2016/2017 Vizio P Series Calibration Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1259Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
beardontwalk123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Clear Lake, IA
Posts: 1,407
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1030 Post(s)
Liked: 666
2016/2017 Vizio P Series Calibration Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
The Delta E's on color look surprisingly poor. The CIE chart shows greens to be clearly skewed off from all saturation targets.

Is it not possible to adjust the CMS on this set to get these under 1.5?
You can but there are other problems that come to surface when you do. I had red near perfect when I Calibrated but real footage looked awful after Calibration even though the charts were great. Other colors will show posterization and other sorts so it's best to leave them at default for now until these issues get resolved.
beardontwalk123 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 06:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
That's the thing, humans are very bad at telling the difference between accurate colors and inaccurate colors without a meter. While you might think it "looks so real", if it has a deltaE of 3, it is a color shift error. There the only color information on a Bluray or 1080p video feed is inside the rec709 CIE triangle. The capture here shows the colors being rendered outside of that triangle, and with a shift on angle as you get farther away from grey.

There's no magic that allows a screen with a WCG to guess what colors were originally there that were removed in the production process, nor any way to infer what the director intended if the gamut had been larger. The point of calibration is to have the screen show the image exactly as intended by the director.


Yes, that can make a difference. Computer graphics cards tend to introduce their own color error. It would be more accurate if you used the option to have the test pattern source be a "DVD" in the software, and then use the AVS709 patterns from this thread: AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

You would need to either burn these to a DVD or Bluray and use a bluray player, or copy the .mp4 files to a thumb drive and have some device that is capable of playing it handle it, or stream it to the TV using Chromecast or AppleTV or something of that nature. Be careful to make sure that any streaming software you use passes the video along as "h.264 pass through", and doesn't re-encode the video, as again, that might introduce error.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to just give you hell about the screen -- I have been watching the P-Series thread with a lot of interest, and I checked one out at Best Buy. I don't own one, but I have no alleigance to Sony, Samsung and LG. It's clear that no matter the result of final calibration that the P-Series is a great screen at that price, and a huge step forward for Vizio. Excellent native contrast, good local dimming, a great concept for the remote control, etc. But that doesn't mean you should ignore what meters say as far as color accuracy. Rtings review had a similar problem -- high delta E on colors. If you compare it to calibration reports for Sony x930c/x940c (Rtings has one for the x930c), you can see that the delta E, even after calibration, is 2-3X higher on colors for the Vizio than for Sony or Samsung.

This is the AV *Science* forum, and this is the Calibration Sub-Forum. Calibration is not a matter of "making the image look the way you like!", Calibration is about making the image appear exactly has it was intended by the director.

HCFR has an option to CCAST the images to the Display. If that's a viable option I'd rather try that. I would think though there are settings that I can look for in HCFR and the OS to ensure the output is correct.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #33 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 06:54 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I understand that the targets need to be in the box but as an example which seeing should be adjusted to just skat green. Then after that setting is made, what other adjustment would likely be needed because of it?

Sent from my SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
This is done somewhat differently on all screens, so you will have to do some experimentation on your own to fully figure it out.

That said, if you look at the CIE Diagram, it will help you understand these comments better. The dark triangle is the rec709 target space. The white triangle is the actual measurements.

Many screen have more color error at 100% intensity than at 75%, and since most colors are actually at 75% or less, for the sake of calibration, you should use the 75% Color patterns from AVS709 for calibration purposes. Make sure to let it calibrate a 75% grey as 'white' as well to give you accurate Delta E measurements.

The "Color" or "Saturation" setting in the main settings area for your screen will by a blunt tool which will make the triangle somewhat larger or smaller for all colors at the same time as you adjust it. You might get somewhat more accurate Delta E's by lowering the Saturation in the main control a few clicks. Picture modes also have some impact on color rendering on some screen, "Calibrated Dark" will likely be the most accurate for colors. If there is an adjustment where you can force it to rec709, that will also perhaps have a big impact into bringing it in line.

