015, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
CEA's definition of an HDR display from http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...80%99-Displays

CEA’s Video Division Board approved the following definition:

A TV, monitor or projector may be referred to as a HDR Compatible Display if it meets the following minimum attributes:
  • Includes at least one interface that supports HDR signaling as defined in CEA-861-F, as extended by CEA-861.3.
  • Receives and processes static HDR metadata compliant with CEA-861.3 for uncompressed video.
  • Receives and processes HDR10 Media Profile* from IP, HDMI or other video delivery sources. Additionally, other media profiles may be supported.
  • Applies an appropriate Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF), before rendering the image.
* Note: HDR10 Media Profile is defined as:
  • EOTF: SMPTE ST 2084
  • Color Sub-sampling: 4:2:0 (for compressed video sources)
  • Bit Depth: 10 bit
  • Color Primaries: ITU-R BT.2020
  • Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL
The key phrase here is "HDR Compatible". Compatibility means it can understand an HDR signal but does not guarantee that the image reproduction is HDR. You could have a 100 nits peak display with 709 gamut (essentially a standard HD display) and so long as it has the appropriate input and electronics architecture it qualifies as HDR compatible. Don't get fooled. CEA did not define what it means for a display to be HDR, only what it means to be compatible.
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post #80 of 754 Old 12-29-2015, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
The key phrase here is "HDR Compatible". Compatibility means it can understand an HDR signal but does not guarantee that the image reproduction is HDR. You could have a 100 nits peak display with 709 gamut (essentially a standard HD display) and so long as it has the appropriate input and electronics architecture it qualifies as HDR compatible. Don't get fooled. CEA did not define what it means for a display to be HDR, only what it means to be compatible.
This offers a definition of compatibility. The itemized elements in that definition include a SMPTE 2084 EOTF and Rec. 2020 gamut. By this definition, no current displays will be compatible. I don't know how else to read this.

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post #81 of 754 Old 12-29-2015, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
This offers a definition of compatibility. The itemized elements in that definition include a SMPTE 2084 EOTF and Rec. 2020 gamut. By this definition, no current displays will be compatible. I don't know how else to read this.



Tom, rec2020 is a container. You can display content mastered in P3 encoded with rec2020 primaries on a P3 capable display using rec2020 saturations.
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post #82 of 754 Old 12-29-2015, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
This offers a definition of compatibility. The itemized elements in that definition include a SMPTE 2084 EOTF and Rec. 2020 gamut. By this definition, no current displays will be compatible. I don't know how else to read this.
2084 and Rec. 2020 are properties of the media profile. The display is required to receive and process video conforming to that profile, but it is not required to have a native Rec. 2020 gamut nor match 2084 all the way up to 10,000 nits. That means so long as it can accept the video and metadata (basically, if it can handshake with a CEA-861.3 source) it is "HDR compatible". If you want to know what qualifies as an actual "HDR" display as it pertains to image reproduction, it isn't defined here.

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post #83 of 754 Old 12-29-2015, 04:48 AM
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CEA is both a political and technical organization comprised of many display related companies to promote their common interests. What "HDR compatible" means is a lowest common denominator among these companies and their own self interest.

Per http://www.cta.tech/i3/Innovate/2014...-at-Forum.aspx , CEA has a subcommittee (DTV Interface Subcommittee) which exchanges advanced information about Digital TV, including HDR (Sept/2014):

"The DTV Interface Subcommittee launched new projects to establish several extensions to CEA-861-F,the basis for HDMI. One extension will define support forhigh frame rate video formats. Another will define support for5K native video formats. Others will address signaling for colorspaces and high dynamic range, support for object-based audio, andnew data blocks for native display device and native video formats(greater than 4095 pixels)."

As we know, CEA-861.3 is that extension you are looking for.

Per http://www.cta.tech/Standards/Commit...Interface.aspx , here's the definition of their committee.


"The DTV Interface Subcommittee (a.k.a R4.8) is a subcommittee of the Video Systems Committee. The DTV Interface Subcommittee establishes standards and guidelines for RF, analog and digital interfaces for the purpose of defining connectivity and interoperability among analog/digital TV receivers and other consumer devices that deliver analog and digital A/V and other digital data services. Current standards efforts includes addressing cable TV receiver interface requirements and defining DTV transport and content coding formats for interoperability of digital audio and video."


