The Official ChromaPure 3 thread - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 1252 Old 08-04-2017, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
I am having some issues with the software and am wondering if it is a user error during my calibrations.

I will run a white balance (21pt) calibration then use the gamma tab to adjust the luminance on my OLED to correct the gamma. I'll then go back to the white balance to make any corrections then go back to the gamma tab all while keeping an eye on the delta errors. If they look good and the gamma is somewhat tracking I'll stop there (slight curve up to ~2.4 at 95%).

The weird thing I am experiencing is I'll go to the post greyscale tab so I can generate a report for comparisons and the gamma curve is the exact opposite as it was in the gamma tab. It will track well for 0-45% then start tracking downward towards 1.4 (complete mirror image as the gamma curve in the gamma tab)? I'm confused am I not using the software in the correct order. Should I be using the post greyscale tab to correct gamma in stead of the gamma tab in the calibration section?

Before each full run I will measure the white 100% because that seems to have an affect on the rest of the gamma curve even if the white balance is only +/- 5 nits.

Each time I do a white balance, gamma, or post cal greyscale measurement I use the same patterns 5%-100%. Should I not be doing this?
I cannot repeat what you report. I have attached a screenshot of the Gamma and Grayscale gamma curves. They are not "the exact opposite". They are virtually identical.

See my comment below about including data with error reports.
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File Type: jpg grayscale-gamma1.jpg (56.0 KB, 38 views)

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post #1112 of 1252 Old 08-04-2017, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
I opened up my file from last night and the gamma tab, white balance, and post calibration greyscale is out of wack.

I can't seem to get consistent measurements using this software. I made no changes to my settings but the gamma comparison from white balance does not match up with the post cal grey scale gamma.

Just out of curiosity I compared the same settings to HFCR and it showed the same results I had settled on the night before. Which is what I expected to see when I just wanted to update a report to correlate to my gamma curve.

Not sure what's going on.
I am begging you. Please provide data or a screenshot. I cannot help with simple vague, subjective descriptions. I see no discrepancies here.

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post #1113 of 1252 Old 08-04-2017, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ips View Post
Out of interest, did the HCFR results match the ChromaPure gamma or post calibration greyscale tab or neither?


The HFCR results were very similar to the same post cal greyscale/gamma curve I had settled on with the chromapure the night before.

Today totally different results when doing a greyscale gamma run (again just trying to get a complete report) with chromapure. I did not make any adjustments in the settings

That's why I tried the greyscale run with HFCR to see if it was my adjustments that were the issue. But I hit a similar delta error and gamma curve (I had ran a report prior to closing the chromapure software) with HFCR.

Possibly a bug because the white balance and post greyscale gammas do not match when ran sequentially with no adjustments made


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post #1114 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 12:43 AM
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here are a couple of snips. The post cal does not match the white balance
Attached Thumbnails
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post #1115 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
here are a couple of snips. The post cal does not match the white balance
1. The two white balance screenshots you show are both for 100% (In fact, they seem to be duplicates of the same screen). There is no gamma 100%. It is the reference from which gamma is calculated.
2. The grayscale screenshot you attached does not show 100% at all. It shows 95%.

The net result is that there is nothing to compare here.

Show a screenshot from, say, 50% in both grayscale and another module. Use 12pt just so more information can be captured in the screenshot. Ensure that you include the 100% value in addition to the 50% level in both cases.

Finally, be clear about what it is we are supposed to compare--Gamma values or dE values.

IF you would prefer not to do screenshots, then just type the values.

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post #1116 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 07:53 AM
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The Official ChromaPure 3 thread

Ok lets try this instead. Here are the exports of the runs. I'm not sure what you mean by only going up to 95% on the post cal grey scale I run 100,0,5 through 95 and that is all the program lets me do.



In the order I ran them

Post cal grey scale

gamma

white balance

Post cal grey scale (after)

HFCR grey scale sheet



This calibration still needs some work just trying to figure out what module to make the corrections in since they appear to not all be correlating with each other.



I can watch the spears and munsil demo material and it looks good so I know the settings that I originally measured read correctly.

