Sony XBR-X940D CalMAN Calibration Discussion - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I ran a fresh calibration this evening with several changes:

- I used the LED BG display setting.
- I left the local dimming control at Medium.
- I left the bias lighting on.

The 2-point grayscale settings changed slightly, probably due to the LED RG setting.

I also delved into the 10-point White Balance settings. Once I got the hang of it, using these settings is reasonably easy, but time consuming. I was able to improve RGB balance, as you can see in the results below. The DeltaE 2000 scores are quite low, and the gamma tracking is as good as it has ever been. The target dots in the CIE 1931 xy are close to being spot-on. The only PITA during the process is accidentally hitting the wrong key on the Sony remote--I hate this remote.

Results (I don't know how I can get any better):

Color Temp spot-on!



Luminance:



2-Point Grayscale:



Multipoint Grayscale:



Color management System:




My new settings are linked in my sig.
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Last edited by AustinJerry; 11-05-2016 at 06:52 AM.
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post #32 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here are pics of the 100% White test pattern with the meter resting on the screen:






I measured Luminance in both cases, and the presence of the TV setting adjustment box does not alter the luminance at all. Are you using Spears&Munsil Test Patterns?
I'm using Mobile Forge from Spectracal running on Amazon Fire TV, did you have your Local Dimming on?
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post #33 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I ran a fresh calibration this evening with several changes:

- I used the LED RG display setting.
- I left the local dimming control at Medium.
- I left the bias lighting on.

The 2-point grayscale settings changed slightly, probably due to the LED RG setting.
You mean BG right? If so may want to edit that so people don't get confused reading this in the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I also delved into the 10-point White Balance settings. Once I got the hang of it, using these settings is reasonably easy, but time consuming. I was able to improve RGB balance, as you can see in the results below. The DeltaE 2000 scores are quite low, and the gamma tracking is as good as it has ever been. The target dots in the CIE 1931 xy are close to being spot-on. The only PITA during the process is accidentally hitting the wrong key on the Sony remote--I hate this remote.

Results (I don't know how I can get any better):
Spoiler!


My new settings are linked in my sig.
Oh that is PRETTY! Very nice! Glad to know the set can get THAT good ... my cal time this weekend is going to be extremely limited, so I'll probably just throw your new settings in there and do some readings if I get a chance to see how they work on my set and if any additional tweaking is needed for it!
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post #34 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post
You mean BG right? If so may want to edit that so people don't get confused reading this in the future



Oh that is PRETTY! Very nice! Glad to know the set can get THAT good ... my cal time this weekend is going to be extremely limited, so I'll probably just throw your new settings in there and do some readings if I get a chance to see how they work on my set and if any additional tweaking is needed for it!
Typo has been fixed, thanks. And thanks for the tips on how to use the 10-point adjustments. I never thought it was that intuitive, so I never bothered to go there. I am trusting that by the time I decide on a UHD/HDR player, you will have mastered the HDR calibration procedures.
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post #35 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
I'm using Mobile Forge from Spectracal running on Amazon Fire TV, did you have your Local Dimming on?
Yes. I am happy with the results of the exercise, otherwise it would be a PITA to have to back out of the menu for every tweak.

Edit: BTW, I need to evaluate MobileForge. Do you have, or have you tried the Spears&Munsil disk?

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post #36 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 07:03 AM
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I am trusting that by the time I decide on a UHD/HDR player, you will have mastered the HDR calibration procedures.
Well from the sounds of what everyone is saying everywhere I ask, nothing can be done for HDR mode ... I refuse to believe it though, and my RGB lines don't line up on my balance graph, so I determined to get them to!
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post #37 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post
Well from the sounds of what everyone is saying everywhere I ask, nothing can be done for HDR mode ... I refuse to believe it though, and my RGB lines don't line up on my balance graph, so I determined to get them to!
If all HDR mode is doing is maximizing contrast and brightness, and turning on several features like X-tended Dynamic Range and Advanced Color Temp, then it is quite possible that White Balance settings remain valid/unchanged. Of course, until I can generate a HDR test pattern, I have no way of knowing.