Once the "blunt force" tools have been tweaked as much as they can be, it's time to move into the "CMS" (Color Management System) settings.
Hue will affect the left-right rotation of that color on the triangle, so the Hue setting for Green will move it more towards yellow or cyan. You want to move this closer to yellow in this case. Saturation controls the distance from the grey point, so likely some points are oversaturated while others are probably closer to the correct saturation -- Green and Magenta are probably the most oversaturated currently. Luminance controls how bright the color is (same color, more or less light allowed through). You can look at the Delta Luminance measurement as you adjust this. Currently, they look pretty close. Human eyes are much more sensitive on Delta E than Delta Luminance for colors.

I would suggest doing one color at a time, starting with the primaries, in order of most error to least, (So, green, blue, red), and adjusting Hue, then Saturation, then Luminance in that order for each color. Once you have those adjusted, you will then move on to the secondary colors (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow). You will likely have to do two passes, as each color you adjust will have an impact on the other colors as well.
shoman94 likes this.
randompersonx is offline  
 
post #34 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:02 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
HCFR has an option to CCAST the images to the Display. If that's a viable option I'd rather try that. I would think though there are settings that I can look for in HCFR and the OS to ensure the output is correct.
Chromecast should be reasonably accurate.

As far as your computer's HDMI port, even something as simple as upgrading a graphics card driver can change the color error being output. If you care about accurate colors coming out of a computer's HDMI port, what you need to do is first calibrate the screen using something known to be reasonably accurate, and then use something like i1Profiler (for color managed applications -- basically all of OSX) or madVR for videos on windows ( MadVR - ArgyllCMS ) to calibrate the computer to the screen. If you go this route, it will probably be more accurate than any other possible source, but it requires the computer itself to be calibrated to the screen, which will do nothing for other sources on the screen.
shoman94 likes this.
randompersonx is offline  
post #35 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:04 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by beardontwalk123 View Post
You can but there are other problems that come to surface when you do. I had red near perfect when I Calibrated but real footage looked awful after Calibration even though the charts were great. Other colors will show posterization and other sorts so it's best to leave them at default for now until these issues get resolved.
Did you just adjust red, or did you do all colors? When you adjust one color, it will have an impact on all the others, which is why adjusting CMS must be done in a multiple pass routine -- all primaries, then all secondaries, then all primaries again, then all secondaries again.
randompersonx is offline  
post #36 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by k124 View Post
What do you all think about this?

I recognize that we are mainly discussing Rec. 709 signals and not HDR, but this display is all about extreme contrast, etc.

How important is it to account for luminance in grayscale calibration?

What target should we be using for this display?

I'd imagine it depends on viewing environment a lot as well, yes/no?
What most people do is have a "Night" setting which is calibrated to 120 nits, and a "Day" setting which is calibrated to their preference.

On many screens, the only difference between Night and Day is the backlight setting.
shoman94 likes this.
randompersonx is offline  
post #37 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1316 Post(s)
Liked: 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
Chromecast should be reasonably accurate.
The chromecast output in HCFR (and discalGUI/ArgyllCMS) is dithered and is quite accurate although not perfect. It's a good way to benchmark your laptop GPU output and a lot faster than using a DVD.
shoman94 likes this.
zoyd is offline  
post #38 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
This is done somewhat differently on all screens, so you will have to do some experimentation on your own to fully figure it out.

That said, if you look at the CIE Diagram, it will help you understand these comments better. The dark triangle is the rec709 target space. The white triangle is the actual measurements.

Many screen have more color error at 100% intensity than at 75%, and since most colors are actually at 75% or less, for the sake of calibration, you should use the 75% Color patterns from AVS709 for calibration purposes. Make sure to let it calibrate a 75% grey as 'white' as well to give you accurate Delta E measurements.

The "Color" or "Saturation" setting in the main settings area for your screen will by a blunt tool which will make the triangle somewhat larger or smaller for all colors at the same time as you adjust it. You might get somewhat more accurate Delta E's by lowering the Saturation in the main control a few clicks. Picture modes also have some impact on color rendering on some screen, "Calibrated Dark" will likely be the most accurate for colors. If there is an adjustment where you can force it to rec709, that will also perhaps have a big impact into bringing it in line.

