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post #61 of 96 Old 02-04-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
The EF9500 isn't a linear TV so I use those settings among others to get as close to Linear for RGB placement, using high/low RGB settings.

Yes 2.2 is the best setting in the EF9500. But has not much to do with your "true blacks".

I don't use a APL background because it can interfere with my black level.
insertion points are Calman's way of stopping ASBL, and yes if you can't turn off internally as I do then yes by all means use the insertion points.
Also if Calman has a option for white drift turn it on. Are EF9500 actually will increase in peak white.

ss
Well as it turns out I thought I was finally getting good results but every calibration would finally make it to some scene with unacceptable levels of banding in the form of noisy "posterization". Not neurotically unacceptable either, but like - my wife couldn't watch it.

Here's what finally worked I can say after not just pattern testing but view-testing for a few days a lot of material. I'm not posing as an expert here, but just passing along my experience:

- Your OLED and contrast levels.

- Regular gamut (based on the idea that there's a little more range available from 16-240 in pure colors if the device can do it, and tests show it can).

- Gamma 2.4 setting.

In spite of your advice I was still too lazy to test different pattern types that were working so:

- ABL 25 w/ insertions 1 second every 10 seconds at the default level.

With that testing showed gamma to be actually 2.3 so clean the test line almost overlayed the marker line straight across. I wanted to do a tight 20-point calibration so the eecolor wouldn't try to do it even though I prefer to normally be more minimalist. So:

- Calibrated all 20 points as accurately as possible using the close-to-native-as-possible 2.3 gamma target.

At this point the pre-check is so accurate I kinda had to wonder why even bother doing the cube. But, knowing there's more going on than is revealed by a precheck I:

- Generated the tables, not using Calman, but using DisplayCAL instead and used the default ~1200 points. Since the underlying calibration was so accurate I generated 4 presets relative and absolute, two version of each including and excluding the calibration, but the absolute with calibration was fantastic. I've checked visually everything I can think of, multiple input sources, and none of the noise.

I don't want to try again with more points. Testing would show more accuracy, but banding and artifacts seem to get worse with more points as I guess the table generator tries to force-fix little anomalies. The display is good enough not to require it. I think more points could do some good maybe if I was using Light Space and had those kinds of tools available, but for personal use that's too much money to justify. (I'm a programmer so I've thought about finding time to help add some more options to Argyll).


Of interest to someone reading and thinking about getting one of these boxes: You can barely perceive a difference after the good 20 point calibration when you turn the 3d lut on and off. There seems to be a boost in blue lum, and some increased saturation in flesh tones but you'd never know it was off without doing an A/B.

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post #62 of 96 Old 02-05-2017, 12:47 PM
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I know probably nobody's reading this LOL, but here's something else:

I tried to do a new profile with Argyll/DisplayCAL with all things identical except many more readings (4K+).

Same LUT generation parameters, full of garbage, esp in dark colors. I don't know if it's a DisplayCAL issue or because it think it has the data to try finer/darker adjustments or what. Even if I change the parameters and generate the LUT without applying the calibration (since the display is calibrated), it still has problems.
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post #63 of 96 Old 02-05-2017, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post
I know probably nobody's reading this LOL, but here's something else:

I tried to do a new profile with Argyll/DisplayCAL with all things identical except many more readings (4K+).

Same LUT generation parameters, full of garbage, esp in dark colors. I don't know if it's a DisplayCAL issue or because it think it has the data to try finer/darker adjustments or what. Even if I change the parameters and generate the LUT without applying the calibration (since the display is calibrated), it still has problems.
Haven't used Argyll in some time but when I did I got great results using it.
Make sure you have ASBL turned off, or software hack.
Use your High and Low RGB values set correctly, don't bother with a full RGB/grayscale calibration. Pay close attention to your Y (big Y) values, key is luma.
With my EF9500 I have brightness set at 51, contrast 78 and OLED light set at 42.
Warm 1, wide gamut but normal gamut will work fine also.
Also your meter may have a problem with reading very low light output readings.

ss

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post #64 of 96 Old 02-05-2017, 04:56 PM
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Make sure you have ASBL turned off, or software hack.
I don't know how to do that. I'd way prefer that to making sure I've got ABL patterns just right. Do you have a link or something for how to disable it for this display?