The gamma values from the white balance and gamma module are not matching the gamma values in the post greyscale which needs to be ran to generate the report.
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post #1117 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
here are a couple of snips. The post cal does not match the white balance
Jay:

When comparing results from one module to another are you remembering to take a 100% white reading each time you switch to another module? This is an important detail that was tripping me up when I first started using CP3....

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post #1118 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 09:12 AM
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The Official ChromaPure 3 thread

Yes I've noticed that the 100% white value can vary which can effect the overall curves/readings. I'm trying to figure out if I need to ignore the gamma or the post calibration readings. If the white balance and the gamma readings are ok then the grayscale should be ok, however the post grayscale graph and gamma readings aren't lining up.

So what I had been doing was doing a white balance, gamma to set it up and the post grey scale would be off so I'd make adjustments based on that then the gamma would be off in the calibration tab. I'd enter a vicious cycle of back and forth.


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post #1119 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
Yes I've noticed that the 100% white value can vary which can effect the overall curves/readings.
This is really all we need to know about this series of posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
I'm trying to figure out if I need to ignore the gamma or the post calibration readings.
You shouldn't ignore anything.
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If the white balance and the gamma readings are ok then the grayscale should be ok, however the post grayscale graph and gamma readings aren't lining up.
See above. You have already answered your own question. They don't line up, because the display has a floating white point. Your measurements are just capturing that.

I have spent quite a bit of time analyzing the data you attached in a previous post, because I think it makes an important point, not just for you but for everyone. I used the raw data to calculate gamma and dE.



As you can see, the gamma from these two modules line up quite nicely until about 70%, where they start the diverge. The differences in dE are negligible. This is because the 100% white reference from the sets of readings are different, 162.3, and 158.6. Gamma is a very sensitive metric. Even small changes in 100% will change the gamma value at the top end.



It is the same story with the Gamma and Grayscale Before modules. 100% is 161.1 and 158.9, respectively.

HCFR shows exactly the same thing.



Of the six data sets you included, the white value ranged from 153.7 to 177.5 with predictable results in gamma.

When designing ChromaPure 3, we tried to accommodate this by employing three white points, pre, post, and calibration. So the measured white point is independent for the pre-cal grayscale and color gamut modules and the post-cal versions also. However, the calibration modules--white balance, gamma, and color management--use the same white point, which means that once you measure 100% in, say, white balance then once you shift to gamma or color management you should notice that the white value is already filled in. There is no need to measure it again.

The important point of all of this is two-fold.

First, pay careful attention to the measurements--not just the graphs, but the underlying data as well. If the data changes, then the graphs will change.

Second, please remember that the test equipment is here to evaluate the performance of the display, not vice-versa. Don't use the display as a reference against which you evaluate the performance of the software. If you get different readings then that probably means that the display is outputting different values. This data told you something about your display--that it has an unstable white point--but you were more focused upon what the different readings revealed about the software.

When there are problems with the software, which of course can happen, this usually reveals itself in the form of missing, incomplete, or contradictory data (If you had different gamma values between two sets of identical measurements, then THAT would be a problem).

BTW, an unstable white point is especially a problem with the LG OLEDs due to their anti-image retention circuitry. LED LCDs are much more immune from this. Unfortuantely OLED produces a nicer image. You just have to be careful when calibrating. I would recommend rapidly cycling RGB test patterns before taking a white reading, and don't stay on any one test pattern for more than 30-40 seconds before cycling again.
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post #1120 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
This is really all we need to know about this series of posts. You shouldn't ignore anything.
See above. You have already answered your own question. They don't line up, because the display has a floating white point. Your measurements are just capturing that.

I have spent quite a bit of time analyzing the data you attached in a previous post, because I think it makes an important point, not just for you but for everyone. I used the raw data to calculate gamma and dE.



As you can see, the gamma from these two modules line up quite nicely until about 70%, where they start the diverge. The differences in dE are negligible. This is because the 100% white reference from the sets of readings are different, 162.3, and 158.6. Gamma is a very sensitive metric. Even small changes in 100% will change the gamma value at the top end.



It is the same story with the Gamma and Grayscale Before modules. 100% is 161.1 and 158.9, respectively.

