2016/2017 Vizio P Series Calibration Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Thanks I'll try. I was going to try the CCast function in HCFR based on the previous conversations on this thread seeing as how my triangle is off.
Looking at your triangle, it looks incredibly linear for close to default CMS. You only made changes to Saturation, correct? It also looks as if it should be fairly easy to move at least red and blue up to the correct spots at 100%. That's a big improvement over previous sets, as it seems that the Rec. 709 coverage is now slightly larger. What I really wanted from a new Vizio, though, was a way to put it in its native WCG, no matter the content (not to watch it like that, but for calibration purposes).
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post #62 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Looking at your triangle, it looks incredibly linear for close to default CMS. You only made changes to Saturation, correct? It also looks as if it should be fairly easy to move at least red and blue up to the correct spots at 100%. That's a big improvement over previous sets, as it seems that the Rec. 709 coverage is now slightly larger. What I really wanted from a new Vizio, though, was a way to put it in its native WCG, no matter the content (not to watch it like that, but for calibration purposes).
So should I move saturation back to default and adjust hue then saturation then hue again and saturation again?

Also I didn't change anything in the output of the tv for the connection. I just plugged in the laptop and selected the correct input and extended the desktop. I used 0-255 for the range on HCFR.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
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post #63 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
So should I move saturation back to default and adjust hue then saturation then hue again and saturation again?

Also I didn't change anything in the output of the tv for the connection. I just plugged in the laptop and selected the correct input and extended the desktop. I used 0-255 for the range on HCFR.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Well, as far as the range, make sure you look at some brightness and contrast patterns via the laptop. You don't want to clip anything above 16 and below 235. Vizios don't show BtB and WtW, so don't worry about that. 50 Brightness and 50 Contrast should be spot on, if everything else in the video chain is set correctly.


I saw posterization mentioned by another user when using the CMS controls. Sounds very much like the M, where this was caused by adjusting the "Brightness" setting for the individual colors in the Color Tuner (RGBYCM). It should be safe to touch both "Saturation" and "Hue".
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post #64 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Well, as far as the range, make sure you look at some brightness and contrast patterns via the laptop. You don't want to clip anything above 16 and below 235. Vizios don't show BtB and WtW, so don't worry about that. 50 Brightness and 50 Contrast should be spot on, if everything else in the video chain is set correctly.


I saw posterization mentioned by another user when using the CMS controls. Sounds very much like the M, where this was caused by adjusting the "Brightness" setting for the individual colors in the Color Tuner (RGBYCM). It should be safe to touch both "Saturation" and "Hue".
Since you're familiar with the Vizio menu I'm wondering if you can give me a brief run as to what certain setting will do to the triangle? I'm assuming that's the overall target.

Color tuner:
Hue
Saturation
Brightness

and also what color and tint will do on the main screen. I thank you for being patient with my novice abilities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #65 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Since you're familiar with the Vizio menu I'm wondering if you can give me a brief run as to what certain setting will do to the triangle? I'm assuming that's the overall target.

Color tuner:
Hue
Saturation
Brightness

and also what color and tint will do on the main screen. I thank you for being patient with my novice abilities.
I find it best to observe the effects of all three settings in HCFR's real-time view. To lower the dE, you will have to adjust all three (not necessarily in any particular order). Make sure HCFR is set to HSV levels. That should make it easier to adjust in real-time. Normally, you would leave Color and Tint at defaults. You could try changing Color to different values, up or down, and then run a sweep in HCFR each time to see if it makes things better or worse than default.
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post #66 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
What is your opinion on the backlight? Off for all of calibration or just grayscale?
As I said above, I do all of my calibration with the Local Dimming enabled using the AVS709 APL Large Window patterns.
Either way you do it, all calibration should be done with either Local Dimming off, or all with Local Dimming on.

With my 940c, I've found that there is some shift between calibrating it with dimming off and then checking the calibration with dimming enabled, and in my opinion, it makes more sense to calibrate in the mode that I will actually be using it in -- there's no reason I would ever choose to watch with dimming disabled.