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With my EF9500 I have brightness set at 51, contrast 48 and OLED light set at 42.
Contrast at 48? In a previous post you said more like 78. Is that what you meant to type?


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Also your meter may have a problem with reading very low light output readings.
I did drop it in my beer a few weeks ago.

Just kidding!

It's the ubiquitous i1 Display Pro which is a relative cheapy but actually rates respectable in darks, that being the one advantage of a colorimeter. (I saw a comparison once where it out performed some expensive spectrometer in the darkest levels only). It also gives very stable readings from this display even at 5 IRE. However, for a few reasons I ordered a new one, (this one is like 4 years old), so we'll see if it does better.
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post #65 of 96 Old 02-05-2017, 05:45 PM
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I don't know how to do that. I'd way prefer that to making sure I've got ABL patterns just right. Do you have a link or something for how to disable it for this display?



Contrast at 48? In a previous post you said more like 78. Is that what you meant to type?




I did drop it in my beer a few weeks ago.

Just kidding!

It's the ubiquitous i1 Display Pro which is a relative cheapy but actually rates respectable in darks, that being the one advantage of a colorimeter. (I saw a comparison once where it out performed some expensive spectrometer in the darkest levels only). It also gives very stable readings from this display even at 5 IRE. However, for a few reasons I ordered a new one, (this one is like 4 years old), so we'll see if it does better.
OPPS I meant Contrast at 78.

This is what I use to disable ASBL. LG EF9500 Semi-Idle based dimming?

The how to use it is also in that page.

For ABL use the smallest window size and a black background.
I use a 4% window, and I guess it is ok to use a dark ABL background.

Yes a X-Rite i1Display Pro (D3) is the best bang for your buck, and yes a color meter like this one will be better for very low light reading that a spectro.

It always is better to make a meter profile using a light meter (I1Pro 2) as a reference meter for your color meter as your calibration meter.

I use a Jeti 1211 and a Klein K10-A meter.

ss

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post #66 of 96 Old 02-05-2017, 06:24 PM
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Just one more thing, that seems to be about the dimming that occurs to protect the display.

There is in fact, immediate ABL adjustment like a plasma. I believe I've tested that with AVHD, am I mixing up my displays?
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post #67 of 96 Old 02-06-2017, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post
Just one more thing, that seems to be about the dimming that occurs to protect the display.

There is in fact, immediate ABL adjustment like a plasma. I believe I've tested that with AVHD, am I mixing up my displays?
ABL isn't much of a issue when using the proper contrast and OLED Light along with a small triplet window. However there is some drift for 100% white, unlike a plasma that drifts down the OLED drifts up.
Most calibration software has a feature that avg your light output and corrects for drifting up or down.

ASBL is a issue when your meter reads dark patches.
When a screen is displayed for more than about 80 seconds the screen dims to protect against image retention.

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post #68 of 96 Old 02-06-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
ABL isn't much of a issue when using the proper contrast and OLED Light along with a small triplet window. However there is some drift for 100% white, unlike a plasma that drifts down the OLED drifts up.
Most calibration software has a feature that avg your light output and corrects for drifting up or down.

ASBL is a issue when your meter reads dark patches.
When a screen is displayed for more than about 80 seconds the screen dims to protect against image retention.

ss
Yeah I got my new meter and tried the "tiny" patterns you suggested and they had the same gamma response as giant ABL patterns. So I think you're right it's not really an issue.