HCFR shows exactly the same thing.



Of the six data sets you included, the white value ranged from 153.7 to 177.5 with predictable results in gamma.

When designing ChromaPure 3, we tried to accommodate this by employing three white points, pre, post, and calibration. So the measured white point is independent for the pre-cal grayscale and color gamut modules and the post-cal versions also. However, the calibration modules--white balance, gamma, and color management--use the same white point, which means that once you measure 100% in, say, white balance then once you shift to gamma or color management you should notice that the white value is already filled in. There is no need to measure it again.

The important point of all of this is two-fold.

First, pay careful attention to the measurements--not just the graphs, but the underlying data as well. If the data changes, then the graphs will change.

Second, please remember that the test equipment is here to evaluate the performance of the display, not vice-versa. Don't use the display as a reference against which you evaluate the performance of the software. If you get different readings then that probably means that the display is outputting different values. This data told you something about your display--that it has an unstable white point--but you were more focused upon what the different readings revealed about the software.

When there are problems with the software, which of course can happen, this usually reveals itself in the form of missing, incomplete, or contradictory data (If you had different gamma values between two sets of identical measurements, then THAT would be a problem).

BTW, an unstable white point is especially a problem with the LG OLEDs due to their anti-image retention circuitry. LED LCDs are much more immune from this. Unfortuantely OLED produces a nicer image. You just have to be careful when calibrating. I would recommend rapidly cycling RGB test patterns before taking a white reading, and don't stay on any one test pattern for more than 30-40 seconds before cycling again.


Thanks Tom! I appreciate you looking into this.

When measuring whites I try to get a reading as quick as possible so the ABL doesn't kick in. I will cycle through test patterns prior to measuring whites now.

So Could the floating whites I am experiencing be due to the original white point I set by adjusting RGB values is not correct and need further adjustment? Or is this just going to be an inherent problem that isn't able to be stabilized with the OLED?



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post #1121 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
Thanks Tom! I appreciate you looking into this.

When measuring whites I try to get a reading as quick as possible so the ABL doesn't kick in. I will cycle through test patterns prior to measuring whites now.

So Could the floating whites I am experiencing be due to the original white point I set by adjusting RGB values is not correct and need further adjustment? Or is this just going to be an inherent problem that isn't able to be stabilized with the OLED?
It is an inherent problem, but it can be substantially mitigated by the RGB cycling I referred to.
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post #1122 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 12:55 PM
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Hi Tom

About how far off is 2020HDR auto cal with the Lumagen? Thanks
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post #1123 of 1252 Old 08-05-2017, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tom

About how far off is 2020HDR auto cal with the Lumagen? Thanks
3.1.6 will be out in a week or two. We start working on 3.2 after that, which will have 2020HDR auto cal.

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post #1124 of 1252 Old 08-06-2017, 03:08 AM
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Hi Tom, I haven't got back calibrating yet, but I just bought a Sony A1 over a LG in the hope to avoid ABL issues while calibrating. In your experience was I sadly deluded in my hopes, or did I make a good choice?
Many thanks
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post #1125 of 1252 Old 08-06-2017, 03:52 AM
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Hi @TomHuffman , could you please reply to my question below? Or has this been answered/discussed before? In that case could you please give me a reference so I can read up on it? Thanks!

P.S. The LG PF1000/1500 is a DLP cinema projector with a LED light engine.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Just a quick question: what mode (and why) should one select for the Spyder 5 when calibrating a LG PF1000/1500?

Available values in the "Initial Setup" tab are:
DC_STANDARD
DC_WG_CCFL
DC_WG_CCFL2
DC_WG_RGBLED

Thanks!

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Tom,

Thanks for you help with the OLED calibration. Although it is a work in progress I was able to achieve a calibration that will let me watch tv for a few days before diving back in to try something new. It allowed me to tolerate dark scenes in GOT. My F8500 was a breeze to calibrate and had consistent results with all the modules.

I have a couple of general questions regarding the OLED whites.

Since the whites fluctuate so much is it better to calibrate to the peak of the whites just before the ABL kicks in or more of the mean of between the initial reading and the final reading (just before ABL kick in)?