Once the "blunt force" tools have been tweaked as much as they can be, it's time to move into the "CMS" (Color Management System) settings.
Hue will affect the left-right rotation of that color on the triangle, so the Hue setting for Green will move it more towards yellow or cyan. You want to move this closer to yellow in this case. Saturation controls the distance from the grey point, so likely some points are oversaturated while others are probably closer to the correct saturation -- Green and Magenta are probably the most oversaturated currently. Luminance controls how bright the color is (same color, more or less light allowed through). You can look at the Delta Luminance measurement as you adjust this. Currently, they look pretty close. Human eyes are much more sensitive on Delta E than Delta Luminance for colors.

I would suggest doing one color at a time, starting with the primaries, in order of most error to least, (So, green, blue, red), and adjusting Hue, then Saturation, then Luminance in that order for each color. Once you have those adjusted, you will then move on to the secondary colors (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow). You will likely have to do two passes, as each color you adjust will have an impact on the other colors as well.

So the main screen has Color and Tint for "blunt tools". Saturation is in the Color Tuner section along with another Brightness and I believe Hue which are all split with the 6 colors. Then you have Offset and Gain which is split into R,G,B. Then you have 11pt.


So knowing this... when is the GrayScale factored in. What's the order of adjustments from scratch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
Chromecast should be reasonably accurate.

As far as your computer's HDMI port, even something as simple as upgrading a graphics card driver can change the color error being output. If you care about accurate colors coming out of a computer's HDMI port, what you need to do is first calibrate the screen using something known to be reasonably accurate, and then use something like i1Profiler (for color managed applications -- basically all of OSX) or madVR for videos on windows ( MadVR - ArgyllCMS ) to calibrate the computer to the screen. If you go this route, it will probably be more accurate than any other possible source, but it requires the computer itself to be calibrated to the screen, which will do nothing for other sources on the screen.

I did Calibrate my screen on my laptop but nothing else. I guess I'll try the CCast option and see how that goes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #39 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
What most people do is have a "Night" setting which is calibrated to 120 nits, and a "Day" setting which is calibrated to their preference.

On many screens, the only difference between Night and Day is the backlight setting.
Exactly what I did but I setup 3. Night no lights at 130 nits, Night with the normal lighting on in the house at 300 nits then Day which is when the Sun is out. I have 2 good sized windows and 2 skylights in my living room. Only difference is Backlight as you said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #40 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
beardontwalk123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Clear Lake, IA
Posts: 1,407
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1030 Post(s)
Liked: 666
2016/2017 Vizio P Series Calibration Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by beardontwalk123 View Post
You can but there are other problems that come to surface when you do. I had red near perfect when I Calibrated but real footage looked awful after Calibration even though the charts were great. Other colors will show posterization and other sorts so it's best to leave them at default for now until these issues get resolved.
Did you just adjust red, or did you do all colors? When you adjust one color, it will have an impact on all the others, which is why adjusting CMS must be done in a multiple pass routine -- all primaries, then all secondaries, then all primaries again, then all secondaries again.
I did all of them but these Vizio's react in a weird way to CMS Calibration. That's why I leave them alone until an update comes. I will maybe try turning down color to 45 or so to account for the really saturated blue and yellow.
beardontwalk123 is offline  
post #41 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
So @mpgxsvcd says we should not box ourselves into the REC 709 standard with this display. What do you guys think about that?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post43160458

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #42 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mpgxsvcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 8,712
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2763 Post(s)
Liked: 2459
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
So @mpgxsvcd says we should not box ourselves into the REC 709 standard with this display. What do you guys think about that?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post43160458
I know I opened a can of worms with that statement but I strongly believe we need to take a look at how we blindly follow REC.709 as gospel when it is such a limiting factor.
shoman94 likes this.
mpgxsvcd is offline  
post #43 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 08:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I know I opened a can of worms with that statement but I strongly believe we need to take a look at how we blindly follow REC.709 as gospel when it is such a limiting factor.
We'll see...lol I understand what you are saying though. Is REC-709 truly accurate to what we see? I think not. I'm too much of a novice to really judge anyways but I'm all about it being accurate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #44 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 08:40 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
So the main screen has Color and Tint for "blunt tools". Saturation is in the Color Tuner section along with another Brightness and I believe Hue which are all split with the 6 colors. Then you have Offset and Gain which is split into R,G,B. Then you have 11pt.