The new meter helped a lot but there's still a lack of color resolution in saturated blues that looks vulgar when they're involved in gradients. That ConnecTED guy saw a question I had about it and asked me to send him my calib files and he's going to tell me what's wrong with them.
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post #69 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post
The new meter helped a lot but there's still a lack of color resolution in saturated blues that looks vulgar when they're involved in gradients. That ConnecTED guy saw a question I had about it and asked me to send him my calib files and he's going to tell me what's wrong with them.
Hi, I received your 3D LUT correction file generated from CalMAN, to investigate it, since CalMAN don't provide any tool for the user to be able to see what the correction is doing, which is a very important detail, the only way to locate problems or evaluate the performance is the take measurements with a meter, verify color reproduction patterns (this is why I have added about 150 Color Reproduction patterns to my calibration disk for that evaluation) or watch real content to see if there problems introduced that pretty dE reports are not showing. All that kind of verification takes some time, the measurements, the verification etc... if you have CalMAN only.

For me who has CalMAN but LightSpace also, since LightSpace has tools and you can import any 3D LUT correction table, I can locate the errors in cube generation in a few seconds, not only for those generated for my system but form any other user used any calibration solution and it's experiencing problems (like you).

There 3 ways to locate the problems, looking the: 1) 1D LUT Viewer of LightSpace, 2) Looking and rotating the 3D Cube Viewer, 3) using LUT Preview.



Looking the 1D LUT Viewer, I see that you have re reduction of green channel at your low end, this will impact your near black chromatity and reduction of near black luminance. Looking your RGB channels seems that you have pre-calibrated your display 20-point grayscale before running the 3D LUT, so since you have pre-calibrated 5% Gray also, this extra correction @ near black will provide more dE at your low end. You can very this by taking a 21-Point Grayscale run.



Looking the 1D LUT Viewer also, I see that the cLUT has dropped your peak output, so if had 130nits pre-calibrated, I estimate that you have about 110nits post-calibrated.

Your correction is not looking so smooth, I can spot points where calman has calibrated, so seems that it's focusing more to specific measured points only and not looking a lot about the linearity of the correction from point to point...but propably your pre-calibration of grayscale is responsible also for this non-linearity from point-to-point.



Looking the 3D LUT viewer I see that your blue has desaturated a lot (towards to inside the cube), it's obviously an error, because LG OLED never had so much oversaturated blue's by default to force calman to do such high desaturation. Also your Cyan top end (high luminance levels) have shifted a lot towards to blue.

Finally using the LUT Preview, you can load your own pictures and you can see how applying your correction is affecting the image. Here you have see the problems, if you have my calibration disk and you upload that correction to your eeColor and see the same patterns you will see the same results. Just that LUT Preview of LightSpace saves a lot of time to upload and verify manual from your player.





This is my help (using LightSpace tools) for you locate where you have problems, send the file that CalMAN generated to SpectraCAL also, among with the other files CalMAN creates during LUT generation to help them find locate what causing these issue.

Also take 10-Point Luminance run with eeColor at UNITY to see if there all good to your Cyan/Blue before running a new AutoCAL.



Also check with a 7-color clipping pattern, your problem is not visible with contrast pattern.

Using the Advanced Contrast Flashing Bars Pattern, you are checking:



Using the 7-Color Clipping Bars Pattern to prevent clipping of each color channel (WRGBCMY), this sometimes can be fixed be removing some additionally clicks from the contrast control also, you are checking these areas:


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post #70 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 05:43 AM
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post #71 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 05:45 AM
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These are some images where you can see the problem from your cLUT CalMAN generated.

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post #72 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 07:25 AM
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Ok, thank you - you've given me a lot to go through so I might not get time until this weekend to work on it. I will update this thread if I have any useful results.

I had previously done a meticulous 20 point calibration, but SillySally said it wasn't necessary for him so for this calibration I had only done a two point.

I can send the files to SpectraCal for help, but even if they find a problem I'm sure it will be fixed if I'm lucky in some new version maybe months from now and since this is for personal use I'd like it working sooner.

Is the file format for the eecolor 3D luts available for public? I'm a DSP programmer and am thinking about trying my own code to smooth the corrections. This seems like the type of problem we deal with constantly in audio but in video the developers maybe aren't so familiar with it. (When processing audio in realtime you must always compromise with the distortion introduced by making sudden or dramatic changes. I also wonder if they're exploiting the large LUT in the eecolor by doing an expensive interpolation over the points they sampled or if they're just linear interpolating corrections into the slots. I couldn't fix that though without generating my own tables - but just wonder.
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post #73 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 08:28 AM
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Ok, thank you - you've given me a lot to go through so I might not get time until this weekend to work on it. I will update this thread if I have any useful results.