To some extent, calibrating it with dimming enabled will make it more accurate for darker content (movies), and calibrating it with dimming disabled will likely make it better for brighter content (sports). I don't watch sports.
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post #67 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I 100% agree with all of the statements in this post. I am not going to shame anyone for fully understanding what calibration means and entails, and then choosing to calibrate their display. I just don’t want everyone to say that if your screen isn’t calibrated to REC.709 then it is worthless for REC.709 material.

It is up to the user to choose what works best for them. However, they cannot say they have a calibrated display unless they have 100% calibrated the display to all of the specifications of REC.709. That includes watching the TV with local dimming turned off and also at the level of 100 Nits. For most people that is not a better experience when their TV is capable of so much more.
I don't see any reason why having Local Dimming enabled in any way violates the specifications of REC.709. Yes, there will be blooming in some cases, but calibrating with APL patterns is going to be quite reasonable for adhering to REC. 709.

As far as the 100 Nits level, I would both agree and disagree --
1) The accepted range is 100-120, so calibrating for 120 (20% brighter) is acceptable.
2) This calibration is assuming that you are watching in a dark room. Anything other than a dark room is going to be a compromise on calibration anyway.
Because of that, I would say that in a dark room, 120 is correct, and anything else is somewhat wrong, but 'acceptable' if you really prefer to deviate.
Outside of a dark room, of course it is acceptable to use a higher brightness, since there is obviously a much larger impact on viewing conditions from bright ambient light than any "error" in raising the brightness.

I don't know about you, but most of my viewing when I actually care about accuracy is at night, with the lights off.

Other people are different ... My uncle seems to prefer keeping his house lit up like a Best Buy, with all lights fully bright, even when watching movies at night. Obviously for him, 120 nits is out of the question.


And with that said, 120 nits on a 75" screen in a dark room is not exactly "dim". My 940c has no problem generating 1200 nits with HDR content, but for non-HDR content, 120 is the limit at night.
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post #68 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 03:44 PM
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Rec. 709 falls within the P3 gamut, right. Can't the display, display whats being fed to it?

How does it work when casting, I'm assuming the Cast input is calibrated to the P3 gamut. If so then any 1080p programming on NETFLIX or movies on Vudu are inaccurate when it comes to color?
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post #69 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 04:32 PM
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I assume I can't use any of these calibration settings (e.g. the only way is to really have my set calibrated on its own)?
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post #70 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 05:34 PM
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I assume I can't use any of these calibration settings (e.g. the only way is to really have my set calibrated on its own)?
You can likely copy someone else's calibration settings for all values except for the 11-point, and get somewhat closer to accurate than out-of-box. In general, it looks like the white balance is heavy on Green and Blue on everyone's screens to varying degrees, so turning that down will get it closer to correct. 11-point's are going to be completely different from one screen to the next, so you shouldn't bother copying those.

Adjusting Contrast/Brightness (White level/Black level) is easy to do without any specialized tools, and you should just do that yourself.

These youtube videos may not be 100% accurate but they will be close enough.

Use these for adjusting white level -- you should be able to see 233 flash, with 235 not flash on white and all 3 colors. It is acceptable to allow numbers higher than 235 flash on some colors if necessary to allow all 3 colors to have at least 233 flash, but you should use the minimal setting that allows at least 233 flashing on all 3 colors:

Use this for adjusting black level: 16 Must not flash. 17-18 should flash but it is acceptable if they do not, it is more important that 16 does not flash. 19 Absolutely must flash. Most likely, you will be able to make it so 16 does not flash, but 17 does. This adjustment should be done in a very dark room, and it is acceptable for you to get right up on the screen to look for the minor light differences.