Do you have that RGB balance dip in your non-HDR calibration? IMO, that is what needs the work, as you have already said. Good luck!
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post #38 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If all HDR mode is doing is maximizing contrast and brightness, and turning on several features like X-tended Dynamic Range and Advanced Color Temp, then it is quite possible that White Balance settings remain valid/unchanged. Of course, until I can generate a HDR test pattern, I have no way of knowing.

Do you have that RGB balance dip in your non-HDR calibration? IMO, that is what needs the work, as you have already said. Good luck!
Different gamma formula for HDR so even if it does carry over I'm guessing it'll need tweaking :-/

No dip in SDR no, that's the soft rolloff at the top of the sets output level ... SDR doesn't come near that and even if it did I'm not sure if it would engage ...

There's test patterns for specific nit levels in that set ... If I find some time I can probably create a worksheet to map the 940d's specific roll-off charteristics ... If there's enough and granular enough patterns from ~600-1000 nits (or whereever the rolloff ends)

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post #39 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes. I am happy with the results of the exercise, otherwise it would be a PITA to have to back out of the menu for every tweak.

Edit: BTW, I need to evaluate MobileForge. Do you have, or have you tried the Spears&Munsil disk?
I have not, I don't have the disk. I think Mobile Forge might be a bit buggy, then again it is new. Oh, when you use mobile forge, make sure Expand to PC level is check in your Spectracal, under Mobile forge tab. I don't know why they make you check the box, but if you un-check it the reading is way off. Document for mobile forge said you have to check it, I think they should of rename it to something less confusing.
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post #40 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
I have not, I don't have the disk. I think Mobile Forge might be a bit buggy, then again it is new. Oh, when you use mobile forge, make sure Expand to PC level is check in your Spectracal, under Mobile forge tab. I don't know why they make you check the box, but if you un-check it the reading is way off. Document for mobile forge said you have to check it, I think they should of rename it to something less confusing.
No option to output video levels from MobileForge?

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post #41 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
I have not, I don't have the disk. I think Mobile Forge might be a bit buggy, then again it is new. Oh, when you use mobile forge, make sure Expand to PC level is check in your Spectracal, under Mobile forge tab. I don't know why they make you check the box, but if you un-check it the reading is way off. Document for mobile forge said you have to check it, I think they should of rename it to something less confusing.
This disk is reasonably priced, and IMO, a very valuable addition to your tool kit. For example, there are test patterns that allow you to observe the different effects of the various motion control settings, and are useful to dial in the settings for Custom motion control.

The number of tests on the disk is almost overwhelming, many of which I have no idea how to use. But the in-line help, accessed by a simple click of the Up arrow, is very informative. And the disk navigation is simple and intuitive, not something I can say about other disks like Video Essentials. S&M is highly recommended.
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post #42 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
This disk is reasonably priced, and IMO, a very valuable addition to your tool kit. For example, there are test patterns that allow you to observe the different effects of the various motion control settings, and are useful to dial in the settings for Custom motion control.

The number of tests on the disk is almost overwhelming, many of which I have no idea how to use. But the in-line help, accessed by a simple click of the Up arrow, is very informative. And the disk navigation is simple and intuitive, not something I can say about other disks like Video Essentials. S&M is highly recommended.

Hi.
One nice thing to do is to check the greyramp so there is no miscolorasation in there,nasty dip-peaks can occur between adjustable points for instance 30-40 at 35 there might be some fault so to speak,but that will not show because you messured 30 and 40 so check greyramp if its god,if not there might be some fault in between your check points.
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post #43 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi.
One nice thing to do is to check the greyramp so there is no miscolorasation in there,nasty dip-peaks can occur between adjustable points for instance 30-40 at 35 there might be some fault so to speak,but that will not show because you messured 30 and 40 so check greyramp if its god,if not there might be some fault in between your check points.
It would be more helpful if you referenced a specific test pattern. "Grayramp" is not the name of any test on the Spears&Munsil disk. So, while I would like to follow up on your recommendation, I can't do anything without knowing where to find the test pattern.

