AVS Forum banner

Lightspace DPS Free vs HCFR for a newbie

13K views 45 replies 14 participants last post by  Steve_Shaw 
#1 ·
Hello elders and gurus of AVS Forum,

I've never calibrated a TV before, but I have been reading a lot about calibration recently. Not everything makes sense, but I'm slowly learning. The subject intrigues me.

I have a new i1 Display Pro and waiting for Ted's calibration disk to arrive. I'd like to do manual calibration of my LG 55EG9100 OLED TV.

At this point, I'm not looking to spend money on calibration software. My free options appear to be Lightspace DPS free version and HCFR.

Would you recommend that I use HCFR or Lightspace? One person told me that for a newbie like me HCFR might be more user-friendly than Lightspace. What are your thoughts on which software might be appropriate for my situation?

Thanks
 
#2 ·
HCFR is easy to use. It will take a little time to learn it but it powerful enough to get a quality calibration.

I like the built in pattern generator. Gets the job done.

There's no guide or workflow, so you will have to do some reading to learn how to do it right.
 
#7 ·
I'm obviously not a HCFR user, but with LightSpace DPS there is a very easy to follow user guide that takes you through the process step-by-step.
I activated the Free DPS version, but the License Info shows an Expiry Date of December 09, 2016. Will the software actually expire on that day?
 
#4 · (Edited)
IMHO, the single most important function of a calibration software, besides being able to measure etc, is to have an internal pattern generator. Using pattern discs is cumbersome and tedious, espescially if you are not able to get all your measurements in one big swoop. It may be be OK for generating 3Dluts, although it's going to be slower. But if you are calibrating offsets/gain/10 point gamma/greyscale/cms, where one change will also change other things (to a lesser degree) and you need to go back and forth to get it perfect. Then using pattern disc is going to a study of patience. (But as Steve pointed out, Lightspace DPS has an internal TPG).

Also I don't buy that pattern discs are more accurate because they will correct for inaccuracies from consumer BD players that may not be bitperfect. It is partially true of course, but if you are on this forum, then you are automatically not a "normal" consumer and should not have a grossly inaccurate BD players to begin with. Even if you are using an inaccurate players, you can't be sure you actually measured ALL the inaccuracies. Two wrongs don make a right.

Then there is also the potential issue that your TV don't have independent presets for each input. Are you really then going to base your calibration on an inaccurate BD player? Even if your TV had indendent presets for each input, that would mean you would have to calibrate two times (or 4 with day/night modes), once for normal sources and once for the inaccurate BD player.

An issue also arises when you use an external HDMI switcher (or you use your AVR as a switcher). Then only the output from the inaccurate source would be right and all other sources would be wrong.

But calibration discs might be great to verify the results.
 
#16 ·
[...]
Also I don't buy that pattern discs are more accurate because they will correct for inaccuracies from consumer BD players that may not be bitperfect. It is partially true of course, but if you are on this forum, then you are automatically not a "normal" consumer and should not have a grossly inaccurate BD players to begin with. Even if you are using an inaccurate players, you can't be sure you actually measured ALL the inaccuracies. Two wrongs don make a right.
[...]
Thanks. I understand. My BD player (Pioneer BDP-51FD) does have options to turn off video processing and set the output colorspace. So hopefully I can get it to send the signal out with acceptable accuracy.

I guess you are implying that computer video cards are bit perfect? Does that also not depend on the hardware and the OS? I think I saw an article somewhere on this forum or elsewhere about using computers as pattern generators and how to disable the monitor profile adjustments that OS's make. I should dig that up and read.

Then there is also the potential issue that your TV don't have independent presets for each input. Are you really then going to base your calibration on an inaccurate BD player? Even if your TV had indendent presets for each input, that would mean you would have to calibrate two times (or 4 with day/night modes), once for normal sources and once for the inaccurate BD player.
Good point. My TV does have independent presets for the three inputs I use (OTA antenna input, Apple TV via HDMI, and BD via HDMI). Even if I had the patience to calibrate for every combination of input device + day/night, I don't have any device / software to input patterns via Apple TV or OTA antenna. Perhaps sending the computer generated pattern via Airplay will work for the Apple TV input.

An issue also arises when you use an external HDMI switcher (or you use your AVR as a switcher). Then only the output from the inaccurate source would be right and all other sources would be wrong.
Yes, another good point. I don't have a switcher. The OTA antenna and HDMI inputs go directly to the TV.

Thanks a lot for taking time to explain. I'm having fun learning.
 
#5 ·
LightSpace DPS has an internal patch generator, and comes with a Java App that can be used on any networked PC/Mac/Linux box for networked patch generation.

