10 bit Gradient Test Patterns - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 68 Old 01-04-2016, 10:26 PM
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Those patterns look very smooth going through tivos and onto 1080p plasmas (F8500 and VT50).

How does that make any sense? Shouldn't they both be 8 bit?
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post #32 of 68 Old 01-07-2016, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Those patterns look very smooth going through tivos and onto 1080p plasmas (F8500 and VT50).

How does that make any sense? Shouldn't they both be 8 bit?
I think the f8500 is a 10 bit panel.
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post #33 of 68 Old 01-07-2016, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Stacey Spears created a 2160p HEVC Rotating 8bit and 10bit Quantization Artifact test pattern. He gave me permission to post it here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68...ew?usp=sharing

Screenshot below
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Tyler Pruitt - Technical Liaison at SpectraCal

10 Bit Gradient Test Patterns (HEVC) - Free Download
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post #34 of 68 Old 01-07-2016, 11:48 AM
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post #35 of 68 Old 01-09-2016, 09:59 AM
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Is there anyway to down convert the test pattern to 1080p? I tried to do it in Quicktime but it wouldn't open.
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post #36 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I tried this on my Sony 850C which I thought was supposed to be an 8bit panel. But I don't see discreet steps.

It looks very smooth.

This was using a USB drive connected to the TV. And using the TVs default video player app, as well as the VLC video app and the Archos video app.

EDIT: I just tried the same files from my VTEN media player going through one of the HDMI inputs. Playing it that way I do see discreet steps.
I want to try these on my 930C XBR. Did you just put the file straight on a USB stick and plug it in.
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post #37 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I want to try these on my 930C XBR. Did you just put the file straight on a USB stick and plug it in.
Yes.

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post #38 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Yes.

Thanks. Seems we dont need to know, already been determined in a chart that the 930C is 8 bit + dithering for 10 bits. Which until today, I did not know was common. So itll pass the test as a 10 bit.

The 850C is the same, and the 940C is the only true 10 bit panel. Only difference in this area between the 850 and 930 seems to be overall brightness and DCIP3 %.
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post #39 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 12:57 PM
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post #40 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 01:59 PM
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Sony TVs also have Super bit mapping.
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2009/09/1...er-technology/

It's an old article but my 2013 W9 and BluRay player have it.


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post #41 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Thanks. Seems we dont need to know, already been determined in a chart that the 930C is 8 bit + dithering for 10 bits. Which until today, I did not know was common. So itll pass the test as a 10 bit.

The 850C is the same, and the 940C is the only true 10 bit panel. Only difference in this area between the 850 and 930 seems to be overall brightness and DCIP3 %.
So where is this chart of which you speak?

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post #42 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 02:11 PM
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post #43 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Hmmm...Nice looking spreadsheets, any info on data source(s)?

Cursory look indicates it has wrong info on 850C for 65 and 75, says edge lit, they are both back lit.

Still looks like we don't have anything official from Sony on this. Our am I missing something.

Thanks!

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post #44 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 04:21 PM
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Will these tests help to separate a 10 bit panel from 8bit +drc? Or will those be impossible to tell apart?

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post #45 of 68 Old 01-10-2016, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Will these tests help to separate a 10 bit panel from 8bit +drc? Or will those be impossible to tell apart?
So far I don't know that we have been able to use them to "prove" anything. If a set has an 8 bit panel that provides very good dithering of 10 bit content it seems like it will be unlikely we can know for sure just by looking at the screen.

We really need manufacturers to just publish the specs, but they may be uninterested in doing that for various reasons.

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post #46 of 68 Old 01-16-2016, 02:28 PM
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it seems the lg ef9500 Oled has a 10bit panel as well.

I couldn't get 10bit output working from the Intel gpu in my htpc so I swapped in a nvidia gtx950 for the 10-12bt output.

Using mediaplayer.net I was able to set the player to output 10bit output and also to disable dithering.

Below is a pic of the 10bit (top) / 8bit (bottom) comparison MP4 file posted in the thread.

You can see that there is less banding on top.


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post #47 of 68 Old 01-16-2016, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Will these tests help to separate a 10 bit panel from 8bit +drc? Or will those be impossible to tell apart?
If the designers do a really good job, the human eye can't easily tell the difference between a true 10-bit panel and 8-bit + 2-bit FRC panel.