And if I were to see an issue, how does one go about adjusting at the midpoint between two of the settings in a 10-point range?
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post #44 of 220 Old 11-05-2016, 09:53 PM
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It would be more helpful if you referenced a specific test pattern. "Grayramp" is not the name of any test on the Spears&Munsil disk. So, while I would like to follow up on your recommendation, I can't do anything without knowing where to find the test pattern.

And if I were to see an issue, how does one go about adjusting at the midpoint between two of the settings in a 10-point range?


Hi Jerry:

Sorry for bad explanation,i dont have the SM on hand but if you try the AVSHD disc it will be the first pattern that will come up when you chose "Misc patterns" from the start menu,it goes from Bright to dark and the greyramp should look smooth without any colorasation or any other artifect.

If you see any colorasation you have to interpolate,say you notice some redish in a narrow band on the grayramp,first is to figure out where it is, for instance 45 then bring up the RGB balance on the sony that will be 4 (for 40) or 5 (for 50),while there try lower R one click while watching the greyramp,was it better or worse? you might even want to try B and G one click up or down,this is time consuming but fun when you get the hang of it,this might rise your errors at 40 or 50 but removes nasty peak and dips that are visible ,so better with a smooth greyramp than chasing lowest numbers possible in the program,also on the avshd disc you have patterns with 5% increasement try it out with calman (gear Icon-workflow basic options-greyscale Points-chose 21 or 23 Point)
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post #45 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 05:14 AM
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Something is not right with my calibration, I got 2pt adjustment dialed in. Then when I read 10-100IRE the lower end luminance is brighter than the higher end and when I do 10 point adjustment then 9pt affects 100IRE 8pt affects 90IRE so basically I lost control on 10Pt adjustment. I am very confused at this point.
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post #46 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Something is not right with my calibration, I got 2pt adjustment dialed in. Then when I read 10-100IRE the lower end luminance is brighter than the higher end and when I do 10 point adjustment then 9pt affects 100IRE 8pt affects 90IRE so basically I lost control on 10Pt adjustment. I am very confused at this point.
Here is the procedure I followed. Let's see where things went differently for you.

1. On the Multipoint grayscale screen, run the full 10-point measurements to establish the baseline DeltaE 2000 readings.
2. Pick a reading that needs adjustment, say 50%. Then click on the 50% box at the bottom of the screen.
3. On the TV, scroll to the 50% adjustment.
4. Now click "Read Once", and you should be prompted to display the 50% White test pattern.
5. Display the 50% White test pattern from your source.
6. Click OK on the prompt to read the test pattern.
7. Adjust the Red, Green or Blue offsets based on the reading.
8. Click "Read Once" again, observe the change in the 50% bar in the DeltaE 2000 readings.
9. Repeat the process until the DeltaE 2000 bar has been minimized.
10. Repeat the entire process for other DeltaE readings that are high, minimizing each one as best as you can.
11. After you have addressed all the bars that need adjusting, go back and re-read each bar (because they may affect each other), and fine-tune as necessary.
12. Done.

@Polaris75 , is this the same procedure you used?
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post #47 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a slightly different confusion. After following the procedure that I outlined in the previous post, I repeated the complete 10-point measurement series on the Multipoint Grayscale screen. The DeltaE 2000 readings were slightly different (worse) than the readings I was observing when doing the individual adjustments. Do I need to keep going back and forth so that the minimized adjustments "stick"? At some point, I expect the law of diminishing returns to kick in.
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post #48 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Hi Jerry:

Sorry for bad explanation,i dont have the SM on hand but if you try the AVSHD disc it will be the first pattern that will come up when you chose "Misc patterns" from the start menu,it goes from Bright to dark and the greyramp should look smooth without any colorasation or any other artifect.