So knowing this... when is the GrayScale factored in. What's the order of adjustments from scratch?




I did Calibrate my screen on my laptop but nothing else. I guess I'll try the CCast option and see how that goes.

1) Black Clipping Level (I believe Vizio calls this Brightness)
2) White Clipping Level (I believe Vizio calls this Contrast)
3) Optional: Color Clipping Level -- you adjust this by tuning the same knob as the white clipping level, but using a 3-color pattern, making sure that all three colors can reach 235 before clipping.
4) Greyscale 2-point (Offset and Gain as Vizio calls it)
5) Greyscale 11-point
6) Main Color/Saturation
7) Main Tint (Though in this case, like in most, Tint is probably set correctly at the factory)
8) CMS tuning

Based on what others are saying, there might be something wrong with how Vizio handles the CMS settings, and it may be best to leave those settings alone for now, until more is understood about how they actually work on this screen, or vizio releases an update. All of the steps up until 6 seem to be safe to use though, and perhaps just turning Saturation down will be enough to improve the Delta E's.

I know on the two Sony 940c screens I calibrated, the Delta E was much improved by moving Color from default of 50 to 52, so it may be a similar change in the opposite direction improves things a lot for the Vizio.

Last edited by randompersonx; 04-11-2016 at 08:52 AM.
randompersonx is offline  
post #45 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 08:54 AM
Senior Member
 
k124's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 77
The responses on green adjustments and luminance made sense, thank you. I have not had a chance to measure grayscale accuracy once calibrated vs. backlight strength. It is good to hear that it is holding accurate across dark to bright viewing modes, especially since there is only a single global CMS profile that cannot be saved and selected.

One additional question for now - Do you all recommend calibrating grayscale + color w/ 10% window pattern or 100% screen?
k124 is offline  
post #46 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:03 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
We'll see...lol I understand what you are saying though. Is REC-709 truly accurate to what we see? I think not. I'm too much of a novice to really judge anyways but I'm all about it being accurate.
It's not that REC-709 is 'accurate to what we see'. REC-709 is what color space the entire production chain is calibrated for when they are producing content for any High Definition Television (720p, 1080i, 1080p), and non-HDR 4K platform -- Bluray, Cable TV, OTA Antenna, Streaming, etc. It's what the limits were of the production chain, so any colors beyond that REC-709 color space were clipped off in the video, and if you allow your screen to represent REC709 content outside the REC709 triangle, it is simply showing an error -- it cannot put color detail back which was clipped at the time of production. Put another way, REC-709 is 'accurate to what was authored in the Bluray'

DCI-P3 is a larger triangle which roughly represents the capability of film. This is the color space that movies are authored in for movie theaters -- unfortunately this extra color detail is lost when it is released on Bluray, but that data may be released when 4K/HDR Blurays are released for those films.

REC 2020 is an even larger triangle which gets significantly closer to the limits of human vision, but currently there are no TV's which can fully display REC 2020, and no content is mastered beyond DCI-P3 limits because of this.

Arguing that letting your screen go outside of REC 709 is "more accurate because it displays more colors" is analogous to your wife sending you to the store to get blue paint in a particular shade of blue that matches some blue furniture exactly, along with a color sample to make sure you get the right color. When you get to the store, you find the shade of blue that matches the sample, but you decide instead to purchase violet paint because it looked "more real" to you.