Taking pictures using a camera with a short exposure time should easily notice the difference, especially with the older temporal dithering used on 6bit+2bit FRC TN panels. Around 2011 or 2012, a better form of dithering called AFRC started being used and that blurs together pretty well even to a camera but does add some noise to dark images. Here's a page with some sample images and discussion of dithering types:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

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post #48 of 68 Old 01-16-2016, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post
it seems the lg ef9500 Oled has a 10bit panel as well.

I couldn't get 10bit output working from the Intel gpu in my htpc so I swapped in a nvidia gtx950 for the 10-12bt output.

Using mediaplayer.net I was able to set the player to output 10bit output and also to disable dithering.

Below is a pic of the 10bit (top) / 8bit (bottom) comparison MP4 file posted in the thread.

You can see that there is less banding on top.


But I thought there shouldn't be any banding on the 10bit? On my Sony 850C, which is an 8 bit panel, there is no visible banding like that with the 10 bit file.

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post #49 of 68 Old 01-16-2016, 04:00 PM
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Maybe the nvidia gtx950 is introducing some banding. My tv is a 65" and even with 10bit each step should be around 3-4 pixels wide at uhd resolution.

The banding in the 10bit portion of the test file was minor.

Another thought is that maybe the lg 20pt white balance controls introduced some banding as I have calibrated my tv.
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post #50 of 68 Old 01-17-2016, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post
Maybe the nvidia gtx950 is introducing some banding. My tv is a 65" and even with 10bit each step should be around 3-4 pixels wide at uhd resolution.

The banding in the 10bit portion of the test file was minor.

Another thought is that maybe the lg 20pt white balance controls introduced some banding as I have calibrated my tv.
These 10-bit patterns would be far more useful if they separated the near-black (0% - 5%) from the high-brightness part of the range.

As constructed, there is no way to see detail wishing the near-black region because it all appears 'black' in the context of 100%.

Where did this pattern come from and what would be involved in creating a 10-bit 0-5% ramp and/or pyramid similar to this 10-bit 0% - 100% ramp?

Instead of 4 columns per video-level, a 10-bit 0%-5% ramp would have 15 or 16 columns per video level (and a pyramid half as many).
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post #51 of 68 Old 01-21-2016, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
These 10-bit patterns would be far more useful if they separated the near-black (0% - 5%) from the high-brightness part of the range.

As constructed, there is no way to see detail wishing the near-black region because it all appears 'black' in the context of 100%.

Where did this pattern come from and what would be involved in creating a 10-bit 0-5% ramp and/or pyramid similar to this 10-bit 0% - 100% ramp?

Instead of 4 columns per video-level, a 10-bit 0%-5% ramp would have 15 or 16 columns per video level (and a pyramid half as many).
These images are usually constructed via a gradient tool in Adobe's Photoshop, although I believe the open source GIMP program will also let you create them:

https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-concepts-gradients.html

Anyway, you probably want to calibrate black level, brightness, and contrast first:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/white.php

A perfectly adjusted display will let you distinguish full black from 1, 2, 3, etc and full white from 254 and 253. VA panels have an easier time getting low blacks correct, and IPS/PLS panels have problems because of the "IPS glow" or backlight bleeding; TN are in the middle. (Note that this is pretty tough even for high quality CAD/CAM monitors which assume RGB full.)
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post #52 of 68 Old 01-22-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
im going to assume that the fire tv is 8 bit, not 10 bit. i could be wrong. or i could be right.
50---------------50 shot

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post #53 of 68 Old 01-22-2016, 02:16 PM
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The FireTV can't do higher than 4k30P which I think is also only 10Gbps. Doesn't 10 bit require 18Gbps?

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post #54 of 68 Old 02-28-2016, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cswiger View Post
If the designers do a really good job, the human eye can't easily tell the difference between a true 10-bit panel and 8-bit + 2-bit FRC panel.

