eeColor + CalMAN Enthusiast Calibration Questions - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 96 Old 05-31-2016, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
You shouldn't have to do a grayscale, just set your 100 IRE RGB balance. The issue with setting your 100% white point, is that the 100 IRE setting in the 21 point control doesn't really work.
Are displays are non linear so imho the grayscale needs a little help.

You may not have to do any more that just set your 100 IRE RGB high, try it and see how it works. With my EG9600 all I had to do was use my High RGB settings to set my 100 IRE white point. However that was using argyllCMS/dispcalGUI/madTPG and eecolor.

I have found that argyllCMS and supporting software/hardware will give the best on paper results. However the results you get from Calman should be on a par with a pro calibration and will please you, its just tweaking your GS when using Calman may help your Luminace in the lower range of the GS.
Just to be clear the less you have to use your RGB GS controls the better off you will be.

ss
I set the 100 IRE using only the High RGB controls (not the 20pt controls) and got the DeltaE for 100 IRE down to 0.2 before running the profile.

I'm still confused on if you are saying I should adjust the lower luminance of the grayscale using the manual 20pt controls AFTER the profile is created? Or before I run the profile?

I'm just not sure if I'm allowed/can make manual adjustments using the TV's GS 20pt settings once the Lut is created or will that throw everything off?

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post #32 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
I set the 100 IRE using only the High RGB controls (not the 20pt controls) and got the DeltaE for 100 IRE down to 0.2 before running the profile.

I'm still confused on if you are saying I should adjust the lower luminance of the grayscale using the manual 20pt controls AFTER the profile is created? Or before I run the profile?

I'm just not sure if I'm allowed/can make manual adjustments using the TV's GS 20pt settings once the Lut is created or will that throw everything off?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Good dE.2

How did the profile/3DLUT turn out.?

Tweaking your 20 point GS shouldn't throw everything off if you are careful. Just don't tweak 100 IRE.

You may not have to tweak (small moves) GS, and you are better off not tweaking as long as everything is within there limits.

Here are some basic pre profiling settings using High RGB.
Drop down Red (to balance RGB if Red is to high) and maybe Blue just a tad up. At-least that is what I have to do with Red High and Blue High maybe. My guess is you have done that because you have a 100 IRE dE 2000 of 0.2
Just with that limited movement of Red and maybe Blue you should have a average GS dE2000 of about 1.0
Now its time for your calibration software (Calman) to take over by profiling your EF9500 and then making a 3DLUT to upload to your eecolor. If the calibration software has done its job then you home free, if not then that's when you may want to tweak your GS.
The easiest way to check your GS is to use a 21 point step grayscale chart, if all steps are gray and a nice graduation from low to high then you are probably good to go.

ss

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post #33 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

How did the profile/3DLUT turn out.?
The colors came out excellent and measured near perfect during validation. But the grayscale did not come out well at all.

Those grayscale pictures I posted above are post 3D lut measurements. Way off from what my specified 2.25 Gamma was set to.

That's why I was asking if I'm allowed to make adjustments to the GS after the 3D lut is applied.
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post #34 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 07:09 PM
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The correct method is to adjust the least amount of display settings as possible prior to the cLUT creation. If you must make corrections due to display non-linearity or deficiency it needs to be done prior to 3DLUT creation not after the viewing the verification results. The gamma issues seen in the picture show pertinent issues other than minor GS adjustments.
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post #35 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
The correct method is to adjust the least amount of display settings as possible prior to the cLUT creation. If you must make corrections due to display non-linearity or deficiency it needs to be done prior to 3DLUT creation not after the viewing the verification results. The gamma issues seen in the picture show pertinent issues other than minor GS adjustments.
I'm going to do a quick 5 minute "Lightning" profile with CalMAN tomorrow and see if there is an issue causing the GS problems I can correct before re-running a longer profile.
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post #36 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 08:35 PM
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That's a good idea. Find out why your gamma plot looks like a Sawtooth waveform. Seems like it being effected by ASBL, it's not normal whatever is happening.

sillysally knows all about oled issues. He can help you figure it out.

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post #37 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
That's a good idea. Find out why your gamma plot looks like a Sawtooth waveform. Seems like it being effected by ASBL, it's not normal whatever is happening.

sillysally knows all about oled issues. He can help you figure it out.

So for the record I am definitely not crazy....a correct 3D Lut profiling should not have a GS/Gamma Curve THAT erratic?
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post #38 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
The colors came out excellent and measured near perfect during validation. But the grayscale did not come out well at all.

Those grayscale pictures I posted above are post 3D lut measurements. Way off from what my specified 2.25 Gamma was set to.

That's why I was asking if I'm allowed to make adjustments to the GS after the 3D lut is applied.
Here are screen shots of before and after, for both GS and ColorChecker.
The first set is what the report showed for GS and Colorchecker after I loaded the completed 3DLUT
The second report set is after tweaking the GS.