Using the LightSpace PC's HDMI output you can easily and quickly perform any calibration measurements.

Steve
 
#6 ·
Hey Steve. I was talking generally, but thanks for the clarification. I hope to try out Lightspace DPS sometime.

Are you saying that Lightspace supports all the normal features required to manually dial in a TV? (like 99% of us do) If so, that seems like a tremendous value, and literally given away.
 
#9 ·
  • Like
Reactions: |Tch0rT|
#11 ·
Oh - and I should say that we are always keen on feedback too - and if there are features missing we will do our best to add them.
We have a very large user base already, and hopefully those users will attest to the level of support and development we strive to attain.

Steve
 
#12 ·
Oh - and I should say that we are always keen on feedback too
So here's some quick feedback:;)

1. I have an i1Pro (directly supported by Lightspace DPS) and an i1Display Pro (not directly supported, but is supposed to work with custom DLL). The Discoverable Probes screen allows multiple selections, so I selected both probes. However, when I physically switched probes, it's hard to tell whether the probe is being recognized by software. (I had assumed the information to be displayed under "Active Probe / Display Data", but that always shows NONE). [EDIT: the recognized probe's serial number is displayed, but that's not very user friendly.]

2. When I click on Profile and select Gray Scale Only, the software still reads the primary colours in addtion. It looks like there's no different in behaviour whether I select "Gray Scale Only", or "Primary Only" - both behave the same way. "Memory Colours", however, does behave as expected.

3. Every time I click on START, the software prompts me for a "Profile Name", and yet the name doesn't appear to be used for anything. When all measurements are done, the only two options (active buttons) are Profile (again?) and Cancel Profile; there's no option to save the measurements. [EDIT: I subsequently found the profile names under Colour Standard Target / Manage. Not sure if I understand the relationship between Profile and Colour Standard Target. Still haven't found the option to save the measurements; Export is not supported with the DPS license].

I did not go past this point - not obvious what's next. Is it supposed to be "Measure"???

I think the User Manual really needs a high level overview of the process of using the software. Right now it gets into some advanced options such as Probe Matching which the first time user really doesn't need.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Thanks - Appreciated.

1 - I have to agree with that. We really should add more info about the connected probe where we presently show just the Serial Number. I'll get the team to look into that. The Active Probe and Display part of the menu is just for probe matching, as described in the user manual.

2 - A Grey Only profile also does single patches of RGB, as they are needed to generate a LUT from the profile (a LUT can't be generated from Grey only - and cant be generated from the Sat Sweeps and Mem Colours either). When you do a Primary Only, or plus Secondary profile you get full RGB patches too.

3 - The profile name is used to 'save' the profile into the profile Library (Manage Colour Spaces). The profile can then be recalled and viewed with the various graphs, and used via 'Convert Colour Space' to make a LUT - but that's not really of use with Manual calibration, other than it can be a good way to visualise the calibration errors - a perfect calibration profile would generate a LUT that was a perfect cube.

You can export a PDF of the profile, by selecting the profile, displaying it, and then selecting the 'Export' button. You must do that before closing the program as with the DPS license the profiles are not 'saved', so will not be there when you re-start LightSpace.

What you have to remember is there is no relationship between profile data and the selected colour space - that is one of the important approaches of LightSpace. It means that when using LightSpace for LUT generation you can profile any display, and then use the profile data to generate any LUT for any colour space, or compare the profile data to any colour space.

Are you reading the correct User Manual: http://www.lightillusion.com/manual_calibration_idiots_guide.html
It takes you through the whole process for manual calibration step-by-step.
(And you can skip the bits about probe matching...)

Hope that helps.

Steve
 
#14 · (Edited)
2 - A Grey Only profile also does single patches of RGB, as they are needed to generate a LUT from the profile (a LUT can't be generated from Grey only - and cant be generated from the Sat Sweeps and Mem Colours either). When you do a Primary Only, or plus Secondary profile you get full RGB patches too.
I guess I was misled by the descriptions "Grey Only" & "Primary Only", etc. The second option is actually a "superset" of the first, reading the full grey patches as well as the primary colour patches.

You can export a PDF of the profile, by selecting the profile, displaying it, and then selecting the 'Export' button.
No, I did try that, but got the error message "Export is not supported with the DPS license"

What you have to remember is there is no relationship between profile data and the selected colour space - that is one of the important approaches of LightSpace.
Ironically, the only place I can find the profile data is under "Manage Colour Space Target" which seems to be totally unrelated.

Are you reading the correct User Manual: http://www.lightillusion.com/manual_calibration_idiots_guide.html
It takes you through the whole process for manual calibration step-by-step.
(And you can skip the bits about probe matching...)
Yes, that was what I was reading, and suggested having a high level overview of the manual calibration process. If the guide is indeed for "Idiots" (according to the title), the user will not be able to tell which parts (such as Probe Matching) he can skip, when he just wants to do a "basic" calibration.
 