Yes, wide color gamut is great -- but if you enjoy the experience of content with a WCG, you should watch HDR content. Currently, that's limited to a few 4K HDR Blurays, and a few titles on Amazon and Netflix, and other streaming services. Right now, that isn't most content.
VBB, 10k, johnbrooke26 and 1 others like this.
randompersonx is offline  
post #47 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:06 AM
Member
 
ChadEDunham's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by k124 View Post
The responses on green adjustments and luminance made sense, thank you. I have not had a chance to measure grayscale accuracy once calibrated vs. backlight strength. It is good to hear that it is holding accurate across dark to bright viewing modes, especially since there is only a single global CMS profile that cannot be saved and selected.

One additional question for now - Do you all recommend calibrating grayscale + color w/ 10% window pattern or 100% screen?
I use the ABL patterns on the AVSHD disc. Otherwise, 10% window patterns seem to be the norm.
ChadEDunham is offline  
post #48 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:11 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by k124 View Post
The responses on green adjustments and luminance made sense, thank you. I have not had a chance to measure grayscale accuracy once calibrated vs. backlight strength. It is good to hear that it is holding accurate across dark to bright viewing modes, especially since there is only a single global CMS profile that cannot be saved and selected.

One additional question for now - Do you all recommend calibrating grayscale + color w/ 10% window pattern or 100% screen?
This gets into a complicated question because of the FALD backlight. For a non-dimming LCD, there would be no difference between the window or full field.

For a FALD screen, there is some debate as to the best way of doing it -- some people turn off local dimming, do the calibration, and then turn the dimming back on -- in which case, it wont matter if its window or full field.

Personally, I think you can get better results is using a larger window (20%?) with an APL pattern in the perimeter, or ideally, using patterns which would have a test window in the middle, and the rest of the screen as 45% grey -- though I haven't found any freely available patterns like that.

I used APL with 'Large Windows' from the AVS709 library, with FALD enabled on my 940c.
randompersonx is offline  
post #49 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
It's not that REC-709 is 'accurate to what we see'. REC-709 is what color space the entire production chain is calibrated for when they are producing content for any High Definition Television (720p, 1080i, 1080p), and non-HDR 4K platform -- Bluray, Cable TV, OTA Antenna, Streaming, etc. It's what the limits were of the production chain, so any colors beyond that REC-709 color space were clipped off in the video, and if you allow your screen to represent REC709 content outside the REC709 triangle, it is simply showing an error -- it cannot put color detail back which was clipped at the time of production. Put another way, REC-709 is 'accurate to what was authored in the Bluray'

DCI-P3 is a larger triangle which roughly represents the capability of film. This is the color space that movies are authored in for movie theaters -- unfortunately this extra color detail is lost when it is released on Bluray, but that data may be released when 4K/HDR Blurays are released for those films.

REC 2020 is an even larger triangle which gets significantly closer to the limits of human vision, but currently there are no TV's which can fully display REC 2020, and no content is mastered beyond DCI-P3 limits because of this.

Arguing that letting your screen go outside of REC 709 is "more accurate because it displays more colors" is analogous to your wife sending you to the store to get blue paint in a particular shade of blue that matches some blue furniture exactly, along with a color sample to make sure you get the right color. When you get to the store, you find the shade of blue that matches the sample, but you decide instead to purchase violet paint because it looked "more real" to you.

Yes, wide color gamut is great -- but if you enjoy the experience of content with a WCG, you should watch HDR content. Currently, that's limited to a few 4K HDR Blurays, and a few titles on Amazon and Netflix, and other streaming services. Right now, that isn't most content.

Thank you. You are one sharp calibration dude. =)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #50 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mpgxsvcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 8,712
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2763 Post(s)
Liked: 2459
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
Arguing that letting your screen go outside of REC 709 is "more accurate because it displays more colors" is analogous to your wife sending you to the store to get blue paint in a particular shade of blue that matches some blue furniture exactly, along with a color sample to make sure you get the right color. When you get to the store, you find the shade of blue that matches the sample, but you decide instead to purchase violet paint because it looked "more real" to you.
No one is arguing going outside of REC.709 with REC.709 content is more accurate. I am arguing that going for accurate seems pointless to me now that the TVs can display more colors and it looks better in “some” cases.