You will see I was able to improve my Blue Lumanice slightly, and because of that my High dE error is lower.

ss
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post #39 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Here are screen shots of before and after, for both GS and ColorChecker.
The first set is what the report showed for GS and Colorchecker after I loaded the completed 3DLUT
The second report set is after tweaking the GS.

You will see I was able to improve my Blue Lumanice slightly, and because of that my High dE error is lower.

ss
I was just hunting down some of your "masterful" examples of great GS for this chap.


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post #40 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
So for the record I am definitely not crazy....a correct 3D Lut profiling should not have a GS/Gamma Curve THAT erratic?
No you are not crazy

There are other things at play here regarding your GS and Gamma apart from the 3DLUT corrections the software is performing. They will have to do with settings chosen in software, and your equipment used DUT/LMD/TPG. I would focus on your pre-calibration settings and specifics regarding your particular display.
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post #41 of 96 Old 06-01-2016, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
I was just hunting down some of your "masterful" examples of great GS for this chap.


Ahhh.

The chap in your Avatar, reminds me of what my Dad looked like when I was a kid.

ss

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post #42 of 96 Old 06-02-2016, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Here are screen shots of before and after, for both GS and ColorChecker.
The first set is what the report showed for GS and Colorchecker after I loaded the completed 3DLUT
The second report set is after tweaking the GS.

You will see I was able to improve my Blue Lumanice slightly, and because of that my High dE error is lower.

ss
Quote:
Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
I was just hunting down some of your "masterful" examples of great GS for this chap.


Thanks.

One last question before I try another profile:

How do I set a Gamma Curve target like the one in your "After" picture, Sally?
When I try the "Custom Gamma Curve" option in CalMAN it only presents "S-shaped" as an option. Is there a way with Enthusiast to literally draw/plot out the targeted Gamma Curve (yellow line) to my specific liking? Or does one have to have a higher level CalMAN license to do such a thing?
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post #43 of 96 Old 06-02-2016, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks.

One last question before I try another profile:

How do I set a Gamma Curve target like the one in your "After" picture, Sally?
When I try the "Custom Gamma Curve" option in CalMAN it only presents "S-shaped" as an option. Is there a way with Enthusiast to literally draw/plot out the targeted Gamma Curve (yellow line) to my specific liking? Or does one have to have a higher level CalMAN license to do such a thing?
The gamut target editor is a seperate app that ships with CalMAN. You should have access to it with the enthusiast license.

That said, I believe the above graph is just a power with a very small black offset.
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post #44 of 96 Old 06-02-2016, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post
The gamut target editor is a seperate app that ships with CalMAN. You should have access to it with the enthusiast license.

That said, I believe the above graph is just a power with a very small black offset.
Thanks. I figured it out. As you said, to get such a target curve I just need to enter a very small black offset. 0.0001 seems to give a similar curve. I'll be doing some quick profiles tonight or tomorrow and see how things behave. Spent most of my available time today playing with my PC HDMI settings for streaming. Not having a dedicated graphics card makes it hard to run everything how I want for streaming purposes. But that's best left for another day (and the guys in the HTPC forums).

Also, I did find the Gamma Curve editor. Neat feature I didn't even know about. I'm probably just scratching the surface of what CalMAN can do.

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post #45 of 96 Old 06-02-2016, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
The gamut target editor is a seperate app that ships with CalMAN. You should have access to it with the enthusiast license.

That said, I believe the above graph is just a power with a very small black offset.
It started out as a power gamma, but after tweaking the low end (mainly 5 IRE) it ended up with the "very small black offset", as you picked up on.

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post #46 of 96 Old 06-03-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks guys.

Yea, I forgot to include in my post that CalMAN's full field pattern insertion was on (50% IRE every 60s). Plus, I have ABSL disabled in the Service Menu.
I have some free time tonight so I am going to load the profile in CalMAN and play around with it...try to get myself acquainted with all the subtle changes and settings.

Assuming the profile is correct/the reads were accurate and the grayscale measured correctly, I should be able to fix the grayscale/gamma issue without re-profiling? Or should I run a "quick profile" and see if it comes out correctly this time?


50ire might be to high for the Full Field pattern insertion, I would leave it at default. What size patterns are you using for the normal patches?

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post #47 of 96 Old 06-03-2016, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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50ire might be to high for the Full Field pattern insertion, I would leave it at default. What size patterns are you using for the normal patches?
10% windows
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post #48 of 96 Old 06-03-2016, 04:01 PM
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10% windows
Having ASBL turned off in your EF9500, there is no reason to use Calman's Full Field pattern insertion.

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post #49 of 96 Old 06-04-2016, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Ran a Lightning Lut (100 reads) and this time the 3D Lut Profile created was a lot closer to my target gamma curve. However, there is still room for improvement, mainly room for my pre-profile technique to improve which I am working on.