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post #71 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post

I saw posterization mentioned by another user when using the CMS controls. Sounds very much like the M, where this was caused by adjusting the "Brightness" setting for the individual colors in the Color Tuner (RGBYCM). It should be safe to touch both "Saturation" and "Hue".
If that's the case, then this is great news for P Series calibration. The Delta Luminance numbers shown in the reports people have posted look fine, so there shouldn't be any reason to touch the Brightness setting on the CMS tuning, the Saturation and Hue are where the biggest errors are.
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post #72 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randompersonx View Post
You can likely copy someone else's calibration settings for all values except for the 11-point, and get somewhat closer to accurate than out-of-box. In general, it looks like the white balance is heavy on Green and Blue on everyone's screens to varying degrees, so turning that down will get it closer to correct. 11-point's are going to be completely different from one screen to the next, so you shouldn't bother copying those.

Adjusting Contrast/Brightness (White level/Black level) is easy to do without any specialized tools, and you should just do that yourself.

These youtube videos may not be 100% accurate but they will be close enough.

Use these for adjusting white level -- you should be able to see 233 flash, with 235 not flash on white and all 3 colors. It is acceptable to allow numbers higher than 235 flash on some colors if necessary to allow all 3 colors to have at least 233 flash, but you should use the minimal setting that allows at least 233 flashing on all 3 colors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgEBrKHqInQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxHIK9wtTPw

Use this for adjusting black level: 16 Must not flash. 17-18 should flash but it is acceptable if they do not, it is more important that 16 does not flash. 19 Absolutely must flash. Most likely, you will be able to make it so 16 does not flash, but 17 does. This adjustment should be done in a very dark room, and it is acceptable for you to get right up on the screen to look for the minor light differences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TI9f1zxucw
Wow, thanks so much...will have to give these a try
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post #73 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 06:28 PM
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For regular SDR rec709/bt1886 calibration I got excellent results using 18% window patterns with FALD turned on. If you calibrate with it turned off and then turn it on you'll get vastly different results than if you calibrated with it on.
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post #74 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
For regular SDR rec709/bt1886 calibration I got excellent results using 18% window patterns with FALD turned on. If you calibrate with it turned off and then turn it on you'll get vastly different results than if you calibrated with it on.
Hey Tyler! Would the equal energy patterns from Spears and Munsil work good with FALD on? There is a pretty big difference between on and off but I was worried I will mess up the FALD by calibrating with it on.....I feel like the FALD stands in where it needs to based of our FALD off calibration results and that calibrating the set with it on would really mess with results......any input would be appreciated.
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post #75 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
I find it best to observe the effects of all three settings in HCFR's real-time view. To lower the dE, you will have to adjust all three (not necessarily in any particular order). Make sure HCFR is set to HSV levels. That should make it easier to adjust in real-time. Normally, you would leave Color and Tint at defaults. You could try changing Color to different values, up or down, and then run a sweep in HCFR each time to see if it makes things better or worse than default.
Although I have an M, I think this post should still apply as these sets seem so much alike in this department.
In my last calibration I decided to leave CMS alone as I was under dE 3 for pretty much every color without touching it. One more reason for it was that any change I made in CMS improved the primaries\secondaries dE but color checker dE and most importantly skin tones just went up through the roof. I haven't touched the Color or Tint settings, though.
I'm trying to understand how to read the HSV graphs. So if I look at the 4 columns, left to right, what I see is Hue, Saturation, V (Brightness)?
Below 100% I have to raise the value from 0, and above 100% I should lower it? If that's the case it should really simplify the tweaking of the CMS controls.

I'm quite happy with my current calibration, but I'm planning to do it again later when I move and the TV also moves to a darker room.

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post #76 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
For regular SDR rec709/bt1886 calibration I got excellent results using 18% window patterns with FALD turned on. If you calibrate with it turned off and then turn it on you'll get vastly different results than if you calibrated with it on.
Could you please clarify if you are using APL at all or just 18% window size is good enough?

I'm thinking with this display, it seems the window luminance is not automatically limited, even with FALD enabled, so APL doesn't matter. But I can't see a downside to using it, so will probably do 18% windows with 18% APL patterns
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post #77 of 3748 Old 04-11-2016, 10:54 PM
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Spent some time on this tonight... way past my bed time. 5 am is coming fast.
CCast gave me a headache. I could only do Grayscale with it. Compared my HDMI and CCast on Grayscale and it was the same.