If you are a believer in sticking to the Spec and never exploring anything else outside of that then by all means go for it. However, accurate does not always mean better. It just simply means you are seeing what the director/Editor intended you to see.

I do not subscribe to the theory that the director/Editor knows what I like better than I do.

The analogy should be more like your wife saying “I like this shade of Blue but I know you hate it. Just get whatever color you like.” What she really means is that she will let you pick what you want but she is going to shame you for the rest of your life because you wouldn’t do exactly what she wants even though she really didn’t care what color you picked in the first place.

Last edited by mpgxsvcd; 04-11-2016 at 09:29 AM.
mpgxsvcd is offline  
post #51 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
No one is arguing going outside of REC.709 with REC.709 content is more accurate. I am arguing that going for accurate seems pointless to me now that the TVs can display more colors and it looks better in “some” cases.

If you are a believer in sticking to the Spec and never exploring anything else outside of that then by all means go for it. However, accurate does not always mean better. It just simply means you are seeing what the director/Editor intended you to see.

I do not subscribe to the theory that the director/Editor knows what I like better than I do.
And that's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to have, but keep in mind, adjusting settings to the way you like it, ignoring what meters say is not "calibration", it's "adjusting to taste".

Anyway, I'm hopeful that ultimately it will be possible to calibrate these screens to be accurate, which will make for a serious bargain for an accurate screen.
mpgxsvcd and shoman94 like this.
randompersonx is offline  
post #52 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 09:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mpgxsvcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 8,712
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2763 Post(s)
Liked: 2459
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
And that's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to have, but keep in mind, adjusting settings to the way you like it, ignoring what meters say is not "calibration", it's "adjusting to taste".

Anyway, I'm hopeful that ultimately it will be possible to calibrate these screens to be accurate, which will make for a serious bargain for an accurate screen.
I 100% agree with all of the statements in this post. I am not going to shame anyone for fully understanding what calibration means and entails, and then choosing to calibrate their display. I just don’t want everyone to say that if your screen isn’t calibrated to REC.709 then it is worthless for REC.709 material.

It is up to the user to choose what works best for them. However, they cannot say they have a calibrated display unless they have 100% calibrated the display to all of the specifications of REC.709. That includes watching the TV with local dimming turned off and also at the level of 100 Nits. For most people that is not a better experience when their TV is capable of so much more.
mpgxsvcd is offline  
post #53 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
beardontwalk123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Clear Lake, IA
Posts: 1,407
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1030 Post(s)
Liked: 666
2016/2017 Vizio P Series Calibration Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
And that's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to have, but keep in mind, adjusting settings to the way you like it, ignoring what meters say is not "calibration", it's "adjusting to taste".

Anyway, I'm hopeful that ultimately it will be possible to calibrate these screens to be accurate, which will make for a serious bargain for an accurate screen.
I 100% agree with all of the statements in this post. I am not going to shame anyone for fully understanding what calibration means and entails, and then choosing to calibrate their display. I just don?t want everyone to say that if your screen isn?t calibrated to REC.709 then it is worthless for REC.709 material.

It is up to the user to choose what works best for them. However, they cannot say they have a calibrated display unless they have 100% calibrated the display to all of the specifications of REC.709. That includes watching the TV with local dimming turned off and also at the level of 100 Nits. For most people that is not a better experience when their TV is capable of so much more.
I agree on all accounts also. I think that at the end of the day it's your set and you can do what you want...but at the same time with this being a calibration thread, there is indeed a standard set out for REC. 709 that people are also wanting to calibrate to, otherwise why bother with calibration at all and just tune your set to what looks best to you.
beardontwalk123 is offline  
post #54 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 10:50 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 6
P75 Calibration in Orange County CA

Not sure this is the right place for this question, but do you know of anyone that can properly calibrate my P75 in orange county, CA? I don't have the equipment or skills so I need help :-)
schek2001 is offline  
post #55 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 11:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
This gets into a complicated question because of the FALD backlight. For a non-dimming LCD, there would be no difference between the window or full field.