You'll find a list of companies that are members/participate on this committee. JVC, Samsung, LG, Sony, Dolby ... and Quantum Data! I just happened to own a QD780, so I looked them up and talked to John Burt who emailed me the firmware update for HDR.

Perhaps Tom H./Greg Rodgers can talk with Quantum Data and find out how this meta data with info frames works. Lots of QD 780s out there running being used by Chromapure and calMAN. Pls let us know what you find out.

JJ

***********
Here's a list of companies on this committee, including AT&T where I worked for nearly 25 years in their R&D, Bell Labs/Lucent:

1394 Trade Association
Advanced Micro Devices
AGP, LLC
Analogix Semiconductor
Apple Inc.
ARRIS
AT&T Inc
AwoX
Belkin Corporation
Broadcom Corporation
Cable Television Labs
CBS Corp.
CEDIA
Charter Communications
Cisco Systems, Inc
Comcast Cable
Company for Individuals
Cox Media Group, Inc.
DIRECTV Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.



DTS, Inc.
  • Echelon Corporation
  • EchoStar Satellite, L.L.C.
  • Ericsson
  • Ford Motor Company
  • Funai Corporation
  • Hitachi
  • Home Box Office (HBO)
  • Intel Corporation
  • JVC Kenwood
  • Kyra Corporation
  • LG Electronics
  • Microsoft Corporation
  • Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America
  • Motion Picture Association of America
  • Nagravision
  • National Cable Telecommunications Assoc.
  • Nielsen
  • P Thomsen Consulting
  • Panamorph
  • Panasonic Corporation
  • Peerless Industries, Inc.
  • Philips Electronics N.A. Corp.
  • PPC
  • Qualcomm Incorporated
  • Quantum Data, Inc.
  • Rovi Corporation
  • Samsung Electronics
  • SanDisk IL Ltd
  • Sharp Electronics Corporation
  • Sony Electronics Inc.
  • Technicolor
  • Toshiba
  • TP Vision Holding B.V.
  • VOXX International
  • W W Johnston Technologies, LLC
  • WJR Consulting
  • XOCECO USA

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post #84 of 754 Old 12-30-2015, 04:04 PM
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In case you have not seen this yet, Tom Schulte wrote a nice summary of HDR including UHD market, UHD key features, sources for 4K HDR material and HDR test set up .... even though its focused on the marketing SPectracal's C6 meter. He confirms the test generator, like the QD780, communicates with the display via ST 2086 meta data for calibration:

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...20C6%20HDR.pdf

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post #85 of 754 Old 12-31-2015, 02:37 AM
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There are 2 sources now that point to CEA861.3 as the source for ST 2086 metadata btwn devices.


Look at pages 16 and 17 of the Blu Ray's White Paper on the Overview of the Ultra HD Blu Ray Spec: http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_150724.pdf


It points to CEA861.3 for more detail information about ST 2086 metadata per:


"The above metadata (SMPTE 2086, MaxCLL and MaxFALL) is stored in a PlayList file in the same
format as defined in CEA specifications. See CEA861.3 for more information about the format of this
metadata and the calculation of MaxCLL and MaxFALL values. BDA also defines “BD-ROM Part3
Guidelines for Content Authors and Player Implemeters” as a part of BD-ROM Part3 V3.0 and the book
describes the guidelines for the above metadata values."


Also note on page 16 the max APL for HDR (for the next 2 years) is 400 nits:


"MaxFALL indicates the maximum value of the frame average light level, in units of 1 cd/m2, in entire
playback sequence of the BDMV HDR video streams in the PlayList. HDR content for Ultra HD Blu-ray
will be created while considering the authoring guideline that the MaxFALL should not exceed 400
cd/m2(for the first two years from the start of this format license)."