Taking pictures using a camera with a short exposure time should easily notice the difference, especially with the older temporal dithering used on 6bit+2bit FRC TN panels. Around 2011 or 2012, a better form of dithering called AFRC started being used and that blurs together pretty well even to a camera but does add some noise to dark images. Here's a page with some sample images and discussion of dithering types:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
Some sets may also do some dithering before it even gets to the panel. On a PC, for example, I can run a 10-bit pattern through madVR with some enhanced dithering options, and the 8-bit output looks incredibly smooth.
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post #55 of 68 Old 02-28-2016, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voyager6868 View Post
Some sets may also do some dithering before it even gets to the panel. On a PC, for example, I can run a 10-bit pattern through madVR with some enhanced dithering options, and the 8-bit output looks incredibly smooth.
Definitely-- how the panel handles things matters just as much, but madVR can make a huge difference to picture quality.

madshi has implemented a bunch of really high quality dithering and scaling filters, and if you go to town in madVR with the fancier DX11 versions and have the dither change every frame, it's basically doing a high-quality temporal dither on the source side before the panel even sees the image.

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post #56 of 68 Old 02-29-2016, 06:27 PM
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How do you run the test pattern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
There have been a lot of people asking me how they can tell if their UHD TV has a 10bit panel or not, so I made some 10bit Gradient test patterns. These will show discreet steps on an 8bit panel.

The test patterns are 2160p 10bit HEVC gradient grayscale patterns. There are two different clips, one is a gradient from black to white, and the other is a gradient from black to about 75% gray.

The clips are only 10 seconds long, so you might need to pause them so you can get a good look up close to the screen.

I have included both .MP4 and .TS versions for compatibility reasons. Both versions have the same elementary streams inside, they just have different containers.

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68...ew?usp=sharing

Stacey Spears created a 2160p HEVC Rotating 8bit and 10bit Quantization Artifact test pattern. He gave me permission to post it here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68...ew?usp=sharing
How do I run these files? Do I load to a thumb drive? Will a video player work?

Thanks

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Last edited by tron49; 02-29-2016 at 06:43 PM. Reason: I think I've figured it out... VLC player correct?
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post #57 of 68 Old 02-29-2016, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tron49 View Post
How do I run these files? Do I load to a thumb drive? Will a video player work?

Thanks
I put it on a flash drive and plug the flash drive into a USB port on the TV.

My Sony TV has three apps on it to play videos. So typically at least one will work if not all of them for playback.

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post #58 of 68 Old 02-29-2016, 06:55 PM
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Wink Thanks for the quick response....

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I put it on a flash drive and plug the flash drive into a USB port on the TV.

My Sony TV has three apps on it to play videos. So typically at least one will work if not all of them for playback.
I wasn't sure how to do it.... but a quick search of the internet told me what the files were and your quick response kind of narrowed my choices.... thanks again.


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post #59 of 68 Old 04-22-2016, 02:40 AM
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Hi guys,

I've tested the rotating 10bit test pattern with my HTPC with Madvr properly setted to out 10bit signal.
The HTPC sends an RGB 4:4:4 ultra HD signal to my Pansonic 65AX900 (european model)LED Tv.

Panny is setted in 4K pure mode that permits to accept a RGB 444 signal.

I've to say that I can see a little discretizations on both the rotating gradients.

The amount of dicretizations seems similar on both the squares ... is it normal??

thank you
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post #60 of 68 Old 04-22-2016, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FidelioX View Post
Hi guys,

I've tested the rotating 10bit test pattern with my HTPC with Madvr properly setted to out 10bit signal.
The HTPC sends an RGB 4:4:4 ultra HD signal to my Pansonic 65AX900 (european model)LED Tv.

Panny is setted in 4K pure mode that permits to accept a RGB 444 signal.

I've to say that I can see a little discretizations on both the rotating gradients.

The amount of dicretizations seems similar on both the squares ... is it normal??
madVR is going to dither the image before it gets to the display, and it does a good job...so yeah, that's fairly normal.

I can see a little more banding with the left 8-bit square, but it's not obvious-- pay attention more to the darker areas rather than the brightest portion as the gradient spins around. For example, try pausing the playback when the bright portion is at the top, and you should be able to see horizontal banding towards the middle and bottom.

Primary (2.1): Thiel CS 1.2 / Velodyne F1000 sub / Adcom GFA-555 Mk2 / Rotel 970BX / Sony CDP-CA9 ES
Secondary (5.1): Paradigm Mini-Monitor v.3 / CC270 v.3 center / ADP-170 v.2 surrounds /
SVS SB1000 sub / Marantz SR-6010 / AppleTV + Win7 PC / BenQ BL3200PT
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