If you see any colorasation you have to interpolate,say you notice some redish in a narrow band on the grayramp,first is to figure out where it is, for instance 45 then bring up the RGB balance on the sony that will be 4 (for 40) or 5 (for 50),while there try lower R one click while watching the greyramp,was it better or worse? you might even want to try B and G one click up or down,this is time consuming but fun when you get the hang of it,this might rise your errors at 40 or 50 but removes nasty peak and dips that are visible ,so better with a smooth greyramp than chasing lowest numbers possible in the program,also on the avshd disc you have patterns with 5% increasement try it out with calman (gear Icon-workflow basic options-greyscale Points-chose 21 or 23 Point)
Thank you. I have the AVSHD test disk as well, so I'll conduct this test to see how things look.
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post #49 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 06:52 AM
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Something is not right with my calibration, I got 2pt adjustment dialed in. Then when I read 10-100IRE the lower end luminance is brighter than the higher end and when I do 10 point adjustment then 9pt affects 100IRE 8pt affects 90IRE so basically I lost control on 10Pt adjustment. I am very confused at this point.
Seems like an s-gamma curve,in 2 point lower all 3 (rgb) one or two notches for low and meassure 10 point again,some tv's seems to not correspond to the exact number vs ire.
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post #50 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is the procedure I followed. Let's see where things went differently for you.

1. On the Multipoint grayscale screen, run the full 10-point measurements to establish the baseline DeltaE 2000 readings.
2. Pick a reading that needs adjustment, say 50%. Then click on the 50% box at the bottom of the screen.
3. On the TV, scroll to the 50% adjustment.
4. Now click "Read Once", and you should be prompted to display the 50% White test pattern.
5. Display the 50% White test pattern from your source.
6. Click OK on the prompt to read the test pattern.
7. Adjust the Red, Green or Blue offsets based on the reading.
8. Click "Read Once" again, observe the change in the 50% bar in the DeltaE 2000 readings.
9. Repeat the process until the DeltaE 2000 bar has been minimized.
10. Repeat the entire process for other DeltaE readings that are high, minimizing each one as best as you can.
11. After you have addressed all the bars that need adjusting, go back and re-read each bar (because they may affect each other), and fine-tune as necessary.
12. Done.

@Polaris75 , is this the same procedure you used?
Pretty much, except as I mentioned (somewhere) 10-point changes typically spill over, so when I make a change to 50%, I'll re-read 40, 50 and 60 ...

If you install CalMan Client 3 on a PC and use one of the monitor workflows and autocal 10-point (so long as your monitor supports 10-point via DDC) you can observe the basic process/idea in super speed, it's pretty neat ... You'll see it change 20, read 10-30, if everything went in the right direction, adjust 30, read 20-40, then adjust 20, 30 or 40, depending where things stand... Etc.

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post #51 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 07:38 AM
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I have a slightly different confusion. After following the procedure that I outlined in the previous post, I repeated the complete 10-point measurement series on the Multipoint Grayscale screen. The DeltaE 2000 readings were slightly different (worse) than the readings I was observing when doing the individual adjustments. Do I need to keep going back and forth so that the minimized adjustments "stick"? At some point, I expect the law of diminishing returns to kick in.
Yep, as I said, they spill over, so if you just go bang them all out after one read and then re-read, some of your changes will be amplified and some will be cancelled out at some points ... it's a real pain ... that's why you read about calibrations taking 4-8 hours ... and that's why aside from playing around with it, it's best to leave a hardcore 10-point until after the "break-in" period (which you are already past, but I am not.)
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Here's my 50th recalibration, I did everything thing as you can see. Then I went back to check the brightness and had to bump it up 1 notch, and I check Grayramp and it seem to be tracking pretty good. I test some movies out using on TV Netflix UHD contents. not sure if Netflix over saturate their content. I'll have to play some 4k Bluray tomorrow to compare.

I'm pretty satisfied for now, until I see something I don't like. I swear my eyes is like a Colorimeter now. I'll whip out my I1Display Pro 2 enhance to check on color later when I have time.
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post #53 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post
Pretty much, except as I mentioned (somewhere) 10-point changes typically spill over, so when I make a change to 50%, I'll re-read 40, 50 and 60 ...