Or does it matter as long as you calibrate to a consistent white value?

Also I did not notice anywhere we can adjust the white point in Rec.709 for metemeric failure of the OLED. Is this available now or in a future update?

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post #1127 of 1252 Old 08-07-2017, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
Tom,

Thanks for you help with the OLED calibration. Although it is a work in progress I was able to achieve a calibration that will let me watch tv for a few days before diving back in to try something new. It allowed me to tolerate dark scenes in GOT. My F8500 was a breeze to calibrate and had consistent results with all the modules.

I have a couple of general questions regarding the OLED whites.

Since the whites fluctuate so much is it better to calibrate to the peak of the whites just before the ABL kicks in or more of the mean of between the initial reading and the final reading (just before ABL kick in)?

Or does it matter as long as you calibrate to a consistent white value?

Also I did not notice anywhere we can adjust the white point in Rec.709 for metemeric failure of the OLED. Is this available now or in a future update?
Sounds like ABL is tripping you up. That's the feature where the picture dims almost immediately due to using a very bright pattern (or content) that fills the screen. If you're using 25% window patterns and below, you're probably not engaging ABL. There is also ASBL (anti static brightness limiter) where if the image, content, pattern or whatever stays displayed, it'll start getting darker(you usually can enter the service menu to turn that off). On the 06 LG OLEDs, it seems that it'd take something like 30 or 40 seconds for ASBL to engage unless you turn it off. Then if that's not enough, there is a phenomenon, don't think a name has been given to it yet where when you display a pattern, after about 10 seconds, it begins to get brighter. So...drum roll, if you display a pattern that engages ABL (say a full screen 100% white) ABL, dims it, then after 10 seconds un named thing brightens it, then in about 40 seconds ASBL dims it. Now you have to admit, if it wasn't making you crazy, it'd be funny. As long as you do the work arounds, it won't make you as crazy but still a little crazy.
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Sounds like ABL is tripping you up. That's the feature where the picture dims almost immediately due to using a very bright pattern (or content) that fills the screen. If you're using 25% window patterns and below, you're probably not engaging ABL. There is also ASBL (anti static brightness limiter) where if the image, content, pattern or whatever stays displayed, it'll start getting darker(you usually can enter the service menu to turn that off). On the 06 LG OLEDs, it seems that it'd take something like 30 or 40 seconds for ASBL to engage unless you turn it off. Then if that's not enough, there is a phenomenon, don't think a name has been given to it yet where when you display a pattern, after about 10 seconds, it begins to get brighter. So...drum roll, if you display a pattern that engages ABL (say a full screen 100% white) ABL, dims it, then after 10 seconds un named thing brightens it, then in about 40 seconds ASBL dims it. Now you have to admit, if it wasn't making you crazy, it'd be funny. As long as you do the work arounds, it won't make you as crazy but still a little crazy.
Thanks for the clarification on ABL vs ASBL. It is the ASBL that I was referring too. So If I turn the ASBL in the service menu will the additional "phenomenon" still be present? Can you access the service menu without having the specialized remote? I would then turn it back on after I am done.

This make it hard to target a specific nit value. So I would range from 163-172 (before ASBL kicked in) I settled on 168.5 to start my calibration and made sure each time I measured white I would see the value at 168.5 before I proceeded. The reasoning is when I would move from module to module sometimes the initial value was higher than 163 so I thought a value somewhere in the middle would be the right choice (or at least solve the potential broken remote or hole in the wall). I used the RGB cycle to help get more consistent White values.

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post #1129 of 1252 Old 08-07-2017, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5 View Post
Hi Tom, I haven't got back calibrating yet, but I just bought a Sony A1 over a LG in the hope to avoid ABL issues while calibrating. In your experience was I sadly deluded in my hopes, or did I make a good choice?
Many thanks
All Oled's employ ABL of some sort. It is inherent to the technology, same as plasma.
All reviews mention how much it effects the different sets
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post #1130 of 1252 Old 08-07-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi @TomHuffman , could you please reply to my question below? Or has this been answered/discussed before? In that case could you please give me a reference so I can read up on it? Thanks!