Question: Say the gamma after the profiling is finished is good but not great...can I manually adjust the 20pt controls in the TV lightly to fine tune any large dips or peaks AFTER the 3D Lut is applied? Or will this throw off the entire profile?
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post #50 of 96 Old 06-06-2016, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Ran a Lightning Lut (100 reads) and this time the 3D Lut Profile created was a lot closer to my target gamma curve. However, there is still room for improvement, mainly room for my pre-profile technique to improve which I am working on.

Question: Say the gamma after the profiling is finished is good but not great...can I manually adjust the 20pt controls in the TV lightly to fine tune any large dips or peaks AFTER the 3D Lut is applied? Or will this throw off the entire profile?
Yes, improve your Pre-Calibration settings methods is a good idea.

The answer to your question about Post(3DLUT)Calibration adjustments to your internal display settings was answered I do believe by a few different people. Maybe this thread or a different one you posted in.

I am getting ready to Re-Calibrate my favorite TV so ... here attached is some example of my Plasma panel Pre-Cal settings. I have only adjusted RGB gain of R/B for 100%W. I figured to show you this cause your display is causing you doubt as to what to expect. Next I too will calibrate with a 3DLUT using eeColor ... only I use LightSpace for this task
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post #51 of 96 Old 06-07-2016, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Here are screen shots of before and after, for both GS and ColorChecker.
The first set is what the report showed for GS and Colorchecker after I loaded the completed 3DLUT
The second report set is after tweaking the GS.

You will see I was able to improve my Blue Lumanice slightly, and because of that my High dE error is lower.

ss
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
It started out as a power gamma, but after tweaking the low end (mainly 5 IRE) it ended up with the "very small black offset", as you picked up on.

ss
Quote:
Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
Yes, improve your Pre-Calibration settings methods is a good idea.

The answer to your question about Post(3DLUT)Calibration adjustments to your internal display settings was answered I do believe by a few different people. Maybe this thread or a different one you posted in.
I think (I hope) I finally have a good grasp of what to do and how to let the AutoCal 3D Lut Profile take control after slight tweaks before hand (mainly to 100% W). But where I am still a little hazing is the Post-3D Lut tweaking.

From re-reading sally's posts quoted above, it sounds like he ran the Lut Profile using a straight power law then want back and re-profiled the Lut for a slight black offset to produce the desired ramping out effect WHILE also touching up the 5IRE control on his TV. Meaning, it is 'OK' to do a tiny adjustment to the low end post-3D Lut application? But don't go too far off the reservation and try to touch up anything else on the grayscale using the TV adjustments?

Thanks guys. And thanks for the patience!
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post #52 of 96 Old 06-07-2016, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
Yes, improve your Pre-Calibration settings methods is a good idea.

The answer to your question about Post(3DLUT)Calibration adjustments to your internal display settings was answered I do believe by a few different people. Maybe this thread or a different one you posted in.

I am getting ready to Re-Calibrate my favorite TV so ... here attached is some example of my Plasma panel Pre-Cal settings. I have only adjusted RGB gain of R/B for 100%W. I figured to show you this cause your display is causing you doubt as to what to expect. Next I too will calibrate with a 3DLUT using eeColor ... only I use LightSpace for this task
Right now Lightspace is were its at for Rec 709 calibration, imho.

I pre set my service menu white balance using quick profile (grayscale only) in LS, following each read so I could balance using the High/Low RGB settings for Warm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
I think (I hope) I finally have a good grasp of what to do and how to let the AutoCal 3D Lut Profile take control after slight tweaks before hand (mainly to 100% W). But where I am still a little hazing is the Post-3D Lut tweaking.

From re-reading sally's posts quoted above, it sounds like he ran the Lut Profile using a straight power law then want back and re-profiled the Lut for a slight black offset to produce the desired ramping out effect WHILE also touching up the 5IRE control on his TV. Meaning, it is 'OK' to do a tiny adjustment to the low end post-3D Lut application? But don't go too far off the reservation and try to touch up anything else on the grayscale using the TV adjustments?

Thanks guys. And thanks for the patience!
Yes that is what I do, but you have to understand how your calibration software reacts to your pre settings.
And yes I use Green in both my service menu settings and user menu settings.
However using Green in the user menu is very tricky.
Two things you must look for when adjusting Green.
1. IRE 5 is very unstable, so you should get that as stable as possible. Your D3 may or may not give repeatable readings a 5 IRE.
2. You also have to make sure your settings haven't made your picture dimmer.