#15 ·
Thanks for following up - again, appreciate you taking the time.

Yes, the Grey Only is a sub-set of Primary Only. That is as designed, as having 3 additional RGB patches when measuring Grey can be very helpful when assessing the profile data. And having just 3 additional patches adds no real time to the profile.

The 'Export' you tried was to export the 'profile' - not the PDF. You are using the wrong button. The correct button is 'Export to PDF' as stated in the User Guide, accessed via Manage Colour Spaces/Display

It is from the 'Manage Colour Spaces' that you select the profile to see the various additional graphs, etc., as well as export the PDF, so it is actually very related.

Have to say we have had no other users struggle with not understanding the probe matching can be skipped - I'll review the guide again, but that comment is surprising, and so far a one-off. That is especially true as the Probe Matching instructions are in a separate 'window' within the guide, as are the comments on Ted's Calibration Disc' which should help the reader understand they are 'additional' options.

If the guide really is followed step-by-step any user should get to where they need to be with regard to final calibration.

Steve
 
#18 · (Edited)
Yes, the Grey Only is a sub-set of Primary Only. That is as designed, as having 3 additional RGB patches when measuring Grey can be very helpful when assessing the profile data. And having just 3 additional patches adds no real time to the profile.
I'm not "complaining" about the time it takes; my comment was only on the expected behaviour based on the option description. Also, I noticed every option is described as "Quick Profile" under Type, except "Grey Scale Only".
It would be useful to include an option to run the full set of Quick Profiles, instead of having to select and run through each type (some of which overlap with each other).

The 'Export' you tried was to export the 'profile' - not the PDF. You are using the wrong button. The correct button is 'Export to PDF' as stated in the User Guide, accessed via Manage Colour Spaces/Display
Yes, my mistake.

Have to say we have had no other users struggle with not understanding the probe matching can be skipped
I never said I had to "struggle" with it. It was just a suggestion on how, in an "Idiot's Guide", the more advanced features can be separated from the more basic features.

A further comment on the issue of probes - the "Change Probe" option does not let the user select the intended probe; it's not obvious what happens when that button is pressed.
 
#21 ·
Oh - Dominic, yes - Change Probe is indeed presently less than ideal.
It was based on an original requirement to only connect one probe at a time, disconnecting each probe using the 'Change Probe' before connecting a new one.

That is indeed on the 'to be improved' list (what we have always called the WIBNI list - Wouldn't It Be Nice If...).

Steve
 
#23 ·
Oh - Dominic, yes - Change Probe is indeed presently less than ideal.
It was based on an original requirement to only connect one probe at a time, disconnecting each probe using the 'Change Probe' before connecting a new one.

That is indeed on the 'to be improved' list
To me the original approach makes much more sense than how it currently behaves, so reverting back would already be a big improvement (and presumably easy to do).
 
#25 · (Edited)
Yes, the GUI is 'different' based on the non-structured approach to profiling compared to calibration.
I do also think the professional background to the software does make it different to more consumer approaches.
We are obviously not going to change that, and I'd hope that the difference would help with education as to what really matters with respect to calibration - the separation of profiling from final calibration being a key concept.

The two should actually not be directly linked, as that makes the calibration very restrictive - specifically when using 3D LUTs - so yes, that will alter the way the software is used for Manual Calibration.

For example the File/New has no place in Manual Calibration, as that is just fir the generation of a new 'Null' 3D LUT.
So for Manual Calibration there is no need for an 'Open File', as that is an irrelevance.
If you do a Quick Profile that will be saved automatically, so you can access it via the Manage Colour Spaces library, within the current session.

There is no way to save profile data beyond the current open session - that is a restriction of the 'Free' license.
But, you don't really need that for Manual Calibration - just for LUT based work.
For history of previous calibrations the PDF is ideal.

The two calibration interfaces are really for Manual Calibration via Manual Measurements and and Quick Profiles for verification.
The Display Characterisation is for full Cube Based profiling -not valid for the Free DPS license.

Bur, a Quick Profile is still a 'characterisation' of the display - via a Quick Profile.
It shows you the characterisation of the display regardless of you using a Quick or Cube profile.
Same end result, just less data involved with a Quick Profile.

Manage Colour Spaces is a library where any profiles (which is the true underlying colour space of the 'profiled' display) can be accessed and viewed with additional graphs, etc. Remember that a Colour Space is any set of measured data that describes a display, not just industry standard pre-set colour spaces.