For a FALD screen, there is some debate as to the best way of doing it -- some people turn off local dimming, do the calibration, and then turn the dimming back on -- in which case, it wont matter if its window or full field.

Personally, I think you can get better results is using a larger window (20%?) with an APL pattern in the perimeter, or ideally, using patterns which would have a test window in the middle, and the rest of the screen as 45% grey -- though I haven't found any freely available patterns like that.

I used APL with 'Large Windows' from the AVS709 library, with FALD enabled on my 940c.


What is your opinion on the backlight? Off for all of calibration or just grayscale?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #56 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 11:57 AM
VBB
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 2,224
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1020 Post(s)
Liked: 872
It sounds like you cannot set the P to WCG in any mode other than DV, is that correct? That would be a real shame, especially for us 3D LUT users
VBB is offline  
post #57 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 12:03 PM
VBB
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 2,224
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1020 Post(s)
Liked: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
What is your opinion on the backlight? Off for all of calibration or just grayscale?
What I do with the 2015 M is leave Active LED enabled, but use the smallest possible window size in HCFR/madTPG (1%). A window this small does not trigger the local dimming, which means you can calibrate as if Active LED were set to disabled, but you account for any anomalies that it might bring with it. In my opinion, that is the best way. It's not an option for external patterns, like the AVS HD 709 disc, because it doesn't have windows that small. In addition to the 1% size, use a 100% white background.


The 2016 P might behave differently, so I welcome anyone's feedback.
VBB is offline  
post #58 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 12:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
It sounds like you cannot set the P to WCG in any mode other than DV, is that correct? That would be a real shame, especially for us 3D LUT users
No, you can only select RGB or YCbCr or Auto. Not really sure what Auto does whether it only switches between those two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
What I do with the 2015 M is leave Active LED enabled, but use the smallest possible window size in HCFR/madTPG (1%). A window this small does not trigger the local dimming, which means you can calibrate as if Active LED were set to disabled, but you account for any anomalies that it might bring with it. In my opinion, that is the best way. It's not an option for external patterns, like the AVS HD 709 disc, because it doesn't have windows that small. In addition to the 1% size, use a 100% white background.


The 2016 P might behave differently, so I welcome anyone's feedback.

Interesting... Can you put that window anywhere? When I did mine, even though I selected 100% the window was only about 25" diagonal in the top left. I used the Display as my extended desktop to my laptop screen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
post #59 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 12:27 PM
VBB
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 2,224
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1020 Post(s)
Liked: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
No, you can only select RGB or YCbCr or Auto. Not really sure what Auto does whether it only switches between those two.

Interesting... Can you put that window anywhere? When I did mine, even though I selected 100% the window was only about 25" diagonal in the top left. I used the Display as my extended desktop to my laptop screen.
If "Auto" behaves anything like on previous Vizios, it will always use YCbCr. If your input device is set to RGB, make sure you select that on the TV. "Auto" will not switch. Another tip for RGB users: On Vizios, "RGB" always means 0-255 (full).


The window should always show in the middle. I also use the TV as an extended desktop and have never had any issues with it. Maybe try setting display scaling to 100% for the Vizio.
JoinTheBattle likes this.
VBB is offline  
post #60 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 12:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shoman94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2372 Post(s)
Liked: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
If "Auto" behaves anything like on previous Vizios, it will always use YCbCr. If your input device is set to RGB, make sure you select that on the TV. "Auto" will not switch. Another tip for RGB users: On Vizios, "RGB" always means 0-255 (full).


The window should always show in the middle. I also use the TV as an extended desktop and have never had any issues with it. Maybe try setting display scaling to 100% for the Vizio.


Thanks I'll try. I was going to try the CCast function in HCFR based on the previous conversations on this thread seeing as how my triangle is off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
shoman94 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off