Because of the above, I suggest to anyone learning how to calibrate to stick with the basic's.
Calman and eecolor using the basic's will give you a pro type of calibration.

ss

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post #53 of 96 Old 06-07-2016, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
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I'm going to do a quick 5 minute "Lightning" profile with CalMAN tomorrow and see if there is an issue causing the GS problems I can correct before re-running a longer profile.
Lightning LUT workflows are only available in Calman Studio Versions
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post #54 of 96 Old 06-07-2016, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Lightning LUT workflows are only available in Calman Studio Versions
It's part of the standard 3D Lut workflow. When choosing a profile after pressing the Autocal button, the option is there along with time based and point based profiles.

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post #55 of 96 Old 06-08-2016, 11:13 AM
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So, I am really curious have you performed a Lightning (5min.) LUT using this method?

I have Calman E. and the Lighting LUT workflow is included but gives error when you try to use it.

And, I have never tried to use it via the 3DLUT cube workflow because I do not have a professional display like FSI (AM/CM/DM) or Sony PVM/BVM quality level.

If you did successfully use Lightning (5min.) LUT then how did it work for your OLED panel. Can you show before/after pics?


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post #56 of 96 Old 06-08-2016, 12:52 PM
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So, I am really curious have you performed a Lightning (5min.) LUT using this method?

I have Calman E. and the Lighting LUT workflow is included but gives error when you try to use it.

And, I have never tried to use it via the 3DLUT cube workflow because I do not have a professional display like FSI (AM/CM/DM) or Sony PVM/BVM quality level.
If you did successfully use Lightning (5min.) LUT then how did it work for your OLED panel. Can you show before/after pics?


I was able to run lighting LUTs workflow within Calman enthusiast on a plasma display within the last couple months. It did not hang up or anything. Ran till completion. Given the nonlinearity of my display, it didn't really help but did satisfy my curiosity. As the instructions say, its for displays that are pretty linear to start with.
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post #57 of 96 Old 06-08-2016, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
So, I am really curious have you performed a Lightning (5min.) LUT using this method?



I have Calman E. and the Lighting LUT workflow is included but gives error when you try to use it.



And, I have never tried to use it via the 3DLUT cube workflow because I do not have a professional display like FSI (AM/CM/DM) or Sony PVM/BVM quality level.



If you did successfully use Lightning (5min.) LUT then how did it work for your OLED panel. Can you show before/after pics?







You can still do a lightning LUT using the regular 3D lut workflow

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post #58 of 96 Old 06-08-2016, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
You can still do a lightning LUT using the regular 3D lut workflow
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
I was able to run lighting LUTs workflow within Calman enthusiast on a plasma display within the last couple months. It did not hang up or anything. Ran till completion. Given the nonlinearity of my display, it didn't really help but did satisfy my curiosity. As the instructions say, its for displays that are pretty linear to start with.
Thanks to you guys for clarifying this with me.
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post #59 of 96 Old 01-29-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Set contrast at 77, brightness around 50, color 51, OLED light at 42.
Hi,

Can I ask how you arrived at those settings?


BTW I had various issues with Calman, eecolor, and the EF9500 until I followed advice for a different OLED I found on a SpectraCal forum. I use insertion points every 10 seconds and ABL 18 patterns. Now I get expected results.

I don't know which part of that did the trick and I'm too lazy to play around and find out since it takes so long to experiment. Likely insertion points every 10 seconds is overkill, but I'm not changing the formula now!

IMO straight 2.2 power law looks exactly right on most sources with true blacks. Since there's six slots I generated a few different gamma curves to switch around, but always return to 2.2 as the most accurate looking. Surprisingly on my unit the 2.4 gamma setting measures almost exactly 2.2 - not just average but a straight line.

Last edited by dbillen; 01-29-2017 at 01:13 PM.
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post #60 of 96 Old 01-29-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post
Hi,

Can I ask how you arrived at those settings?


BTW I had various issues with Calman, eecolor, and the EF9500 until I followed advice for a different OLED I found on a SpectraCal forum. I use insertion points every 10 seconds and ABL 18 patterns. Now I get expected results.

I don't know which part of that did the trick and I'm too lazy to play around and find out since it takes so long to experiment. Likely insertion points every 10 seconds is overkill, but I'm not changing the formula now!

IMO straight 2.2 power law looks exactly right on most sources with true blacks. Since there's six slots I generated a few different gamma curves to switch around, but always return to 2.2 as the most accurate looking. Surprisingly on my unit the 2.4 gamma setting measures almost exactly 2.2 - not just average but a straight line.
The EF9500 isn't a linear TV so I use those settings among others to get as close to Linear for RGB placement, using high/low RGB settings.

Yes 2.2 is the best setting in the EF9500. But has not much to do with your "true blacks".

I don't use a APL background because it can interfere with my black level.
insertion points are Calman's way of stopping ASBL, and yes if you can't turn off internally as I do then yes by all means use the insertion points.
Also if Calman has a option for white drift turn it on. Are EF9500 actually will increase in peak white.

ss

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