I had previously done a meticulous 20 point calibration, but SillySally said it wasn't necessary for him so for this calibration I had only done a two point.
20-Point Grayscale pre-calibration doesn't required, only do 100% White Calibration using RGB-High controls only.

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I can send the files to SpectraCal for help, but even if they find a problem I'm sure it will be fixed if I'm lucky in some new version maybe months from now and since this is for personal use I'd like it working sooner.
You can send your files to SpectraCAL, but think that the latest CalMAN official software release (not beta) released @ 6th July 2016.

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Is the file format for the eecolor 3D luts available for public? I'm a DSP programmer and am thinking about trying my own code to smooth the corrections. This seems like the type of problem we deal with constantly in audio but in video the developers maybe aren't so familiar with it. (When processing audio in realtime you must always compromise with the distortion introduced by making sudden or dramatic changes. I also wonder if they're exploiting the large LUT in the eecolor by doing an expensive interpolation over the points they sampled or if they're just linear interpolating corrections into the slots. I couldn't fix that though without generating my own tables - but just wonder.
It's not that simple, they are not use simple tri-linear interpolations, smoothing only the areas you have problem doesn't mean that you calibrate them also. Have you tried CalMAN AutoCAL only once; which failed; or you have tried 2-3 times and always you get results with similar problems (at blue/cyan region)?

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post #74 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 09:00 AM
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Have you tried CalMAN AutoCAL only once; which failed; or you have tried 2-3 times and always you get results with similar problems (at blue/cyan region)?


With the blue problem I've tried everything including various pre-calibrations, pattern types and sizes, and even buying a new meter. I've noticed from Argyll that I see extra saturated blues where it should likely be more cyan but not sure I tested that for the problem we see. It could be that has the same problem but handles it better.


The only consistency probably is the computer I'm using to generate the patterns. I'm sure I set it to disable any/all graphics processing output from HDMI, but maybe it's time to question that device. I guess though if it's that device or the meter I should be able to find some test that shows me unexpected readings from blue/cyan colors. I'll look around at the available tests when I have another session with it. It seems like if it was a big fat bug in Calman there'd be other people complaining.
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post #75 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 09:04 AM
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With the blue problem I've tried everything including various pre-calibrations, pattern types and sizes, and even buying a new meter. I've noticed from Argyll that I see extra saturated blues where it should likely be more cyan but not sure I tested that for the problem we see. It could be that has the same problem but handles it better.


The only consistency probably is the computer I'm using to generate the patterns. I'm sure I set it to disable any/all graphics processing output from HDMI, but maybe it's time to question that device. I guess though if it's that device or the meter I should be able to find some test that shows me unexpected readings from blue/cyan colors. I'll look around at the available tests when I have another session with it. It seems like if it was a big fat bug in Calman there'd be other people complaining.
Try to measure with eeColor @ UNITY with CalMAN 10-Point Luminance runs, we will if you have the patch generation for blue/cyan there.

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post #76 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 11:14 AM
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I messed with it a little, (goofing off work), and I think I may have found the problem!!

I'll let you know when I complete a recalibration to prove...

...I think it's the meter correction file. It did indeed show that cyan was far too green and then way over compensated far too blue (in some levels). Then I noticed a difference in the white level with a different tool and so tried it without the OLED meter compensation and cyan looks normal.
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post #77 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 04:40 PM
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Well I got happy to soon. There must be a bug in Calman though I don't know why others haven't complained.

Even without the OLED "correction" that causes it to think cyan was too green, it moved (pure) cyan way over to blue.

I'm just going to live with it for a little while because it only seems to be an issue in heavy saturated cyan which doesn't occur in most content. The rest of the calibration looks great. TBH the only place I see it is when checking the TV input which I don't really watch. It's apparently trendy to do these decorative animated blue/cyan gradients as a background to sets and they show the error really bad. I never saw it in a movie or anything.