P.S. The LG PF1000/1500 is a DLP cinema projector with a LED light engine.
None of these Spyder modes are matched to your projector, so I would use DC_Standard.

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post #1131 of 1252 Old 08-07-2017, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
Since the whites fluctuate so much is it better to calibrate to the peak of the whites just before the ABL kicks in or more of the mean of between the initial reading and the final reading (just before ABL kick in)?

Or does it matter as long as you calibrate to a consistent white value?

Also I did not notice anywhere we can adjust the white point in Rec.709 for metemeric failure of the OLED. Is this available now or in a future update?
Just get a consistent white value. 3.2 will offer adjustable white point.
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post #1132 of 1252 Old 08-07-2017, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
This make it hard to target a specific nit value. So I would range from 163-172 (before ASBL kicked in) I settled on 168.5 to start my calibration and made sure each time I measured white I would see the value at 168.5 before I proceeded.
You may get better results with a somewhat lower 100% nit value. Try 140.
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post #1133 of 1252 Old 08-07-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayraysaiz View Post
...snip...So If I turn the ASBL in the service menu will the additional "phenomenon" still be present? Can you access the service menu without having the specialized remote? I would then turn it back on after I am done.

...snip...
ASBL is only for ASBL and not the other stuff that's going on.

I was able to use my Harmony One remote by downloading the file for one of the other LG remotes that has the needed buttons. They're probably other remotes that are programmable where you could do the same thing. Check the ASBL thread for which display(remote) has the buttons you need.
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post #1134 of 1252 Old 08-11-2017, 03:20 PM
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Tom,

I asked Jim from Lumagen about calibrating my JVC projector to utilize the IM feature and got the following response:

Quote:
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With either Calman or Chromapure the only choice currently is to set the CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020 (or SDR709 can work), Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR, and do the calibration using SDR patterns to the Rec 2020 primary points. You need to temporarily set CMS1 to be used for 601/709 sources using the Output Setup menu then once the calibration is complete point 601/709 sources to CMS0 again.

This is not quite as accurate as as Colorspace = SDR2020, Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR, and using Lightspace to calibrate the 3D LUT to do the HDR to SDR container conversion, but it is still very good.
How do I "calibrate using SDR patterns to the Rec 2020 primary points"? I understand how to set my Lumagen up as he describes but want to make sure I'm using the correct procedure within Chromapure.

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post #1135 of 1252 Old 08-11-2017, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mskreis View Post
How do I "calibrate using SDR patterns to the Rec 2020 primary points"? I understand how to set my Lumagen up as he describes but want to make sure I'm using the correct procedure within Chromapure.
You would just setup the Radiance to output SDR test patterns and then set the ChromaPure Reference Gamut to 2020 and the Reference Gamma to something other than HDR10.

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post #1136 of 1252 Old 08-11-2017, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
You would just setup the Radiance to output SDR test patterns and then set the ChromaPure Reference Gamut to 2020 and the Reference Gamma to something other than HDR10.


Ok. Since I'm using SDR patterns it should be ok to use 75 or even 100% intensity/saturation, correct?



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post #1137 of 1252 Old 08-11-2017, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mskreis View Post
Ok. Since I'm using SDR patterns it should be ok to use 75 or even 100% intensity/saturation, correct?
For regular color calibration 75% sat and intensity are generally best. For auto-cal, you MUST use 100% intensity.
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post #1138 of 1252 Old 08-18-2017, 09:12 AM
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Hi Tom

Do you have any idea when DV will be added to chromapure?

Cheers
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post #1139 of 1252 Old 08-18-2017, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tom

Do you have any idea when DV will be added to chromapure?
I am evaluating it, but I can't be any more specific than that. Since DV is a licensed, proprietary technology, unlike HDR10 I can't just implement it on my own.

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post #1140 of 1252 Old 08-18-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Hi Tom

Do you have any idea when DV will be added to chromapure?
I am evaluating it, but I can't be any more specific than that. Since DV is a licensed, proprietary technology, unlike HDR10 I can't just implement it on my own.
Ok thanks Tom
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