If you install CalMan Client 3 on a PC and use one of the monitor workflows and autocal 10-point (so long as your monitor supports 10-point via DDC) you can observe the basic process/idea in super speed, it's pretty neat ... You'll see it change 20, read 10-30, if everything went in the right direction, adjust 30, read 20-40, then adjust 20, 30 or 40, depending where things stand... Etc.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
With MobileForge (free) you install it on Amazon Fire Stick ($40) and plug it into the tv, then you can link it to Calman and every time you click read series or click any pattern boxes, mobileforge will display it on screen automatically. Only down side is that spectracal didn't included basic Brightness, Contrast pattern like AVS709 disc
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post #54 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
Here's my 50th recalibration, I did everything thing as you can see. Then I went back to check the brightness and had to bump it up 1 notch, and I check Grayramp and it seem to be tracking pretty good. I test some movies out using on TV Netflix UHD contents. not sure if Netflix over saturate their content. I'll have to play some 4k Bluray tomorrow to compare.

I'm pretty satisfied for now, until I see something I don't like. I swear my eyes is like a Colorimeter now. I'll whip out my I1Display Pro 2 enhance to check on color later when I have time.
VERY nice!

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post #55 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's my 50th recalibration, I did everything thing as you can see. Then I went back to check the brightness and had to bump it up 1 notch, and I check Grayramp and it seem to be tracking pretty good. I test some movies out using on TV Netflix UHD contents. not sure if Netflix over saturate their content. I'll have to play some 4k Bluray tomorrow to compare.

I'm pretty satisfied for now, until I see something I don't like. I swear my eyes is like a Colorimeter now. I'll whip out my I1Display Pro 2 enhance to check on color later when I have time.
Looks pretty darn good to me.
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post #56 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post
Pretty much, except as I mentioned (somewhere) 10-point changes typically spill over, so when I make a change to 50%, I'll re-read 40, 50 and 60 ...

If you install CalMan Client 3 on a PC and use one of the monitor workflows and autocal 10-point (so long as your monitor supports 10-point via DDC) you can observe the basic process/idea in super speed, it's pretty neat ... You'll see it change 20, read 10-30, if everything went in the right direction, adjust 30, read 20-40, then adjust 20, 30 or 40, depending where things stand... Etc.

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You said a bunch of things I didn't follow. Are you saying that with the correct version of CalMAN configured properly, the 10-point calibration can be automated? I didn't think CalMAN supported automation for this display.

I would like to receive some clarification, please.
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post #57 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You said a bunch of things I didn't follow. Are you saying that with the correct version of CalMAN configured properly, the 10-point calibration can be automated? I didn't think CalMAN supported automation for this display.

I would like to receive some clarification, please.
A PC (or any display) calibration can be automated if the display supports DDC (which every monitor I've ever seen does) ... So if you do a cal on the very system's display that you're using to cal your TV, you can observe an autocal to get a feel for the process (Edit: Oh, and you need to install CalMan Client 3 on the PC being calibrated to be able to do an autocal)

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post #58 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 09:28 AM
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Wow, stock(ish) settings I get a CT of 6773 (not bad) and a gamma of 2.3 with XDR off ... XDR on low gives me a gamma of 3.5!! Guess I'm calibrating with that off, lol

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post #59 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
I have not, I don't have the disk. I think Mobile Forge might be a bit buggy, then again it is new. Oh, when you use mobile forge, make sure Expand to PC level is check in your Spectracal, under Mobile forge tab. I don't know why they make you check the box, but if you un-check it the reading is way off. Document for mobile forge said you have to check it, I think they should of rename it to something less confusing.
I just downloaded MobileForge, configured it, and got it working. I haven't actually tried a calibration yet, which I will do this evening. It is an interesting capability, especially the automation of the series readings. I will be interested to see if the results using MobileForge test screens are the same as with the Spears&Munsil screens. If the results are different, that would concern me, i.e which is correct? We'll see later today.
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post #60 of 220 Old 11-06-2016, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post
Wow, stock(ish) settings I get a CT of 6773 (not bad) and a gamma of 2.3 with XDR off ... XDR on low gives me a gamma of 3.5!! Guess I'm calibrating with that off, lol

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What are stockish settings?
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