The next thing I'll try is setting the gamut to wide. I didn't do that because the regular test seems to indicate all colors in range in standard gamma and wide gamma is otherwise a mess. But since it only occurs in really pure (saturated) cyan maybe it's some bug in how they're trying to fit it.

I wish SpectraCal was actually a company that would fix bugs, but based on experience I don't even consider that as a solution - esp for a home user.
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post #78 of 96 Old 02-07-2017, 04:44 PM
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Also the reason I don't just use Argyll is because if I use more than ~1000 patches with that my calibration is full of all kinds of garbage. I get a visibly better calibration with Calman except with this pure cyan bug because I can use more patches.
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post #79 of 96 Old 02-08-2017, 09:12 AM
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Here I did a 20 pt grayscale with gamut wide and a "lightening LUT" to quick test the affect on CYAN.

Look where it put CYAN which was right in the box (not even outside like the others because of the wide gamut).

I have checked the larger calibration and it is very good by measure and view-test. Only pure full cyan has the glitch and this must almost certainly be a bug in Calman.
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post #80 of 96 Old 02-08-2017, 01:52 PM
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I hate to keep adding to this thread, but in case anyone runs across it while trying to solve similar problems...

It's finally working verified!

I believe there were two different problems and that's what caused some of the confusion.

First there IS a bug in Calman that causes my full, pure cyan to be very blue. Unless someone noticed that one dot off in a chart you might never run across it in content. I just happened to visual test using TV for lots of variety and some stations that used gradient background with cyan in them.

Second I think the meter that I replaced did have some problems. I think that because I went back to Argyll (displayCAL) and tried a larger number of points (3K) which always failed and caused artifacts and distortions. This time it worked.

I now have the best calibration I've ever seen, better than I thought possible. Of course it looks great, but every thing I could think to measure was shockingly accurate too! There were one or two spots in the color check that may have exceeded a DE but everything else was right in the slot.

Thanks for all the help @sillysally and @ConnecTEDDD .
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post #81 of 96 Old 02-10-2017, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post
I can send the files to SpectraCal for help, but even if they find a problem I'm sure it will be fixed if I'm lucky in some new version maybe months from now and since this is for personal use I'd like it working sooner.
Yes, send the files to SpectraCAL, this is why the users pay CalMAN annual fees for updates/support, SpectraCAL has provide you support when you experiencing problems. But looking your post @ SpectraCAL forum also, no-one has replied to you yet, except me.

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post #82 of 96 Old 02-10-2017, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post
I messed with it a little, (goofing off work), and I think I may have found the problem!!

I'll let you know when I complete a recalibration to prove...

...I think it's the meter correction file. It did indeed show that cyan was far too green and then way over compensated far too blue (in some levels). Then I noticed a difference in the white level with a different tool and so tried it without the OLED meter compensation and cyan looks normal.
About the OLED table which is coming with i1Display PRO, X-Rite has created that OLED table for RGB OLED displays like Sony Trimaster EL or FSI OLED Broadcast Monitors etc.

The LG OLED's are WRGB and their spectral response is different, you can fix that problem if you create a meter correction table using a spectro (i1PRO1/2 or meter).

Some users compared that OLED table with i1PRO spectroradiometer and found that the normal LCD mode of i1Display PRO is closer to the i1PRO readings, I have sold all my i1DisplayPRO's/C6 to make any test with my JETI and confirm that.

But when a meter profile is off, it's not possible to report a so different (clipping) at your Cyan's. You will have more info if you measure the native gamut of your display with 10-Point Luminance as I suggested above.

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post #83 of 96 Old 02-10-2017, 02:58 AM
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Here I did a 20 pt grayscale with gamut wide and a "lightening LUT" to quick test the affect on CYAN.

Look where it put CYAN which was right in the box (not even outside like the others because of the wide gamut).

I have checked the larger calibration and it is very good by measure and view-test. Only pure full cyan has the glitch and this must almost certainly be a bug in Calman.
Try to measure another 1-2 different displays (PC/Notenook for example) to see if you have problems with Cyan readings there also; to help you find if it's a meter issue.