How does this look to the specialists...

I'll update my post in my sig in the evening.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+

Last edited by shoman94; 04-12-2016 at 08:41 AM.
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post #78 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 01:44 AM
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Although I'm not a specialist or a pro, I'd say that looks pretty damn good for the most important part of the gamut (75%).
How does the color checker look? As that's actually what really makes colors you see on the screen accurate.
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post #79 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
Although I'm not a specialist or a pro, I'd say that looks pretty damn good for the most important part of the gamut (75%).
How does the color checker look? As that's actually what really makes colors you see on the screen accurate.
What's the color checker... Lol?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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@shoman94
It is the 2nd from last in the View drop down box. (where you select grey scale and primaries).
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post #81 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
@shoman94
It is the 2nd from last in the View drop down box. (where you select grey scale and primaries).
Probably one of the only things I didn't run... Lol. I'd have to set the meter back up for that. Not sure if that will happen today/tonight. I have a bunch of other graphs I'll be posting though.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #82 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Probably one of the only things I didn't run... Lol. I'd have to set the meter back up for that. Not sure if that will happen today/tonight. I have a bunch of other graphs I'll be posting though.

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You always want to run the "Full Tilt Boogie" in HCFR to see how everything turned out. That includes the Color Checker. You can also go into the options and change which color checker HCFR runs. There are many different ones. Default should be fine, though.
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post #83 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
I'm trying to understand how to read the HSV graphs. So if I look at the 4 columns, left to right, what I see is Hue, Saturation, V (Brightness)?
Below 100% I have to raise the value from 0, and above 100% I should lower it? If that's the case it should really simplify the tweaking of the CMS controls.
That's how I remember it, but I haven't done a manual calibration in a while. I've moved on to 3D LUTs
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post #84 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 01:22 PM
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Hi Henry! Someone in another thread is basically saying that the "P" series is the only "future proof" tv offered today. Thoughts on that?
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post #85 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:20 PM
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Poor man's calibration with AVSHD 709 DVD

Hello all,
Fantastic thread first of all!

I tried to calibrate to Rec.709 (basic calibration) with just the AVSHD 709 DVD.
I'd appreciate it if you would be kind enough to share a few pointers:
For the white clipping should I stop when 235 flashes or let the higher numbers flash?
For the color and tint calibration I used the colour tuner to turn off Red and Green thereby mimicking a blue filter. Is this valid?
I noticed that I have to get the color to 61 and Tint to 1 to get the flashing rectangles to blend in.

Should I try and copy someone else's 2 pt grayscale as well?

Would really appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks

Vizio P65-C1
Marantz AVR 1604
Cambridge Audio Aero 2
Cambridge Audio Aero 5 Center Speaker
PS3
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post #86 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:25 PM
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When sending YCbCr to the P-series it will clip above white. If you want to maintain above white you need to send the display RGB.

Tyler Pruitt - Technical Liaison - CalMAN

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post #87 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Hi Henry! Someone in another thread is basically saying that the "P" series is the only "future proof" tv offered today. Thoughts on that?
Otto, my man! That's dangerous territory I'm a huge Vizio fan, and I love my M, but I'm holding off on the P for now for various reasons. I will buy one eventually, though.
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post #88 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Otto, my man! That's dangerous territory I'm a huge Vizio fan, and I love my M, but I'm holding off on the P for now for various reasons. I will buy one eventually, though.
Why fight the inevitable... Lol

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #89 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Otto, my man! That's dangerous territory I'm a huge Vizio fan, and I love my M, but I'm holding off on the P for now for various reasons. I will buy one eventually, though.
Yeah. I get nervous when someone makes claims like that. It's almost tempting the gods to start having quality issues crop up after 6 months or so.
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post #90 of 3748 Old 04-12-2016, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
When sending YCbCr to the P-series it will clip above white. If you want to maintain above white you need to send the display RGB.
Tyler, can you confirm that RGB won't clip BtB and WtW? It does on the old P and current M, if I'm not mistaken.
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