JJ

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post #86 of 754 Old 01-02-2016, 09:51 AM
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If I had to guess how to HDR calibrate the JVC projector, I would force JVC's gamma = D for HDR (EOTF = PQ) and calibrate the JVC "Reference" Pic Mode to the RGB sat coordinates of DCI P3, D65, Ymax=50 nits ... and insure that the final calibration does not have 100nits clipped and the 3D color space above 50nits is as linear as possible. I may have to come up with a couple of different PQ curves and see what the best match is between how the HDR ecosystem of the source material matches that of the projector. 10bit test patterns would be needed, especially due to the compression of the HDR source material highlights (via PQ roll off) due to limitations of luminance in Home displays and projectors. I would hope they would provide a 100nit graded version for HDR Home Projectors like they did for the Dolby Vision HDR commercial projectors. Otherwise, the PQ curve will have to "smoothly exclude with min artifacts" much of the highlights above 100nits and deal with a dimmer picture.

A "dimmer picture" is a possible "grading correction" in the source material itself to help Home HDR display devices to smoothly roll off (via PQ) the highlight image material above above the display's capability (100nits for projectors). See page 16 of https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-Ecosystem.pdf

"Content in larger color volumes present in HDR/WCG requires tone and chroma compression to 'fit' within a smaller volume. The effect of these changes can also affect the appearance of the image as a whole, and slight overall adjustments such as a small contrast boost or a change in saturation are often necessary to maintain the desired creative appearance of the original. Some compromises have to be accepted. For example, compression of bright colors into a SDR display can cause strong desaturation of bright colors which can go completely neutral. Depending upon the overall details in the scene, a colorist could choose to darken the relative values of the whole scene to retain some color in bright areas."

I've seen on p39 of the JVC Owners manual that if you have a dimmer picture due to selecting Gamma "D" (gamma D = PQ for HDR), just increase the levels of "Picture Tone", "Bright Level" and "Dark Level". NOTE: This may counteract what the colorist was trying to attempt by providing a darker scene ... to provide more color in the highlights. These source material graded corrections are forcing Calibrators to be aware of what the colorist's intent was. This is due to production and post-production being well ahead of display technology and the colorists are trying to correct for this when they grade the source material. See p. 39 which describe the HDR film "emma" which was filmed in 2014 : https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-Ecosystem.pdf


" To date (2014) there is no theatrical grade in HDR for the complete composition, which was one of the main goals of the project. Most of this is due to the fact that this production has run way ahead of the display equipment specifically the projection display devices."


I believe what we are seeing is a fundamental change in the calibration industry from what we know in THX and ISF calibration ... we are starting to overlap into commercial grade calibration where we need to know more about what an HDR picture "should" look like ... from a colorist's perspective, in addition to all the standards which we normally go by, in order to provide the best scientifically calibrated picture. This is being forced upon us due to production and post-production being well ahead of Home display and projector technologies.


JJ


********


P.S. The latest version of the JVC RS600 owner's manual is at: http://books.jvc.com/Download/621632963/B5A-1144-0D.pdf ... if this link does not work, google "DLA-RS600u Owner's Manual" then go through the necessary steps to get to its location on the JVC web site)
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post #87 of 754 Old 01-03-2016, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
the UHD Alliance is expected to make an announcement in a few weeks at CES to clarify the consumer HDR standard. Let's hope that they are going to fill all the gaps, and either announce a completed HDR10 standard, or select a properly defined standard such as Dolby Vision.
Industry insiders have told HD Guru that the specification-setting process has dragged on through much of the year, in part, because of disagreements over HDR brightness ranges between LED LCD TV manufacturers and LG and OLED component suppliers, which are championing the needs of OLED TV technology.
Due to inherent technology differences – OLED panels are emissive and generate their own light while LCD TVs are transmissive and require LED back or edge lighting to create a picture — 4K Ultra HD LED LCD TVs and OLED TVs display HDR using different degrees of brightness and darkness.
LCD TVs are capable of higher brightness levels (more than 1,000 nits in some cases) than most OLED display devices, while OLED TVs are capable of achieving “absolute black levels,” because they can completely shut off light at the pixel level. The best LED TVs can do is locally dim zones of LED backlights to near black but not the absolute blackness generated in OLED displays.
Therefore, the two technologies come at HDR from different directions. OLED starts at black and works up 14 to 15 camera f-stops of light (steps of increasing brightness) in the HDR spectrum. LED TVs start at maximum brightness they can generate and work down the 15 stops to the lowest level of black they can achieve.
One of the issues UHDA members have faced is how to arrive at a standard that will satisfy both approaches. Stay tuned for the solution.