Try also HCFR to see if the problem exist only when you use CalMAN.

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post #84 of 96 Old 02-10-2017, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Try to measure another 1-2 different displays (PC/Notenook for example) to see if you have problems with Cyan readings there also; to help you find if it's a meter issue.

Try also HCFR to see if the problem exist only when you use CalMAN.
The problem isn't even there in CalMAN unless measuring the output of the eecolor using the 3DLUT that it created. Even a lightning LUT has the issue.
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post #85 of 96 Old 02-10-2017, 07:07 AM
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The problem isn't even there in CalMAN unless measuring the output of the eecolor using the 3DLUT that it created. Even a lightning LUT has the issue.
Also since I saw from problems using LightSpace's Tools (1D LUT Viewer, 3D Cube Viewer, LUT Image Preview); this means that the problem you are facing is 100% software issue, we exclude the possibility that something inside eeColor is not working correctly because I see your problems from looking only your correction file.

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post #86 of 96 Old 02-10-2017, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Also since I saw from problems using LightSpace's Tools (1D LUT Viewer, 3D Cube Viewer, LUT Image Preview); this means that the problem you are facing is 100% software issue, we exclude the possibility that something inside eeColor is not working correctly because I see your problems from looking only your correction file.
BTW - I did have to write some code to fix the table generated by Argyll

It generated erroneous corrections in dark areas that I guess I didn't notice in my tests and didn't stand out visually until watching content at night in a dark room. The rest of it truly is perfect! I wrote a command line utility that interpolates from identity to the corrected values over 0 to specified Y. That seems to have fixed it from what I've seen so far. I'd prefer to just fix the cyan issue from Calman but they don't generate a table that I know how to process and burn.

(If anyone wants the source code they can have it. It's platform independent C++ with no dependencies, though I'm not sure I'm calculating Y correctly. You have to do it to a color space but the gamma specified for the LUT could be anything, so I just used sRGB because I already had code for that. I think of it as an approximation).
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post #87 of 96 Old 02-16-2017, 05:50 AM
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You can use BT.1886 with different exponents (called sliding gamma in CalMan) and manual black levels to tailor the curve coming out of black. Once you have a profile you can make as many luts as you want without re-profiling.

Can somebody show with screenshots how I can make this in CalMAN?
I have the latest Version and want to use different offsets.

Thanks
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post #88 of 96 Old 02-16-2017, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
About the OLED table which is coming with i1Display PRO, X-Rite has created that OLED table for RGB OLED displays like Sony Trimaster EL or FSI OLED Broadcast Monitors etc.

The LG OLED's are WRGB and their spectral response is different, you can fix that problem if you create a meter correction table using a spectro (i1PRO1/2 or meter).

Some users compared that OLED table with i1PRO spectroradiometer and found that the normal LCD mode of i1Display PRO is closer to the i1PRO readings, I have sold all my i1DisplayPRO's/C6 to make any test with my JETI and confirm that.

But when a meter profile is off, it's not possible to report a so different (clipping) at your Cyan's. You will have more info if you measure the native gamut of your display with 10-Point Luminance as I suggested above.
If you are going through all this work to calibrate your set, you should be profiling your meter to the OLED because when you do, you will see just how far the i1d3 is off because it's probably not reading your OLED as accurately as you think with any of the default display profiles.

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post #89 of 96 Old 02-16-2017, 07:04 AM
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Can somebody show with screenshots how I can make this in CalMAN?
I have the latest Version and want to use different offsets.

Thanks
Hey my friend, good to see you here
You have an eecolor again???
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post #90 of 96 Old 02-16-2017, 08:07 AM
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Hey my friend, good to see you here
You have an eecolor again???
Hey buddy yes that's right I can't accept the wrong colors of my E6 anymore
I ordered one again from Ted's site and the box it's on his way to me.

Yesterday it arrived at the Airport in Frankfurt so I hope I can run my first LUT on my OLED this Weekend
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