Not sure I understand the final point though?
Gamma (EOTF) is the luminance curve - no difference.
After making a Quick Profile, such as Primary Only, you can view the profile data vs. and preset Colour Space standard - Rec709, BT1886, etc, by selecting the standard from the available drop-down,
You do not need to pre-select the Colour Space standard before any profile is made.
You can change the 'target' Colour Space standard at any time to see how the profile data compares.
And that is as it should be.
And you have Gamma, and Differential Gamma graphs.

Hope that helps.

Steve
 
#28 ·
And you have Gamma, and Differential Gamma graphs.
What I referred to as "Gamma graph" is something like this:


What Lightspace calls gamma graph is something like this:

which I would call the luminance graph (which of course shows the EOTF, but not the gamma "value" such as 2.2)
 
#27 ·
For those looking to keep budgets low and perform Manual Calibration I'd stick with a standard i1 Display Pro and one of the free software options.
The i1 Display Pro is cheaper new, and just as accurate.

There is actually no benefit using DDC on displays that do offer it compared to using the display's manual controls, and obviously many displays do not offer DDC.

And when it come to Manual Display calibration all the available software is basically capable of the same end results.
Its just how the workflow operates - fixed structure, or open - that is different.
We obviously prefer open, not-structured approaches, abut other's like a fixed workflow approach - just individual preference.

We do understand that with our 'open' approach it does take a level of understanding that is not needed with a fixed structure.
But the flexibility has greater potential if the user takes some time to learn the basics.

Having said all that, there are improvements we can make - and we will, based on the feedback we are provided.

Steve
 
#30 · (Edited)
Gamma is a curve... as it should be.
Differential gamma is a horizontal straight line.
A "power law" EOFT looks like this (ignoring the normalization for simplicity)

O=E^G (where G is commonly 2.2)

Some people (including Lightspace) would use the term "Gamma" to refer to the function (E^G), but of course one also needs a "name" for G as well (hint: here G stands for the Greek letter "gamma"). I haven't seen the term "Differential Gamma" used elsewhere, unless it simply means the difference between two gammas (measured vs target).

Regardless of the terminology, I find the first "definition" in my previous post much more informative for calibration gamma.

As an example:
If I have two displays, one calibrated to constant gamma 2.2, and the other to BT.1886 with a 0.1 black point. The first graph shows the difference between the two displays much more clearly than the second graph.
 

Attachments

#39 ·
Hi, you can install it at any drive, it's asking you this during setup, LightSpace is a lightweight software, it will require about 38MB space only.
 
#40 ·
As a fellow newbie who has tried both, I would suggest HCFR. For me the user interface is more intuitive - all the information I need is laid out and easy to see. I also think the available support materials are more robust on this forum for HCFR. As an example, the Lightspace forum for MANUAL calibration has 64 entries. The HCFR forum has over 9,000 entries. And it has people like Dominic who are very active, helpful, and patient. I actually found a detailed exchange between him and a new user who had my exact projector. Reading through that was very helpful.

I would also add that I found that my Android TV needed very different calibrations than my BD player. When I changed settings on the Android TV (say from 24p to 60p) I needed very different settings. I used the VLC media player and Ted's calibration files (not disk) on USB to calibrate the Android TV. He has files that run through all the right patterns in order so it's really not that painful. I believe VLC is available for the Apple TV as well.

Good luck.
 
#41 ·
I would also add that I found that my Android TV needed very different calibrations than my BD player. When I changed settings on the Android TV (say from 24p to 60p) I needed very different settings.
You should expect this and I find it's often taken for granted that a calibration for one source is suitable for another completely different source. Essentially, using the same device to calibrate inputs that will use different sources is not calibration. That said, if you have a BD player and can adjust it's output settings to send different resolutions, refresh rates, colour spaces and bit depths etc, it becomes a universal test pattern generator. As can a laptop if you can do the same with its graphics card.

As to which package to use as a newbie, I'd try both and see which suits. The principles remain the same regardless of which tool you use. From that perspective, in the 11 years I've been calibrating displays, I've found gathering as much information from as many sources as possible is the important thing and I still learn new things regularly even now, mostly as different display types require different approaches. I started out using HCFR, then moved on to Chromapure and now use Lightspace. I'd call the first 2 'traditional tools' and they're very similar in use, in the same way as CalMAN is. As an interface, Lightspace is actually far less complicated and easier to use although, maybe not as intuitive if you're used to using a more traditional tool. Not that you'd have that stigma as a newbie.

If you can, I'd advise using the integral TPG as it will vastly speed up measurement sweeps and reduces the faff of pressing buttons on a remote.
Whatever you decide on, just spend some time getting to know your display and how it responds to changes and don't rush it.

Paul
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top