http://hdguru.com/uhd-alliance-sets-...ces-unveiling/

It will be interesting to see what the UHD Alliance spec will detail, whether it will "fill in all the gaps" as you so kindly put it, it remains to be seen.
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post #88 of 754 Old 01-05-2016, 01:03 AM
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...and here are the final specs: http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...ent-Experience

Re HDR, flat panels in living rooms seem well covered, but they seem to have forgotten about projectors in dedicated, light controlled rooms, which isn't surprising. Hopefully they'll add a third set of specs for these later on.

HDR10 confirmed as the minimal standard, and with Technicolor stepping out of the ring and embracing the new standard, that leaves Dolby Vision pretty lonely, but I guess it should remain as an option.

Here you go...


Devices



The UHD Alliance supports various display technologies and consequently, have defined combinations of parameters to ensure a premium experience across a wide range of devices. In order to receive the UHD Alliance Premium Logo, the device must meet or exceed the following specifications:
  • Image Resolution: 3840x2160
  • Color Bit Depth: 10-bit signal
  • Color Palette (Wide Color Gamut)
    • Signal Input: BT.2020 color representation
    • Display Reproduction: More than 90% of P3 colors
  • High Dynamic Range
    • SMPTE ST2084 EOTF
    • A combination of peak brightness and black level either:
      • More than 1000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05 nits black level
        OR
      • More than 540 nits peak brightness and less than 0.0005 nits black level
Distribution



Any distribution channel delivering the UHD Alliance content must support
  • Image Resolution: 3840x2160
  • Color Bit Depth: Minimum 10-bit signal
  • Color: BT.2020 color representation
  • High Dynamic Range: SMPTE ST2084 EOTF
Content Master
  • The UHD Alliance Content Master must meet the following requirements:
  • Image Resolution: 3840x2160
  • Color Bit Depth: Minimum 10-bit signal
  • Color: BT.2020 color representation
  • High Dynamic Range: SMPTE ST2084 EOTF
The UHD Alliance recommends the following mastering display specifications:
  • Display Reproduction: Minimum 100% of P3 colors
  • Peak Brightness: More than 1000 nits
  • Black Level: Less than 0.03 nits

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post #89 of 754 Old 01-05-2016, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Devices
Display Reproduction: More than 90% of P3 colors

mastering display specifications:
Display Reproduction: Minimum 100% of P3 colors
Seems the UHD Alliance is quite P3 centric, in terms of both end user and mastering display color reproduction. Which IMHO suggests that it might not be a bad idea to put priority on getting P3 spot on during calibration, at least for first generation HDR content and displays.
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post #90 of 754 Old 01-05-2016, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
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Seems the UHD Alliance is quite P3 centric, in terms of both end user and mastering display color reproduction. Which IMHO suggests that it might not be a bad idea to put priority on getting P3 spot on during calibration, at least for first generation HDR content and displays.
The UHD Alliance only mentions P3 as a minimum. It doesn't say anything about content mastered on a wider than P3 gamut or whether we should use P3 saturations or rec2020 saturations, even when the content was mastered at P3 or close to P3.

Honestly I have no opinion on all this anymore. I'll let the various expert argue and debate about this until a consensus is - hopefully - reached. As long as I get an accurate and not hobbled, clipped or poorly converted reproduction on my display, I'm happy either way.

As my next display will likely be unable to reach wider than P3, its of little consequence for me. But if I had a display able to reach close to rec2020, as some consumer flat panels are, and if say a movie like Inside Out, which was mastered on a gamut larger than P3 for its cinema release AFAIK, was also released on UHD Bluray with wider a than P3 grading, I'd like to be able to make the most of it without any down conversion or clipping.

If there are more examples like this over the next year or so, users with displays able to reach wider than P3 might want that too.

Right now, I've left this ring and I'm waiting for the mastering and calibration dust to settle.
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